Making off without payment
Discussion
This is by way of an academic question:
I got home this evening to find an envelope on the mat from the local police station. Cue pounding heart as I tried to remember where I'd missed the batsrad scammer van. Anyway, it turned out that the envelope contained a form stating MAKING OFF WITHOUT PAYMENT, naming me as the registered keeper, and saying that:
"the vehicle was used to obtain fuel to the value of * £ <"far too bloody much"> from <"local filling station">.
The asterisk(*) diverted attention to the bottom of the page where the dealing BiB had written a note to the effect that I had:
"inadvertantly paid for the wrong pump". and "I had paid £11 rather than the whopping amount the Rangie takes at fill up".
Elsewhere on the form, I am threatened with all sorts of dire retribution under the theft act, and that old "obtaining money with menaces", Section 172 of the RTA 1988. (S172=automatic piss boiling, I'm afraid)
Anyway, now that 'Er Indoors has got home, we've checked the CC statement, and I was indeed charged £11 (£11.01 actually), so I'm quite happy to toddle off down to the garage and hand over the difference.
So, my academic question is (finally): As I handed my card over in good faith, and they took the amount they wanted to, surely it's their mistake! Note, the pump numbers at this particular garage used to be a bit difficult to see, so I usually tell the till wallah "the Range Rover" when asked which pump. Also, I always fill up to £xx.76, so if I'd been asked for some other pence amount, or the C&P screen had shown some other amount I'd've queried it.
I reiterate, I'll be paying up, so no fitting your high horse with stilts and scrambling aboard please
I doubt that any offence has been commited so their S172 request is unlawful.
You did not get petrol with intent not to pay so I can't see a charge of theft sticking. Go back and pay and that should be the end of the matter unless they want to persue the S172 so you may want to fill it up and send it back.
You did not get petrol with intent not to pay so I can't see a charge of theft sticking. Go back and pay and that should be the end of the matter unless they want to persue the S172 so you may want to fill it up and send it back.
Seems rather heavy handed. I wouldn't notice either. I never check the amount I'm paying for just enter PIN or sign. Very bad form I know but life's too short!
I would make a big thing at the petrol station that it was clearly not your fault that they took the wrong amount and let them know your displeasure at involving the Police. I know they would have difficulty in tracing you without the Police but surely it could have been handled better. Perhaps they could have contacted your credit card company?
I would make a big thing at the petrol station that it was clearly not your fault that they took the wrong amount and let them know your displeasure at involving the Police. I know they would have difficulty in tracing you without the Police but surely it could have been handled better. Perhaps they could have contacted your credit card company?
Now suppose that you went in to pay and the attendant did not ask which pump you used, simply asked for £11.01. He is making a mistake. However, I don't think that you need to tell him (you are a git if you don't) but legally the offence of common law cheat was removed by the 1968 theft act, aside from the public purse.
Not clear to me that any offence has been committed.
If you tell the attendant the wrong pump number then that is possibly deception (if you meant to do it).
Not clear to me that any offence has been committed.
If you tell the attendant the wrong pump number then that is possibly deception (if you meant to do it).
I usually just say yes to whatever the cashier says it's gonna cost me and pump number, and have never given it a thought that one day I could end up paying for someone elses fuel. 
I should double check, but I often don't, and the same goes with bank statements.
A lesson to be learn't I guess.
I should double check, but I often don't, and the same goes with bank statements.
A lesson to be learn't I guess.
eliminator said:
Not clear to me that any offence has been committed.
Perhaps no offense in law, but the OP is right to pay anyway, firstly because it's the morally right thing to do, secondly because getting blacklisted as a non-payer could turn out to be *really* awkward if it came to that.
ean218 said:
I wonder what happened to the person asked to pay £<"far too bloody much">, rather than the £11 they really owed.
Presumably as their petrol was already paid for and there was no way they were paying £<"far too bloody much">, did they pay anything at all??
Presumably as their petrol was already paid for and there was no way they were paying £<"far too bloody much">, did they pay anything at all??
That'll be how the mistake was recognised - £11.01 was paid, followed by chap being asked for <"far too bloody much">, and rightly baulking at the suggestion. Then the staff member realising that they'd billed the wrong person, who was just driving off in their range rover.
Curious that the council and parking companies can get your address, but the police can't give it to a petrol station in order to avoid a "crime" being reported.
Will be interested to hear how this pans out - and hope there's no ill consequences for what seems an honest mistake.
(Is there not a counter-charge of money by deception, as the garage took your £11.01 that they weren't entitled to - as it was somebody elses bill?!? Probably not.)
ean218 said:
I wonder what happened to the person asked to pay £<"far too bloody much">, rather than the £11 they really owed.
Presumably as their petrol was already paid for and there was no way they were paying £<"far too bloody much">, did they pay anything at all??
Presumably as their petrol was already paid for and there was no way they were paying £<"far too bloody much">, did they pay anything at all??
Interestingly, I've been that other person. Having a small tank, it was a bargain for the other motorist to pay for my pump and drive off whilst I was nose-deep in the scotch egg section of the fridge, contemplating whether the coffee machine produced liquid worth drinking or suitable only for re-surfacing the carriageway.
I enquired whether that meant I didn't have to pay, since he'd paid for mine.
Sadly the cashier didn't agree with this position. I don't know if the other driver was pursued for the difference.
I guess the issue here, and probably why it's gone all legal is:
"I had paid £11 rather than the whopping amount the Rangie takes at fill up".
If they'd both been more average amounts - ie you'd paid maybe £35 instead of £45 - then my guess is it wouldn't have gone any further.
However if "whopping" is £70 or so, and you where asked for £11, then the view is probably that, with reasonable care, you ought to have noticed this.
I'm not saying the same wouldn't have happened to me - we used to use fuel cards and I was - still am - very blase about the process (we used to get some horrendous errors on the fuel card statements).
cmsapms said:
"I had paid £11 rather than the whopping amount the Rangie takes at fill up".
If they'd both been more average amounts - ie you'd paid maybe £35 instead of £45 - then my guess is it wouldn't have gone any further.
However if "whopping" is £70 or so, and you where asked for £11, then the view is probably that, with reasonable care, you ought to have noticed this.
I'm not saying the same wouldn't have happened to me - we used to use fuel cards and I was - still am - very blase about the process (we used to get some horrendous errors on the fuel card statements).
Probably 80-90% of our drive off obs are the result of similar mistakes.
Generally the person will buy fuel, then buy his Werther Originals, then tenders his card. The assistant puts the Werthers on the card then driver drives off.
We stop said driver 10 miles up the motorway and establish what has happened. The situation is usually resolved either by driver returning to pay the difference or us phoning the petrol station with his credit card number.
If we don't find the car initially we often get an exaggerated version of the 'crime' from the petrol station, to try to encourage us to see it as a crime rather than a civil matter.
This is probably the reason for the format of the letter, which would obviously result in a follow up knock on the door if the payment wasn't made.
Generally the person will buy fuel, then buy his Werther Originals, then tenders his card. The assistant puts the Werthers on the card then driver drives off.
We stop said driver 10 miles up the motorway and establish what has happened. The situation is usually resolved either by driver returning to pay the difference or us phoning the petrol station with his credit card number.
If we don't find the car initially we often get an exaggerated version of the 'crime' from the petrol station, to try to encourage us to see it as a crime rather than a civil matter.
This is probably the reason for the format of the letter, which would obviously result in a follow up knock on the door if the payment wasn't made.
As someone above said, it is a rather heavy handed way to deal with a pretty obvious mistake. Don't worry about any come back as it should seem pretty simple to argue that you didn't have the intention to evade payment. However, as for who's mistake it was, I'm sure you'll notice that every checkout operator uses the same phrase (doubtless drummed intothem for just such a reason) 'Please check the amount and enter your PIN'.
Probably the only reason the Police were involved at all was to trace you through your credit card details.
Our taxes efficiently put to work - 3 hours of Police time at a conservative £150 per hour to recover a £40 underpayment which could easily have been managed the next time you popped in to the filling station. (But then, like all PH members, you're a decent, respectable, upright member of society and not the usual knife-weilding mindless chav who tends to make off without payment).
Probably the only reason the Police were involved at all was to trace you through your credit card details.
Our taxes efficiently put to work - 3 hours of Police time at a conservative £150 per hour to recover a £40 underpayment which could easily have been managed the next time you popped in to the filling station. (But then, like all PH members, you're a decent, respectable, upright member of society and not the usual knife-weilding mindless chav who tends to make off without payment).
IaHa said:
The situation is usually resolved either by driver returning to pay the difference or us phoning the petrol station with his credit card number.
Given the proportion of credit card fraud that originates in petrol station , there is no way I would phone up with my credit card number. If I had time, I would go back. If I did not have time, I would supply name and address and tell them to bill me.Zod said:
IaHa said:
The situation is usually resolved either by driver returning to pay the difference or us phoning the petrol station with his credit card number.
Given the proportion of credit card fraud that originates in petrol station , there is no way I would phone up with my credit card number. If I had time, I would go back. If I did not have time, I would supply name and address and tell them to bill me.Agreed, nobody is yelling my details down a mobile hone for some spotty-oik in a garage to read back to them!
When paying for petrol I always have a good idea how much I've put in. After all I know how long I have been standing there waiting for it to fill up, and I'm sure at some point you look at the pump to check the cost! I suspect you also glance at the amount shown when you type in your PIN number (if you honestly don't you really need to start doing this… ).
I think you just thought "bonus, their mistake" and happily paid the lower amount. This happens all the time at places like supermarkets/shops when something costs less than you expected and we're all guilty of not questioning this and accepting the lower amount. It's easy to think 'their mistake' and just carry on. Where as on the other hand how many of us accept a higher than expected amount without questioning it?
With a difference of likely £40/50 the petrol station may have thought you were trying it on? If you just go to the garage and pay the difference I doubt you will ever hear anything about it again.
I think you just thought "bonus, their mistake" and happily paid the lower amount. This happens all the time at places like supermarkets/shops when something costs less than you expected and we're all guilty of not questioning this and accepting the lower amount. It's easy to think 'their mistake' and just carry on. Where as on the other hand how many of us accept a higher than expected amount without questioning it?
With a difference of likely £40/50 the petrol station may have thought you were trying it on? If you just go to the garage and pay the difference I doubt you will ever hear anything about it again.
Edited by bus_ter on Tuesday 12th September 12:30
bus_ter said:
I think you just thought "bonus, their mistake" and happily paid the lower amount. This happens all the time at places like supermarkets/shops when something costs less than you expected and we're all guilty of not questioning this and accepting the lower amount. It's easy to think 'their mistake' and just carry on. Where as on the other hand how many of us accept a higher than expected amount without questioning it?
"Mistakes cannot be rectified afterwards" - thats the sign that has saved shop owners a fortune (and a load of hassle) over the years as people leave the counter only to find they've been diddled (oo-er).
If the payment was in good faith, then fair enough, although it does seem unlikely to really not have noticed the amount that was displayed on the machine.
Makes up for all the 1p's that get added on after you've taken the nozzle out of the car though!
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