Am I mad - track car thoughts ...
Discussion
So, as some of you may recall I have a 993 that has just had a rather expensive engine rebuild, together with some optional, err, additions to make it a bit more of a track focused car - eg RS LSD.
However, a recent trip to the Ring (and other track days) has made me realise that there are some limitations to this car as a track machine, not least the fact that I'd be mildly miffed if I stacked it totally, but also the driving position is proving problematic. For road driving the driving position is absolutely spot on, but on the track, esp. with a helmet, I'm finding it a bit cramped.
When I bought the car, tracking it was not in the forefront of my mind and as a consequence it isn't (wasn't) perfectly specc'd as a track car, for example it has a sunroof, which I could just as well do without.
However, I'm keen to do more track days, and in particular more visits to the Ring.
So it seems to me I have a few options:
1. spend more on this car and make it better as a track car - bucket(s), harness(es), possibly a cage, etc. would probably be the main improvements - but this is also a "fun" second car for the family and right now we can all (four of us) go out in it; buckets, cage and harnesses might make this a little challenging ...
2. sell the 993 and buy a "real" track car - the LHD GT3 at Northway's is raising some impure thoughts, but the same problems with point 1. above would apply only in spades; also the return on my 993 would in no way compensate for the money invested, and it is now just about perfect for me (except for the track business ...)
3. keep the 993 and buy another car as a dedicated track toy and strip it, fit buckets, harnesses and a roll cage, however, the downsides to this are manifold:
3.1. I have nowhere to keep a third car;
3.2. I really can't justify another 911 so it would probably be a 944 (or similar - suggestions please), not in itself a bad thing (as I love 'em) but one reason for tracking my car is to improve my overall car handling and driving abilities - will my driving (ie of the 993) get as much out of tracking a 944 as a 911?
3.3 my wife will absolutely crucify me, probably twice
At the moment I favour 3. but thoughts and advice welcome.
However, a recent trip to the Ring (and other track days) has made me realise that there are some limitations to this car as a track machine, not least the fact that I'd be mildly miffed if I stacked it totally, but also the driving position is proving problematic. For road driving the driving position is absolutely spot on, but on the track, esp. with a helmet, I'm finding it a bit cramped.
When I bought the car, tracking it was not in the forefront of my mind and as a consequence it isn't (wasn't) perfectly specc'd as a track car, for example it has a sunroof, which I could just as well do without.
However, I'm keen to do more track days, and in particular more visits to the Ring.
So it seems to me I have a few options:
1. spend more on this car and make it better as a track car - bucket(s), harness(es), possibly a cage, etc. would probably be the main improvements - but this is also a "fun" second car for the family and right now we can all (four of us) go out in it; buckets, cage and harnesses might make this a little challenging ...
2. sell the 993 and buy a "real" track car - the LHD GT3 at Northway's is raising some impure thoughts, but the same problems with point 1. above would apply only in spades; also the return on my 993 would in no way compensate for the money invested, and it is now just about perfect for me (except for the track business ...)
3. keep the 993 and buy another car as a dedicated track toy and strip it, fit buckets, harnesses and a roll cage, however, the downsides to this are manifold:
3.1. I have nowhere to keep a third car;
3.2. I really can't justify another 911 so it would probably be a 944 (or similar - suggestions please), not in itself a bad thing (as I love 'em) but one reason for tracking my car is to improve my overall car handling and driving abilities - will my driving (ie of the 993) get as much out of tracking a 944 as a 911?
3.3 my wife will absolutely crucify me, probably twice
At the moment I favour 3. but thoughts and advice welcome.
tertius said:
also the driving position is proving problematic. For road driving the driving position is absolutely spot on, but on the track, esp. with a helmet, I'm finding it a bit cramped.
A GT3 or 993 RS bucket seat would help as they're loads lower (and lighter) than the standard 993 armchairs.
Maybe only replacing 1 would help reas seat acces as either of these don't have the tilt facility.
Edited by sleep envy on Friday 15th September 00:46
All track cars tend to be expensive to maintain. You'll spend nearly as much on a shed as on your 993 plus theres extra insurance/road tax/trailers etc
Keep the 993 and modify it. You can ditch the sunroof and have a new roof skin put on. Saves 30kg apparently.
If the track thing really bites you'll modify the car so much your wife won't want to go near it for road journeys and she'll make you buy another car.
Keep the 993 and modify it. You can ditch the sunroof and have a new roof skin put on. Saves 30kg apparently.
If the track thing really bites you'll modify the car so much your wife won't want to go near it for road journeys and she'll make you buy another car.
sleep envy said:
tertius said:
also the driving position is proving problematic. For road driving the driving position is absolutely spot on, but on the track, esp. with a helmet, I'm finding it a bit cramped.
A GT3 or 993 RS bucket seat would help as they're loads lower (and lighter) than the standard 993 armchairs.
Maybe only replacing 1 would help reas seat acces as either of these don't have the tilt facility.
Edited by sleep envy on Friday 15th September 00:46
This is probably the ideal first step, as it would be fairly easy to reverse, though they aren't exactly cheap are they?
tertius said:
sleep envy said:
tertius said:
also the driving position is proving problematic. For road driving the driving position is absolutely spot on, but on the track, esp. with a helmet, I'm finding it a bit cramped.
A GT3 or 993 RS bucket seat would help as they're loads lower (and lighter) than the standard 993 armchairs.
Maybe only replacing 1 would help reas seat acces as either of these don't have the tilt facility.
Edited by sleep envy on Friday 15th September 00:46
This is probably the ideal first step, as it would be fairly easy to reverse, though they aren't exactly cheap are they?
Dunno but if you want bring your skid lid with you to Vixpy's so you can try mine out for size before you part with any cash
tony.t said:
All track cars tend to be expensive to maintain. You'll spend nearly as much on a shed as on your 993 plus theres extra insurance/road tax/trailers etc
Keep the 993 and modify it. You can ditch the sunroof and have a new roof skin put on. Saves 30kg apparently.
If the track thing really bites you'll modify the car so much your wife won't want to go near it for road journeys and she'll make you buy another car.
Keep the 993 and modify it. You can ditch the sunroof and have a new roof skin put on. Saves 30kg apparently.
If the track thing really bites you'll modify the car so much your wife won't want to go near it for road journeys and she'll make you buy another car.
I'd want it to be road legal - I did some numbers and estimated I could build the thing (though not including insurance/tax/etc) for approx 7K.
I was considering removing the sunroof, but it seemed a bit extreme - esp. as its on the options sticker - you can just imagine the discussion at sale time ...
We do have another car already, its starting to get a bit out of hand really.
tertius said:
I'd want it to be road legal - I did some numbers and estimated I could build the thing (though not including insurance/tax/etc) for approx 7K.
I was considering removing the sunroof, but it seemed a bit extreme - esp. as its on the options sticker - you can just imagine the discussion at sale time ...
We do have another car already, its starting to get a bit out of hand really.
If you're going to sell it anytime soon conversion is probably money down the drain.
I built ( am still building) a track car out of my 964C2 and £7k will build a nice comprimise, using say PSS9s, lighter seats new pads and tyres but if you're more serious it's possibly not enough. However you can spread the cost over a few years uprating stuff as you need to.
If you're serious about doing track work, and unless your 993 is an RS, I would recommend trading in the 993 for a GT3.
Anything you spend on making the 993 more trackworthy will be money down the drain. The 993 in non-RS form is fundamentally too heavy, underpowered, and the chassis/suspension is too soft for track work. As you are finding the car already too small, you will be fighting an uphill battle and will wish you had gone for a GT3 if you pursue the expensive upgrade path of a regular 993. As there is a strong market for nice unmolested 993s (certainly stronger than modded 993s), take advantage of this and put the funds towards a fundamentally superior track car.
I sold my previous 993 for my GT3 for the same reasons and have not regretted a day of it.
Anything you spend on making the 993 more trackworthy will be money down the drain. The 993 in non-RS form is fundamentally too heavy, underpowered, and the chassis/suspension is too soft for track work. As you are finding the car already too small, you will be fighting an uphill battle and will wish you had gone for a GT3 if you pursue the expensive upgrade path of a regular 993. As there is a strong market for nice unmolested 993s (certainly stronger than modded 993s), take advantage of this and put the funds towards a fundamentally superior track car.
I sold my previous 993 for my GT3 for the same reasons and have not regretted a day of it.
Hey theres some very good ideas on this forum im impressed...
They have said it all the 993 unless a RS is not really up for much as a fast road.track car....get the GT3 and off you go best of both worlds straight out of the wrapper..
Drive a GT3 and see ahat you make of it as its miles different to a 993..
Just get it inspected as a used 1 will of had some stick...not that they cant take abit of that just depends how its been looked after.
The 993 is a little cramped at the best of times but its a sports car not a mini van...so try sitting in a 996 GT3 with a crash helmet on and see the difference...(that ought to raise a few eyebrows...and probably make you look a tit but better at a dealer than when youve parted with the money.)
Thats my 2 pence worth.
They have said it all the 993 unless a RS is not really up for much as a fast road.track car....get the GT3 and off you go best of both worlds straight out of the wrapper..
Drive a GT3 and see ahat you make of it as its miles different to a 993..
Just get it inspected as a used 1 will of had some stick...not that they cant take abit of that just depends how its been looked after.
The 993 is a little cramped at the best of times but its a sports car not a mini van...so try sitting in a 996 GT3 with a crash helmet on and see the difference...(that ought to raise a few eyebrows...and probably make you look a tit but better at a dealer than when youve parted with the money.)
Thats my 2 pence worth.
GT3 if you can afford it.
We have a dedicated track 993, KW suspension, buckets, roll cage etc. Its a fun car but I wouldnt do it again. It came to us cheap so it was a no brainer at the time but in the end a track prepped 968 is just as quick, and on some less hp biased circuits it is quicker.
If you want a good track car for peanuts you could do a lot worse than a 968. If you get a good one it wont cost as much as a 993 or GT3 to run.
We have a dedicated track 993, KW suspension, buckets, roll cage etc. Its a fun car but I wouldnt do it again. It came to us cheap so it was a no brainer at the time but in the end a track prepped 968 is just as quick, and on some less hp biased circuits it is quicker.
If you want a good track car for peanuts you could do a lot worse than a 968. If you get a good one it wont cost as much as a 993 or GT3 to run.
No point recommending a GT3 - part of his dilemma is that he didn't want the stress of 'stacking' his 993. A GT3 will compound that stress.
The problem I see with trackday cars etc is that people can easily become a bit irrational about what is just a hobby. At the end of the day, noone is racing for money - heck, no one is actually racing at all! Yet, people start thinking about removing the sunroof, brake, suspension and engine mods, etc etc. In reality, the tangible benefits of most of these 'improvements' aren't even realisable by the average trackday enthusiast! (I wholeheartedly include me in that category, by the way!)
Though it is a lure that is difficult to resist, I would spend as little as possible on what I call 'bragging rights' mods, and use the money on enhancing the experience - trips to Spa, the 'ring etc etc.
In a nutsell, don't shell ou cash for another car - enjoy the 993 as a really versatile car that can happily take the family for a day out and also happily do track days.
..or spend a wad on a GT3!!
The problem I see with trackday cars etc is that people can easily become a bit irrational about what is just a hobby. At the end of the day, noone is racing for money - heck, no one is actually racing at all! Yet, people start thinking about removing the sunroof, brake, suspension and engine mods, etc etc. In reality, the tangible benefits of most of these 'improvements' aren't even realisable by the average trackday enthusiast! (I wholeheartedly include me in that category, by the way!)
Though it is a lure that is difficult to resist, I would spend as little as possible on what I call 'bragging rights' mods, and use the money on enhancing the experience - trips to Spa, the 'ring etc etc.
In a nutsell, don't shell ou cash for another car - enjoy the 993 as a really versatile car that can happily take the family for a day out and also happily do track days.
..or spend a wad on a GT3!!
3 is the only real option
Or look into hiring. We recently brought a 944 turbo for the track for under 4k Thats pretty cheap and its a good car (I used to own it a few years ago) but add in the costs of running replacing and repairing bits plus insurance etc and some of the track hire options begin to make sens, particualy if you do it on an annual basis.
I say this as I spent £500 in insurace, £1,000 on service plus sorting out a few bits, £500 on seats etc and then a clent stuffed it in a wall on a track day whch will cost 500-£1,000 if we choose to repair.
Thats takes us to almost the same money I was quoted for 6 days hire - makes you think
Or look into hiring. We recently brought a 944 turbo for the track for under 4k Thats pretty cheap and its a good car (I used to own it a few years ago) but add in the costs of running replacing and repairing bits plus insurance etc and some of the track hire options begin to make sens, particualy if you do it on an annual basis.
I say this as I spent £500 in insurace, £1,000 on service plus sorting out a few bits, £500 on seats etc and then a clent stuffed it in a wall on a track day whch will cost 500-£1,000 if we choose to repair.
Thats takes us to almost the same money I was quoted for 6 days hire - makes you think
Agree with above that we are not racing on track days and don't stand to win any prizes, if that is your intention, there are cheaper ways into motorsport than Porsches anyhow.
I did the 968CS thing as a track car as i was too precious about the new 996 I had,,,a great car and loved the handling, but for me it wasn't a 911 and that is what I wanted to drive/learn on track.
I would hang on to your 993, as and when components wear out such as suspension, upgrade with bilstein/kw for example. If you do find a set of Rs or gt3 recaro buckets, you may pay quite a bit for them secondhand, this outlay is easily recovered through the classifieds if you sell. Or just buy a single race seat and bolt it in for trackdays, it takes 15mins or so.
GT3 is a decent car, especially the engine, but you may need to upgrade other components to improve it's handling/braking ability.....none of which is a cheap option from where you are currently.
I did the 968CS thing as a track car as i was too precious about the new 996 I had,,,a great car and loved the handling, but for me it wasn't a 911 and that is what I wanted to drive/learn on track.
I would hang on to your 993, as and when components wear out such as suspension, upgrade with bilstein/kw for example. If you do find a set of Rs or gt3 recaro buckets, you may pay quite a bit for them secondhand, this outlay is easily recovered through the classifieds if you sell. Or just buy a single race seat and bolt it in for trackdays, it takes 15mins or so.
GT3 is a decent car, especially the engine, but you may need to upgrade other components to improve it's handling/braking ability.....none of which is a cheap option from where you are currently.
Why not invest in yourself? A couple of days with one-on-one driving tuition on track or at Bruntingthorpe with Don Palmer, Bernard Aubrey, etc, will make you a far quicker, more confident driver than a set of KWs or a big brake conversion. As John has already said, unless you can make use of the extra performance advantage given by the uprated parts, all you've effectively done is chuck some cash down the drain. IMHO.
A classioc example, being DeR's post: a capable driver in a slightly older car is potentially far quicker than an 'average' driver in a Manthey'd GT3
A classioc example, being DeR's post: a capable driver in a slightly older car is potentially far quicker than an 'average' driver in a Manthey'd GT3
I too had spend a little on my 993 as I spend more and more time on track and less on road over the yrs. GT3 had entred my mine a while ago but I've decided that the 993 as current form is plenty powerful enough for "hobby" trackdays. I'm not racing or timing on a track, just enjoying the fine handling of the car, so a few seconds here and there really dosen't matter much, hence no power mods on my 993, just suspension. Just as CS suggested, I've been replacing the worn out standard parts with uprated/RS parts along the way. Now I've come to a point where I too have to decided whether to spend more money keeping the car as it gets older or to get a new car.
If the engine needs a top end rebuid then a 9M head is really what I want but then it amounts to half the value of the car itself! All the up grades and maintainance cost become a larger proportion of the value of the car as it gets older, and I don't see the value of a standard C2 actually increases in the near future.
I am considering an 993 RS, because the value is significantly higher, and increasing, so money spent maintaining it remains a smaller proportion to the value of the car. Financially atleast, seems a better bet.
I'm no great driver so I'm not gonna be pushing it 110% on track to gain the last few seconds on the Ring. Gently pushing nearer to the limit is plenty enjoyable enough for me so risk of a major prang is minimal. Even if the worse come to the worse, money spent fixing it should atleast be far less than the value of the car.
I just don't beleive in spending that much extra on mods that, as John said, won't make so much difference for most hobby trackers to notice. I feel the most enjoyable part of track days is that you can gently increase the speed untill you're near the limit of the car without overstepping it. Unlike racing where you have to go as near to 100% right from the start and every seconds/ounce count.
Sorry for the long post, just my view.
If the engine needs a top end rebuid then a 9M head is really what I want but then it amounts to half the value of the car itself! All the up grades and maintainance cost become a larger proportion of the value of the car as it gets older, and I don't see the value of a standard C2 actually increases in the near future.
I am considering an 993 RS, because the value is significantly higher, and increasing, so money spent maintaining it remains a smaller proportion to the value of the car. Financially atleast, seems a better bet.
I'm no great driver so I'm not gonna be pushing it 110% on track to gain the last few seconds on the Ring. Gently pushing nearer to the limit is plenty enjoyable enough for me so risk of a major prang is minimal. Even if the worse come to the worse, money spent fixing it should atleast be far less than the value of the car.
I just don't beleive in spending that much extra on mods that, as John said, won't make so much difference for most hobby trackers to notice. I feel the most enjoyable part of track days is that you can gently increase the speed untill you're near the limit of the car without overstepping it. Unlike racing where you have to go as near to 100% right from the start and every seconds/ounce count.
Sorry for the long post, just my view.
My view is you buy a 993 RS or a GT3 and never mind worrying about stacking it. You only live once.
I cannot see the point spending thousands on modding a standard 964/993 (a couple of grand tops is OK) because you simply DO NOT get your money back at resale. If you invest the money you spend modding a standard 964/993 you aren't far off a 964 RS or 993 RS or GT3. Well, OK, there will be a few grand extra to find, but this is offset by the lack of depreciation of these cars compared to the money down the pan moding a "normal" Porsche.
Plus I like the "romance" and pride of owning a real RS. I would feel the same owning a GT3 too. You can't put a value on that.
I await the flames from people who have modded their 964/993.
I cannot see the point spending thousands on modding a standard 964/993 (a couple of grand tops is OK) because you simply DO NOT get your money back at resale. If you invest the money you spend modding a standard 964/993 you aren't far off a 964 RS or 993 RS or GT3. Well, OK, there will be a few grand extra to find, but this is offset by the lack of depreciation of these cars compared to the money down the pan moding a "normal" Porsche.
Plus I like the "romance" and pride of owning a real RS. I would feel the same owning a GT3 too. You can't put a value on that.
I await the flames from people who have modded their 964/993.
Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff