Dangerous Driving NIP. Please help!
Discussion
OK here's the story so far. My boss rang me today to say that they have received a NIP relating to my company car. They have filled it in with my details, so I can expect to receive my own copy soon. I was driving the car at the time and place of the alleged offence but I don't yet know what the nature of the alleged offence is yet. All I know is that:
"consideration is being given to take proceeding against you for ...... dangerous driving/ careless or inconsiderate driving".
This has got me really worried because if I lose my licence I will certainly lose my job (I currently have 3 points on my licence). Also the 'dangerous driving' bit has me scared because I understand that is a very serious offence.
After I have received the NIP, what is likely to be the procedure? I'm guessing that it will involve a court appearance. Should I be seeking legal advice? What are the likely penalties?
Any information is really appreciated as this is getting me really stessed
"consideration is being given to take proceeding against you for ...... dangerous driving/ careless or inconsiderate driving".
This has got me really worried because if I lose my licence I will certainly lose my job (I currently have 3 points on my licence). Also the 'dangerous driving' bit has me scared because I understand that is a very serious offence.
After I have received the NIP, what is likely to be the procedure? I'm guessing that it will involve a court appearance. Should I be seeking legal advice? What are the likely penalties?
Any information is really appreciated as this is getting me really stessed
Without a collision then it looks as if somebody has made a complaint of bad driving against the driver of motor car ABC 124 (if they and any witnesses have recorded the correct number plate) and owned by your company.
Following receipt the form from you company you may well be getting similar and once identified as driver then because of the offence alleged you may well have a visit from Plod who should outline any allegation and get your version of events. At this interview stage you may wish to be represented.
File will then be submitted to CPS who will decide if it goes further.
One against one doesn't generally succeed.
Now cast your mind back to any incident that could have attracted a complaint.
dvd
Following receipt the form from you company you may well be getting similar and once identified as driver then because of the offence alleged you may well have a visit from Plod who should outline any allegation and get your version of events. At this interview stage you may wish to be represented.
File will then be submitted to CPS who will decide if it goes further.
One against one doesn't generally succeed.
Now cast your mind back to any incident that could have attracted a complaint.
dvd
Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Wednesday 27th September 20:20
It's not unlikely someone has reported you for "overtaking" or "cutting them up" when you may well have been driving perfectly well. As many people seem to get offended by seemingly legal & safe manouveres.
Is there anything you may have done recently that might have encouraged such a reaction? perhaps you can think back, followed any bland colour Volvo/BMW/Big Saloons a bit too close for comfort? agressive undertaking on the motoway? overtaking a bit iffily? that type of thing? you may well have encountered an unmarked plodder recently!!! Unmarked plod may not necessarily stop you on the spot, nor will they react like your average motorist with gesticualtion & brake testing.
Bear in mind there has to a witness as well as the reportee, unless it was plod who saw the incident, bear in mind unmarked trafpol have video recording facilities front & rear facing.
You can ask for any evidence once your summons has been issued (if it will be) & then you can make your mind up.
Is there anything you may have done recently that might have encouraged such a reaction? perhaps you can think back, followed any bland colour Volvo/BMW/Big Saloons a bit too close for comfort? agressive undertaking on the motoway? overtaking a bit iffily? that type of thing? you may well have encountered an unmarked plodder recently!!! Unmarked plod may not necessarily stop you on the spot, nor will they react like your average motorist with gesticualtion & brake testing.
Bear in mind there has to a witness as well as the reportee, unless it was plod who saw the incident, bear in mind unmarked trafpol have video recording facilities front & rear facing.
You can ask for any evidence once your summons has been issued (if it will be) & then you can make your mind up.
Thanks very much for the replies.
I think that the suggestion that somebody has made a complaint about me is the most likely scenario. I have a fair idea about why that complaint was made, but until I know what the allegations are I'm unwilling to specualate about it on here. (I don't think that it was made by the police). However, I know that I can provide a satisfactory version of events to the police if questioned.
If I'm right about what triggered the complaint then it's very likely that there is more than one witness. Is this likley to count against me when they are deciding whether to prosecute and if they do prosecute will it hurt my chances of being cleared of the charges?
I think that the suggestion that somebody has made a complaint about me is the most likely scenario. I have a fair idea about why that complaint was made, but until I know what the allegations are I'm unwilling to specualate about it on here. (I don't think that it was made by the police). However, I know that I can provide a satisfactory version of events to the police if questioned.
If I'm right about what triggered the complaint then it's very likely that there is more than one witness. Is this likley to count against me when they are deciding whether to prosecute and if they do prosecute will it hurt my chances of being cleared of the charges?
If and when the plod come to see you DO NOT SAY ANYTHING that may harm your defence. Remember it is up to them to prove a case against you. You do not have to explain yourself to the police.
You have said there may be more than 1 witnesses. Could these 2 or more witnesses come into contact with each other. If not there may only be one witness against you therefore it cannot be proven.
Remember no matter what they alledge remember you do not have to say anthing. Give names and details of yourself if requested. Not doing so would be seen by a magistrate as an admission of guilt.
Not knowing about your personal curcumstances, if gaining points or losing your licence would affect your life and cause exceptional hardship to yourself, wife/girlfriend, kids ect. a magistrate could give a hefty fine. Allow your points level to exceed 12 but still allow you to retain your full driving licence or a variety of other options on that line.
Dangerous driving is a serious offence, however they have to prove that charge against you.
A damage control technique could be to accept a fixed penalty to a lesser charge. This may be the cheapest road for you. You would not lose your licence, Job, car ect. Its only £60 plus insurance premiums increase.
Remember article 7 of the european law. You do not have to say anthing that may incriminate yourself. So if they do come. Play the cards close to your chest. They will try to sharp talk you into admitting the offence which would be used against you in court and you would have two independent witnesses (the officers) to say you admitted guilt.
I hope this works out for you. Dont do what i did and get done for something that you could easily get away with.
You have said there may be more than 1 witnesses. Could these 2 or more witnesses come into contact with each other. If not there may only be one witness against you therefore it cannot be proven.
Remember no matter what they alledge remember you do not have to say anthing. Give names and details of yourself if requested. Not doing so would be seen by a magistrate as an admission of guilt.
Not knowing about your personal curcumstances, if gaining points or losing your licence would affect your life and cause exceptional hardship to yourself, wife/girlfriend, kids ect. a magistrate could give a hefty fine. Allow your points level to exceed 12 but still allow you to retain your full driving licence or a variety of other options on that line.
Dangerous driving is a serious offence, however they have to prove that charge against you.
A damage control technique could be to accept a fixed penalty to a lesser charge. This may be the cheapest road for you. You would not lose your licence, Job, car ect. Its only £60 plus insurance premiums increase.
Remember article 7 of the european law. You do not have to say anthing that may incriminate yourself. So if they do come. Play the cards close to your chest. They will try to sharp talk you into admitting the offence which would be used against you in court and you would have two independent witnesses (the officers) to say you admitted guilt.
I hope this works out for you. Dont do what i did and get done for something that you could easily get away with.
It is quite normal for a NIP to have both dangerous driving & careless driving as alternatives on it. I wouldn't take that as indicative that it is dangerous driving that is being considered. dangerous driving is hard to prove & if it were danegrous they were thinking about I'm confident you'd be very aware of the incident they were talking about & if it potentially amounted to dangerous.
As stated, I can't be sure until the allegations are presented to me, but it seems very likely that there is more than one witness and that they will have been in contact with each other.
Thanks for the replies. Although I'm still apprehensive, the info given has helped and at least I have a better idea now of what is likely to happen.
Thanks for the replies. Although I'm still apprehensive, the info given has helped and at least I have a better idea now of what is likely to happen.
Monumental said:
As stated, I can't be sure until the allegations are presented to me, but it seems very likely that there is more than one witness and that they will have been in contact with each other.
Thanks for the replies. Although I'm still apprehensive, the info given has helped and at least I have a better idea now of what is likely to happen.
Thanks for the replies. Although I'm still apprehensive, the info given has helped and at least I have a better idea now of what is likely to happen.
Go see a solicitor now. Say nothing to the police if questioned. It's your right and they will not be offended. In fact the first thing they will tell you is you don't have to answer any questions.
Unless they 172 you then you must tell them who the driver was but thats all.
Get your solicitor to establish the evidence against you. Disclosure permits this and you have a basic right to know who the witnesses are and what they will be giving evidence about. This is in order that you can prepare a defence or plead guilty.
Remember the crown will charge you with the most serious offence because they can ruduce the charge but not increase.
If you have done something wrong you could enter a plea of guilty to a reduced charge and take a fine and points as opposed to getiing a ban. They do this all the time.
Gently Bentley said:
Go see a solicitor now. Say nothing to the police if questioned. It's your right and they will not be offended. In fact the first thing they will tell you is you don't have to answer any questions.
Unless they 172 you then you must tell them who the driver was but thats all.
Get your solicitor to establish the evidence against you. Disclosure permits this and you have a basic right to know who the witnesses are and what they will be giving evidence about. This is in order that you can prepare a defence or plead guilty.
Remember the crown will charge you with the most serious offence because they can ruduce the charge but not increase.
If you have done something wrong you could enter a plea of guilty to a reduced charge and take a fine and points as opposed to getiing a ban. They do this all the time.
Is this still appropriate if I believe that I have not done anything wrong and can explain this to the police?
Excuse my ingorance, but roughly how much is a solicitor likely to charge for the services suggested?
Everyone has their own opinion so heres mine (bearing in mind I have sent out a few NIPS over the years)
First thing is I thought it odd that is said dangerous and careless as they are two different offences - Are you 100% sure it said both ? - Just odd, not that it changes anything, I normally advise my officers to only select the higher of the more appropriate offences. Maybe their were two offences during the "interaction" you had at two locations ? - Only you know that.
You will not be offerred a fixed penalty as they can only be done at the time (Speed cameras are slightly different and in law thay are actually conditional offers - Not the same) and also dangerous is not (I am 99% sure) included as a FPT'able offence - There are only so many that are.
As for the advice to "say nothing" let them prove it, then there is a danger there - Your choice.
"If you fail to mention something when questioned then it may harm your defence if you later raise it at court" - That's intentionally not word perfect but a summary of the caution but there is an important meaning behind it.
If I were presented with a file for my advice for CPS where one party makes a complaint and the other says nothing then there is only one way really to go and that is to court ? - What else could I do, I am not the person to say MR 1 is lying/mistaken - That would be for a court to decide.
However, if I have two versions of the same event, then I MIGHT be in a position to say, "No independant evidence to support either version of events - NFA"
As I said, your choice.
I would however take professional advice but just bear in mind they get paid more if they represent you in court. (cynic)
I wouldn't panic too much, sending out NIPS's is just a legal formality the officer has to do, it is also the most efficient way to get your name and address back into their tray so they can progress their paperwork and clear another piece of it.
I would get some basic advice about penalties etc, then find out when officer is on duty next (NIP normally has a reference number that contains their shoulder number) go to their station when the come on duty and present your version of events in a honest manner, I also felt that worked best.
But I know other people will have their opinions about saying that Human rights prevent you from talking or say it was you friend who has left the country or whatever but my honest experience of that is most of it doesnt work and you will just make the officer believe more of what Mr 1 said - Good chance the magistrates will also !
Good luck and don't loose sleep, just don't stick your head in the sand either !
First thing is I thought it odd that is said dangerous and careless as they are two different offences - Are you 100% sure it said both ? - Just odd, not that it changes anything, I normally advise my officers to only select the higher of the more appropriate offences. Maybe their were two offences during the "interaction" you had at two locations ? - Only you know that.
You will not be offerred a fixed penalty as they can only be done at the time (Speed cameras are slightly different and in law thay are actually conditional offers - Not the same) and also dangerous is not (I am 99% sure) included as a FPT'able offence - There are only so many that are.
As for the advice to "say nothing" let them prove it, then there is a danger there - Your choice.
"If you fail to mention something when questioned then it may harm your defence if you later raise it at court" - That's intentionally not word perfect but a summary of the caution but there is an important meaning behind it.
If I were presented with a file for my advice for CPS where one party makes a complaint and the other says nothing then there is only one way really to go and that is to court ? - What else could I do, I am not the person to say MR 1 is lying/mistaken - That would be for a court to decide.
However, if I have two versions of the same event, then I MIGHT be in a position to say, "No independant evidence to support either version of events - NFA"
As I said, your choice.
I would however take professional advice but just bear in mind they get paid more if they represent you in court. (cynic)
I wouldn't panic too much, sending out NIPS's is just a legal formality the officer has to do, it is also the most efficient way to get your name and address back into their tray so they can progress their paperwork and clear another piece of it.
I would get some basic advice about penalties etc, then find out when officer is on duty next (NIP normally has a reference number that contains their shoulder number) go to their station when the come on duty and present your version of events in a honest manner, I also felt that worked best.
But I know other people will have their opinions about saying that Human rights prevent you from talking or say it was you friend who has left the country or whatever but my honest experience of that is most of it doesnt work and you will just make the officer believe more of what Mr 1 said - Good chance the magistrates will also !
Good luck and don't loose sleep, just don't stick your head in the sand either !
Monumental said:
Gently Bentley said:
Go see a solicitor now. Say nothing to the police if questioned. It's your right and they will not be offended. In fact the first thing they will tell you is you don't have to answer any questions.
Unless they 172 you then you must tell them who the driver was but thats all.
Get your solicitor to establish the evidence against you. Disclosure permits this and you have a basic right to know who the witnesses are and what they will be giving evidence about. This is in order that you can prepare a defence or plead guilty.
Remember the crown will charge you with the most serious offence because they can ruduce the charge but not increase.
If you have done something wrong you could enter a plea of guilty to a reduced charge and take a fine and points as opposed to getiing a ban. They do this all the time.
Is this still appropriate if I believe that I have not done anything wrong and can explain this to the police?
Excuse my ingorance, but roughly how much is a solicitor likely to charge for the services suggested?
Your company may assist depending on what type of union you are with but most solicitors provide the first consultation free of charge. You should find out who specialises in road traffic law. Get a recommendation from a friend or a cop you trust, they know who the good solicitors are. If you have done nothing wrong and have been sent an NIP leave it to the solicitor. They are the ones who know about the system and beleive it or not are not out just to make money. You might also qualify for legal aid depending on what you earn. I'm not a solicitor by the way.
Monumental said:
Gently Bentley said:
Go see a solicitor now. Say nothing to the police if questioned. It's your right and they will not be offended. In fact the first thing they will tell you is you don't have to answer any questions.
Unless they 172 you then you must tell them who the driver was but thats all.
Get your solicitor to establish the evidence against you. Disclosure permits this and you have a basic right to know who the witnesses are and what they will be giving evidence about. This is in order that you can prepare a defence or plead guilty.
Remember the crown will charge you with the most serious offence because they can ruduce the charge but not increase.
If you have done something wrong you could enter a plea of guilty to a reduced charge and take a fine and points as opposed to getiing a ban. They do this all the time.
Is this still appropriate if I believe that I have not done anything wrong and can explain this to the police?
Excuse my ingorance, but roughly how much is a solicitor likely to charge for the services suggested?
That's the danger you risk in just saying nothing. If they have evidence, question you about it, you say nothing & the evidence they have is sufficient to charge you, what do you think is going to happen ?
For the caution think of "You do not have to say anything, but it may harm your defence if you fail to mention when questioned, something that you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence."
3 basic parts
1) You don't have to say anything.
2) If they ask you questions & you don't give an account in relation to those questions, but then later in court do provide an account, the court can draw an adverse inference from that where it sees fit.
3) Anything you do say can be used in evidence.
As to disclosure before interview. They do not have to disclose prima facie evidence that can be witheld, to for instance, expose untruths, irregularities or inconsistencies in your account during interview.
As others have said, consider carefully & think about legal advice.
Edited by vonhosen on Wednesday 27th September 22:46
justin1230smith said:
You will not be offerred a fixed penalty as they can only be done at the time (Speed cameras are slightly different and in law thay are actually conditional offers - Not the same) and also dangerous is not (I am 99% sure) included as a FPT'able offence - There are only so many that are.
It's not a FPN offence.
vonhosen said:
Monumental said:
Gently Bentley said:
Go see a solicitor now. Say nothing to the police if questioned. It's your right and they will not be offended. In fact the first thing they will tell you is you don't have to answer any questions.
Unless they 172 you then you must tell them who the driver was but thats all.
Get your solicitor to establish the evidence against you. Disclosure permits this and you have a basic right to know who the witnesses are and what they will be giving evidence about. This is in order that you can prepare a defence or plead guilty.
Remember the crown will charge you with the most serious offence because they can ruduce the charge but not increase.
If you have done something wrong you could enter a plea of guilty to a reduced charge and take a fine and points as opposed to getiing a ban. They do this all the time.
Is this still appropriate if I believe that I have not done anything wrong and can explain this to the police?
Excuse my ingorance, but roughly how much is a solicitor likely to charge for the services suggested?
That's the danger you risk in just saying nothing. If they have evidence, question you about it, you say nothing & the evidence they have is sufficient to charge you, what do you think is going to happen ?
The caution is "You do not have to say anything, but it may harm your defence if you fail to mention when questioned, something that you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be give in evidence."
3 basic parts
1) You don't have to say anything.
2) If they ask you questions & you don't give an account in relation to those questions, but then later in court do provide an account, the court can draw an adverse inference from that where it sees fit.
3) Anything you do say can be used in evidence.
As to disclosure before interview. They do not have to disclose prima facie evidence that can be witheld, to for instance, expose untruths, irregularities or inconsistencies in your account during interview.
I was thinking Scotland where point 2 does not apply. So i'm sitting this out. Still see a solicitor though. DON'T WORRY.
This is all very useful stuff, much appreciated!
Yes, it said dangerous/ careless or inconsiderate driving. It's a generic form with a list of traffic offences and the others were crossed out. I'm pretty sure there is only one alleged offence, it's worrying not knowing if it's 'dangerous' or 'inconsiderate' which I guess is a much less serious charge.
justin1230smith said:
First thing is I thought it odd that is said dangerous and careless as they are two different offences - Are you 100% sure it said both ? - Just odd, not that it changes anything, I normally advise my officers to only select the higher of the more appropriate offences. Maybe their were two offences during the "interaction" you had at two locations ? - Only you know that.
Yes, it said dangerous/ careless or inconsiderate driving. It's a generic form with a list of traffic offences and the others were crossed out. I'm pretty sure there is only one alleged offence, it's worrying not knowing if it's 'dangerous' or 'inconsiderate' which I guess is a much less serious charge.
Edited by Monumental on Wednesday 27th September 23:04
Hi Monumental - I know how you feel, as I had this very situation about 9 years ago. In the end, I exercised my right to a jury trial because the CPS persisted with the Dangerous driving charge (Dangerous is a summary offence and can be dealt with in either magistrates or crown courts - you can opt for Crown court and jury or the magistrates might opt for you if they think it's too serious a case to try themselves).
There were 2 witnesses originally, including the police officer which had pulled me over for speeding (67mph in a 60mph). My solicitor said that there was only one that was troublesome to us re the dangerous charge...a member of the IAM, and the worst sort of self righteous twit he was too. He pulled over and stopped behind the policeman after I'd gone and then started making allegations of dangerous overtaking by a TVR to the police officer. The police officer then put 2+2 together, and made 10.
My barrister applied to the judge to cross examine him before the jury was called in...which was duly granted. My barrister then proceeded to destroy him completely. Dangerous individual that....he was so keen to see a TVR driver banged up that he actually accused me of making a dangerous overtaking manoever ... and the CPS went for it on the basis that there aren't many TVRs on the roads so it must have been mine! Simple questions about the colour and whether the roof was up or down meant the judge dismissed him in a pleasingly dissapproving and accusatory manner about checking your facts before making accusations. This lead me to the scarey conclusion that the CPS hadn't bothered to talk to the guy before they went to court - if they had, they would have discovered that he had seen a dark purple TVR over taking him rather than the bright blue metallic one that I was driving.
Legal costs were circa £5000 - I was awarded most of it back. The implications of what could have happened if the guy had stood up and said 'Blue' instead of 'Purple' are too scarey to contemplate.
Good luck with it - my advice is that real judges are proper, legal professionals and in my limited experience are more likely to look at the facts rather than just believe the police etc. If it looks like they are going to try and make it stick in Mags court, opt for a jury trial and fight it.
J.
There were 2 witnesses originally, including the police officer which had pulled me over for speeding (67mph in a 60mph). My solicitor said that there was only one that was troublesome to us re the dangerous charge...a member of the IAM, and the worst sort of self righteous twit he was too. He pulled over and stopped behind the policeman after I'd gone and then started making allegations of dangerous overtaking by a TVR to the police officer. The police officer then put 2+2 together, and made 10.
My barrister applied to the judge to cross examine him before the jury was called in...which was duly granted. My barrister then proceeded to destroy him completely. Dangerous individual that....he was so keen to see a TVR driver banged up that he actually accused me of making a dangerous overtaking manoever ... and the CPS went for it on the basis that there aren't many TVRs on the roads so it must have been mine! Simple questions about the colour and whether the roof was up or down meant the judge dismissed him in a pleasingly dissapproving and accusatory manner about checking your facts before making accusations. This lead me to the scarey conclusion that the CPS hadn't bothered to talk to the guy before they went to court - if they had, they would have discovered that he had seen a dark purple TVR over taking him rather than the bright blue metallic one that I was driving.
Legal costs were circa £5000 - I was awarded most of it back. The implications of what could have happened if the guy had stood up and said 'Blue' instead of 'Purple' are too scarey to contemplate.
Good luck with it - my advice is that real judges are proper, legal professionals and in my limited experience are more likely to look at the facts rather than just believe the police etc. If it looks like they are going to try and make it stick in Mags court, opt for a jury trial and fight it.
J.
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