Fact: Your boxster is better than a Ferrari.
Discussion
I know it's controversial, but it's my humble opinion. I bought a Boxster S last May, ran it round Europe, put 9k miles in it and never had a bean go wrong. Walked into a Ferrari showroom over xmas, fell in love with a cancelled order for a 360 Modena F1, traded in my boxster and bought the car. Biggest mistake of my life. The F1 gearbox was frought with problems, causing the car to stall all the time (In some pretty hairy situations, like pulling out into a roundabout off Junction 12 of the M4). Other problems happened like the front suspension collapsed and little niggly things like the cigarette lighter snapped and bits fell off the underside of the dash. It's also really terribly thought about design, which you don't realise until you have one, like the inside door panels are made of aluminium which scratch to bug*ery every time you move your shoes past them. The quality of the leather on the seats is dreadful and started stretching and cracking within a couple of weeks, and as for the ride quality. Eeeeek.
I gave up on the car after 6 weeks. Of that time, 4 weeks of its life were spent in the Ferrari workshop being fixed and refixed (Car brike down 8 times). No they wouldn't take the car back. Yes I did have a legal case to sue them, but it would have taken so long to do it, and the car would have lost so much money in the meantime, it probably wasn't worth doing. Sold it and lost 12k.
Look I know it was an extreme sports car, but you seem to get only a little more for your three times the cost. Top speed is 180 compared to Boxster S's 165, 0-60 is 4.5 compared to 5.6 . It just seems like an incredible amount to pay for crap build quality, poor reliability. Unbearable cabin noise over 4000 revs. half the economy, very poorly designed traction control (not a patch on Porsche's PSM), and IMHO not much better handling. Perhaps I'm a very bad driver, but having driven one, I reckon the Boxster S would go round a corner just as quickly and feel much more certain in doing so.
Sold my Ferrari, and just bought another Boxster S. My opioion is that you guys have already one of the best all-round cars on the road, and I'm happy to be back in your ranks again.
FYI, I got a cancelled order, and was luicky enough to get a car within 10 days. I got a car with the Turbo 2 allows, and It came with Yokohama tyres. I though these cas only shipped with Pirellis or Continentals. Are the Yokohamas a good tyre?
Happy Gassing,
Marcos
I gave up on the car after 6 weeks. Of that time, 4 weeks of its life were spent in the Ferrari workshop being fixed and refixed (Car brike down 8 times). No they wouldn't take the car back. Yes I did have a legal case to sue them, but it would have taken so long to do it, and the car would have lost so much money in the meantime, it probably wasn't worth doing. Sold it and lost 12k.
Look I know it was an extreme sports car, but you seem to get only a little more for your three times the cost. Top speed is 180 compared to Boxster S's 165, 0-60 is 4.5 compared to 5.6 . It just seems like an incredible amount to pay for crap build quality, poor reliability. Unbearable cabin noise over 4000 revs. half the economy, very poorly designed traction control (not a patch on Porsche's PSM), and IMHO not much better handling. Perhaps I'm a very bad driver, but having driven one, I reckon the Boxster S would go round a corner just as quickly and feel much more certain in doing so.
Sold my Ferrari, and just bought another Boxster S. My opioion is that you guys have already one of the best all-round cars on the road, and I'm happy to be back in your ranks again.
FYI, I got a cancelled order, and was luicky enough to get a car within 10 days. I got a car with the Turbo 2 allows, and It came with Yokohama tyres. I though these cas only shipped with Pirellis or Continentals. Are the Yokohamas a good tyre?
Happy Gassing,
Marcos
what you say confirms the impressions that I have göeaned from talks with Ferrrari owners.
Ferrari have a glorious, sexy name and image. However, when I listen to the problems Ferrari owners have (don't ever comment, some get really shirty), I can't help feeling that the actual ownership experience leaves very much to be desired.
Ferrari have a glorious, sexy name and image. However, when I listen to the problems Ferrari owners have (don't ever comment, some get really shirty), I can't help feeling that the actual ownership experience leaves very much to be desired.
Sorry to hear about the hassles you had with the Dancin' Donkey...
Thankyou for confirming my fears about Ferrari ownership.I am very glad they exist but I will NEVER own one,these kind of tales are too prevalent.
having worked for an Italian institution in the past for a few years I have seen their attitude toward business and service which has convinced me a Porsche is all you ever need.
It is ok to compare a Boxster to 360 in terms of bhp/fun per £ but you are going to get the obvious performance differential higher up the rev range,but that is why there is the TT,GT2 & 3 to show maranello how to build a fast car.
Thankyou for confirming my fears about Ferrari ownership.I am very glad they exist but I will NEVER own one,these kind of tales are too prevalent.
having worked for an Italian institution in the past for a few years I have seen their attitude toward business and service which has convinced me a Porsche is all you ever need.
It is ok to compare a Boxster to 360 in terms of bhp/fun per £ but you are going to get the obvious performance differential higher up the rev range,but that is why there is the TT,GT2 & 3 to show maranello how to build a fast car.
Unfortunately, this does happen on occasion. Any car horror story has more horror in it when it relates to a Ferrari.
Many of the problems you had relate to the F1 box, and it's well known to others on this board that I'm no fan of these. Some owners like them though, and are mystified by the slagging they get. I would also agree with you on the poxy aluminium trim which looks cheap and does indeed scuff easily and is difficult to keep clean- I eventually found that Brasso does the trick. The leather is quite thin, but I condition mine every 6 weeks or so and it stays in excellent nick, and smells great too.
I got my Modena having owned the 456 for about a year. Like you I was really disappointed with the drop in quality of the bits (if you look at the comments in my profile you will see they back this up). So much so that I actively considered chopping it for a 550 for the first few months I owned it.
Then I worked out how to drive it. Then I put a Tubi on it to make it sound great, and all was sweetness & light! This is a driving machine, pure & simple. Everything makes sense when you nail it on a favourite piece of road; the recalcitrant manual shift is sweet as a nut when you shift at the redline; the stiff suspension keeps you flat in corners; the downforce kicks in to get you round corners like you wouldn't believe. The quality of the bits is a trade off between comfort and weight saving. The whole machine comes alive in your hands, and driving it hard is one of the most deeply satisfying automotive experiences you can have, IMO. Anyone buying one of the Ferrari V8s to pose in is missing 70% of point. Though I sold the Modena some months ago now I still miss it.
If you want germanic build quality then take a gander at the V12s. So far, my 456 has been an absolute joy to own with fewer niggles (one in fact)than any car I've owned bar my Audis. They're a different driving experience for sure, IMO less focussed than the V8s, but satisfying in different ways.
Many of the problems you had relate to the F1 box, and it's well known to others on this board that I'm no fan of these. Some owners like them though, and are mystified by the slagging they get. I would also agree with you on the poxy aluminium trim which looks cheap and does indeed scuff easily and is difficult to keep clean- I eventually found that Brasso does the trick. The leather is quite thin, but I condition mine every 6 weeks or so and it stays in excellent nick, and smells great too.
I got my Modena having owned the 456 for about a year. Like you I was really disappointed with the drop in quality of the bits (if you look at the comments in my profile you will see they back this up). So much so that I actively considered chopping it for a 550 for the first few months I owned it.
Then I worked out how to drive it. Then I put a Tubi on it to make it sound great, and all was sweetness & light! This is a driving machine, pure & simple. Everything makes sense when you nail it on a favourite piece of road; the recalcitrant manual shift is sweet as a nut when you shift at the redline; the stiff suspension keeps you flat in corners; the downforce kicks in to get you round corners like you wouldn't believe. The quality of the bits is a trade off between comfort and weight saving. The whole machine comes alive in your hands, and driving it hard is one of the most deeply satisfying automotive experiences you can have, IMO. Anyone buying one of the Ferrari V8s to pose in is missing 70% of point. Though I sold the Modena some months ago now I still miss it.
If you want germanic build quality then take a gander at the V12s. So far, my 456 has been an absolute joy to own with fewer niggles (one in fact)than any car I've owned bar my Audis. They're a different driving experience for sure, IMO less focussed than the V8s, but satisfying in different ways.
Mduroe - it's clear that you were unfortunate enough to have a complete LEMON of a Ferrari..... It can happen to anyone who purchases ANY make of car - the difference when you buy a Ferrari is that there is a lot more money involved and because of this the buyer, quite rightly, becomes a LOT less forgiving.
I think some of what you feel is also down to YOU - not just the car - Don't take this the wrong way but you said:
"unbearable cabin noise above 4000rpm"
"ride quality.... eeeek"
"half the economy"
To ME, these comments indicate that you're not a "Ferrari-man" if you know what I mean. This is certainly not a criticism or, in any way a negative remark - it's just that:
a) you got the crappest 360 that Ferrari probably ever built
and b) I think you're not the type of person who "digs" Ferraris anyway.
I've had a lot experience with the 360M (though I must concede that most of it was NOT behind the wheel) - the aluminium sucks - compared to a proper V12 Ferrari, the interior is lame, it sounds RUBBISH, and if you've got an F1 and it's not at 100% then you can have all sorts of problems....
BUT - and this is a big BUT - if you don't get a lemon - then, as an out'n'out driving machie the 360M is awesome - not a supercar like a Diablo/V12 Ferrari but a weapon.... it's a real shame you got a duff one and couldn't find this out.
Manu
I think some of what you feel is also down to YOU - not just the car - Don't take this the wrong way but you said:
"unbearable cabin noise above 4000rpm"
"ride quality.... eeeek"
"half the economy"
To ME, these comments indicate that you're not a "Ferrari-man" if you know what I mean. This is certainly not a criticism or, in any way a negative remark - it's just that:
a) you got the crappest 360 that Ferrari probably ever built
and b) I think you're not the type of person who "digs" Ferraris anyway.
I've had a lot experience with the 360M (though I must concede that most of it was NOT behind the wheel) - the aluminium sucks - compared to a proper V12 Ferrari, the interior is lame, it sounds RUBBISH, and if you've got an F1 and it's not at 100% then you can have all sorts of problems....
BUT - and this is a big BUT - if you don't get a lemon - then, as an out'n'out driving machie the 360M is awesome - not a supercar like a Diablo/V12 Ferrari but a weapon.... it's a real shame you got a duff one and couldn't find this out.
Manu
Hope you're right, Manu, about lemons etc!
I must say, my all too limited exposure to these prancers has been overwhelmingly positive.
Whilst the solidity of 355s and 360s has been the subject of much Tifotic lauding, I was genuinely impressed at a driving day a while back, by stepping out of an (admittedly wonderful) 328, into a 360.
The quality was genuinely mass production standard. I.e. Good!
355s have seemed as good, although I'm sure owners can vouch for differentials but at the end of the day here's the crack as far as I can figure, viz a vis the ownership concept:
£50-£100k on a red blooded supercar?
Which means product of Italy...well it just ISN'T going to have Teutonic core values so perhaps, just don't go there if you're in this league and this bothers you...
A Diablo will be well nigh impossible to run for umpteen good reasons and will bankrupt you.
A Ferrari will have 'characteristics' but these are generally not as stratospheric, cost-wise, to address.
Plus, the ultimate 'caveat emptor' with Ferraris should be that old adage, "you're buying an engine [and what an engine!] with a car thrown in for free."
Ultimately, I'm sure Manu's hit the nail firmly where it counts and Kevin's prognosis delivers a fitting rationale of what the 'essence of Ferrari' is.
For me, a 355 would be about the sound, the sheer experience of 'learning' the legend, the style and practically, the seemingly reasonable reliabilty and service cost reports...
I was watching a Tiff vid, in a 360 on track yesterday; I can only say it stirred my soul.
And many people talk about motoring character and soul quite glibly but for me, just being in the prescence of a Fezza is being in the prescence of genuine, proven greatness.
And for that, I could be hugely tolerant!
I must say, my all too limited exposure to these prancers has been overwhelmingly positive.
Whilst the solidity of 355s and 360s has been the subject of much Tifotic lauding, I was genuinely impressed at a driving day a while back, by stepping out of an (admittedly wonderful) 328, into a 360.
The quality was genuinely mass production standard. I.e. Good!
355s have seemed as good, although I'm sure owners can vouch for differentials but at the end of the day here's the crack as far as I can figure, viz a vis the ownership concept:
£50-£100k on a red blooded supercar?
Which means product of Italy...well it just ISN'T going to have Teutonic core values so perhaps, just don't go there if you're in this league and this bothers you...
A Diablo will be well nigh impossible to run for umpteen good reasons and will bankrupt you.
A Ferrari will have 'characteristics' but these are generally not as stratospheric, cost-wise, to address.
Plus, the ultimate 'caveat emptor' with Ferraris should be that old adage, "you're buying an engine [and what an engine!] with a car thrown in for free."
Ultimately, I'm sure Manu's hit the nail firmly where it counts and Kevin's prognosis delivers a fitting rationale of what the 'essence of Ferrari' is.
For me, a 355 would be about the sound, the sheer experience of 'learning' the legend, the style and practically, the seemingly reasonable reliabilty and service cost reports...
I was watching a Tiff vid, in a 360 on track yesterday; I can only say it stirred my soul.
And many people talk about motoring character and soul quite glibly but for me, just being in the prescence of a Fezza is being in the prescence of genuine, proven greatness.
And for that, I could be hugely tolerant!
I am disappointed that Ferrari did not treat you right, but I'll hazard a guess that they are having many problems with the F1 system...
But yours were not limited to that. It's a shame Ferrari won't always look after their customers properly, but then this is true of so many companies nowadays.
Better is a relative word. I can't agree with you with regards to a Boxster being "better".
The emotions that a Ferrari leads you through are very different to any other car. I had use of a mate's Boxster (not an S unfortunately) and although I do highly recommend them, and know that they are very competent cars, with lovely mid engined handling, they are no Ferrari. The smell of the leather, the sound of the engine, the shape.
You should try a manual, and really drive it hard. There is no way that a Boxster S will keep rank with a 360, if both are driven well. Plus, the 360 sounds crap, so you can be forgiven for not falling in love with it
But, you are right, the Boxster S is a very, very good car, and at the end of the day its horses for courses. For the money, what the Boxster does is pretty unbeatable. It just doesn't stir emotions like one of the Ferrari's do.
As Dom says, its a heart thing, and one day you might walk past one, and think "Damn it, I'll give a manual a try!"
Regards
But yours were not limited to that. It's a shame Ferrari won't always look after their customers properly, but then this is true of so many companies nowadays.
Better is a relative word. I can't agree with you with regards to a Boxster being "better".
The emotions that a Ferrari leads you through are very different to any other car. I had use of a mate's Boxster (not an S unfortunately) and although I do highly recommend them, and know that they are very competent cars, with lovely mid engined handling, they are no Ferrari. The smell of the leather, the sound of the engine, the shape.
You should try a manual, and really drive it hard. There is no way that a Boxster S will keep rank with a 360, if both are driven well. Plus, the 360 sounds crap, so you can be forgiven for not falling in love with it
But, you are right, the Boxster S is a very, very good car, and at the end of the day its horses for courses. For the money, what the Boxster does is pretty unbeatable. It just doesn't stir emotions like one of the Ferrari's do.
As Dom says, its a heart thing, and one day you might walk past one, and think "Damn it, I'll give a manual a try!"
Regards
May be openign a can of worms here BUT...
I also think people make too many excuses for Ferraris. Especially the press. Ihave several articles, which compare Astons or Porshces with Ferraris and they always make excuses. Things like "part of the ferrari appeal is not having 2nd or 4th until the engine is warm" Eh???
"Ergonimically its a mess. But everything has been deliberatly designed this way- if it doesnt add to the raw appeal of driving, its not importnant." etc etc
But if Porsche or Aston or TVR ever put a switch in the wrong place then god help them...
It seems that no journalist wants to admit what they all, secretly know.
I also think people make too many excuses for Ferraris. Especially the press. Ihave several articles, which compare Astons or Porshces with Ferraris and they always make excuses. Things like "part of the ferrari appeal is not having 2nd or 4th until the engine is warm" Eh???
"Ergonimically its a mess. But everything has been deliberatly designed this way- if it doesnt add to the raw appeal of driving, its not importnant." etc etc
But if Porsche or Aston or TVR ever put a switch in the wrong place then god help them...
It seems that no journalist wants to admit what they all, secretly know.
williamp said: May be openign a can of worms here BUT...
I also think people make too many excuses for Ferraris. Especially the press. Ihave several articles, which compare Astons or Porshces with Ferraris and they always make excuses. Things like "part of the ferrari appeal is not having 2nd or 4th until the engine is warm" Eh???
"Ergonimically its a mess. But everything has been deliberatly designed this way- if it doesnt add to the raw appeal of driving, its not importnant." etc etc
But if Porsche or Aston or TVR ever put a switch in the wrong place then god help them...
It seems that no journalist wants to admit what they all, secretly know.
Have you seen the interior of a 993? And anyway who cares what journos think? I hope you buy a car because you try it and it works, not coz someone else thinks they are any good?
williamp said: Things like "part of the ferrari appeal is not having 2nd or 4th until the engine is warm" Eh???
Generally applies to the older (pre 80s) cars. Modern Ferrari gearboxes are fairly hassle free (Except the 360M slushomatic, which is dire-but still better than anybody elses semi-auto)
I would have to concur with the views on ergonomics -although have you been in a TVR ?- and the ongoing presence of Tipo switchgear in the 456 is a disgrace. You pay for unsurpassed handling (except the 360 again), performance, noise and styling. But you are still buying an Italian car. If you are in the market for a family saloon an A4 is better built than almost anything -as with a 911- but will bore you to tears whereas a 156 will need occasional tweaking but will make you smile every time you look at it, start the engine or take it onto the back roads. If you don't get this, stick with Porsches. If you want a bit more excitement in your life give a (manual) Ferrari a go.
Blimey, the can of earth eating beasties has exploded.
On the question of build quality I have had niggles with all of my cars. The roof on the 360 has packed up and is awaiting parts. My 911 has a recurring electrical problem and is drinking oil. I get frustrated but I would not disregard either because of these issues. The 360 has my heart no matter what, try as I might to justify it going I cant bring myself to do it. The Porca on the other hand has no such loyalty from me, It's a fantastic car to be sure but in comparison I find it wanting at times.
On the question of build quality I have had niggles with all of my cars. The roof on the 360 has packed up and is awaiting parts. My 911 has a recurring electrical problem and is drinking oil. I get frustrated but I would not disregard either because of these issues. The 360 has my heart no matter what, try as I might to justify it going I cant bring myself to do it. The Porca on the other hand has no such loyalty from me, It's a fantastic car to be sure but in comparison I find it wanting at times.
Ricardo, if you'll allow me a humble suggestion? I do believe, most sincerely, that both Ferrari and Porsche are in fact equally deserving of appreciation for broadly similar reasons; those of motorsport pedigree.
They come at it from different cultural angles but both marques have soft and hard edged interpretations.
The commercial success - and thus relative ubiquity -of Porsches is probably in truth, the main thing that biases some folk.
They come at it from different cultural angles but both marques have soft and hard edged interpretations.
The commercial success - and thus relative ubiquity -of Porsches is probably in truth, the main thing that biases some folk.
derestrictor said: 8000 RPM in an F355.
Almost undeniably, as good as it gets, for a PHer.
Nobody else, to my knowledge, does a production car that intoxicates thus.
Only one other - TVR.
On another note, mduroe - the title of this thread is wrong. It is not a FACT but your personal opinion that a Boxster is better than a Ferrari.
BTW I would not choose either of these sports cars if I was in the market at this level. I would prefer a 911 to the Boxster and a V12 in the Ferrari stakes.
Sorry to hear of your misfortune Mudrow, but I had an S before I went to a 360F1..
The S was nice and I loved it.. but that’s about it. I did have a few problems with the Gearbox on the F1 but an independent sorted it out straight away. The main dealer changed the software and the independent changed the clutch)
It did 20k miles in just over 18 months.. Nothing else broke. (Apart from the three clutches it had.)
For that reason only I changed it to a manual.
I test drove a 911 GT2 for about 40 minutes taking in motorways, A roads , B roads..a couple of weeks back and would have signed on the dotted line if the sales man knew the complete price of the GT2 but he had to make a few calls about the spec and get back to me.
I got back into the 360 and yes it felt brittle, and slow in comparism, but it felt more special than the 911 GT2
It sounded better.. (Where is the sound on a GT2) (okay I have a Tubi fitted) but even the standard exhaust sounds better than the GT2….
The 360’s brakes were better than the GT2 (okay I have harder competition pads fitted) but the GT2 had ceramics. No feel to them though…
The GT2 was fast with a capital F !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Third gear was amazingly flexible but ultimately it lacked something… and this has nothing to do with badge snobbery or price..
After 2.5 years of a 360 I still haven’t found anything to replace it with .
355 lacks that final edge
911 GT2 see text above
911 TT too easy
550 too easy (was doing 140 and it felt like 60)
Lambo Muci.. errrrrrr too loud.. GF and kid would walk out…
Part of the problem is some main dealers are so used to dealing with millionaires,.. Most of them just cough up £5k per visit. And their cars just do 4k miles a year… FFS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so they just couldn’t be bothered to sort out the car for the like of myself and Joe Bloggs
I intend to drive the pants of all my cars Life is too short. If I didn’t know a really good motor sport independent.. I honestly would be in another car…
The S was nice and I loved it.. but that’s about it. I did have a few problems with the Gearbox on the F1 but an independent sorted it out straight away. The main dealer changed the software and the independent changed the clutch)
It did 20k miles in just over 18 months.. Nothing else broke. (Apart from the three clutches it had.)
For that reason only I changed it to a manual.
I test drove a 911 GT2 for about 40 minutes taking in motorways, A roads , B roads..a couple of weeks back and would have signed on the dotted line if the sales man knew the complete price of the GT2 but he had to make a few calls about the spec and get back to me.
I got back into the 360 and yes it felt brittle, and slow in comparism, but it felt more special than the 911 GT2
It sounded better.. (Where is the sound on a GT2) (okay I have a Tubi fitted) but even the standard exhaust sounds better than the GT2….
The 360’s brakes were better than the GT2 (okay I have harder competition pads fitted) but the GT2 had ceramics. No feel to them though…
The GT2 was fast with a capital F !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Third gear was amazingly flexible but ultimately it lacked something… and this has nothing to do with badge snobbery or price..
After 2.5 years of a 360 I still haven’t found anything to replace it with .
355 lacks that final edge
911 GT2 see text above
911 TT too easy
550 too easy (was doing 140 and it felt like 60)
Lambo Muci.. errrrrrr too loud.. GF and kid would walk out…
Part of the problem is some main dealers are so used to dealing with millionaires,.. Most of them just cough up £5k per visit. And their cars just do 4k miles a year… FFS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so they just couldn’t be bothered to sort out the car for the like of myself and Joe Bloggs
I intend to drive the pants of all my cars Life is too short. If I didn’t know a really good motor sport independent.. I honestly would be in another car…
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