NK , spoiling for a punch up?
Discussion
Is locking-on a declaration of war? International airspace means all planes involved were well within their rights to be there. Didn't NATO and USSR pilots play this game together during the cold war to practice.. 
..or was that Top Gun?
More of a up-yours to the US I feel. If North Korea had radio snoop planes flying 100 miles off US coast, l'm sure you would get an equal, or most likely ludicrous over-reaction from the States.
..or was that Top Gun? More of a up-yours to the US I feel. If North Korea had radio snoop planes flying 100 miles off US coast, l'm sure you would get an equal, or most likely ludicrous over-reaction from the States.
At the range these aircraft where at, the migs could have locked on via infrared (that "bubble" on the Mig-29 is an infrared tracking system IIRC) if they were just "practicing".
The only reason to paint the US plane was to provoke/scare them. I doubt the NK's would have been too pleased had they been simultaneously painted by an F16 with an AMRAAM or even an F14 carrying a Phoenix (100 nautical mile air to air range).
Just wondering, here, what is everyone's take on how to solve the NK issue? Is there an issue?
ErnestM
The only reason to paint the US plane was to provoke/scare them. I doubt the NK's would have been too pleased had they been simultaneously painted by an F16 with an AMRAAM or even an F14 carrying a Phoenix (100 nautical mile air to air range).
Just wondering, here, what is everyone's take on how to solve the NK issue? Is there an issue?
ErnestM
And Begg......and Porritt.........Well NK are paranoid and scared. They are extremely isolated and l seem to recall were willing to come in from the cold. However (details escape me) l understand that a process that appeared to be doing very well was 'scupperized' by yours truly GW Bush as one of his first acts as El Presidente.
NK l believe are mistakenly assuming that strong arm tactics where they create a situation then use it as a bargaining chip will work again.
If the West swallow their pride and start enticing the NK's with trade agreements etc.. they may see more to be gained from participating in the global community rather than acting like a sulking bully.
NK l believe are mistakenly assuming that strong arm tactics where they create a situation then use it as a bargaining chip will work again.
If the West swallow their pride and start enticing the NK's with trade agreements etc.. they may see more to be gained from participating in the global community rather than acting like a sulking bully.
funkihamsta said: Well NK are paranoid and scared. They are extremely isolated and l seem to recall were willing to come in from the cold. However (details escape me) l understand that a process that appeared to be doing very well was 'scupperized' by yours truly GW Bush as one of his first acts as El Presidente.
The NK's made a fuel deal with the US that involved them shutting down the nuclear r&d program that they had. The US found out (during the Clinton era - but it was hushed by Clinton's minions) that the NK's did not keep the bargain. When Bush took office he simply said "enough". If they don't live up to their side - we don't live up to ours.
NK l believe are mistakenly assuming that strong arm tactics where they create a situation then use it as a bargaining chip will work again.
They are mistaken - it will not work again. The old saying - "fool me once, shame on you...etc"
If the West swallow their pride and start enticing the NK's with trade agreements etc.. they may see more to be gained from participating in the global community rather than acting like a sulking bully.
Nope. Won't work - they are a Stalinist "the ends justify the means" regime. Clinton tried it with the fuel deal. They simply did not keep their side of the bargain. It's not just a matter of the west "giving them deals', it's a matter of them keeping a bargain that they will not. If we ever "don't give them enough", they will use that as an excuse to fire up the nuclear boilers again.
FWIW, I, personally, look at this as a prime opportunity for the international community to take the lead. Why hasn't the UN taken this up yet?
...also, where are all the peacenicks? After all, the NK's have (1)Withdrawn from the nonproliferation treaty and (2)have threatened to restart a nuclear generator that has but one purpose - produce weapons grade plutonium. C'mon all you protesters, where's the call for them to shut down?
By the way, Intelligence sources estimate that NK probably has two nuclear bombs/weapons right now. Unclear as to the delivery mechanism, but these rockets that they are lobbing into the sea of Japan may be candidates.
I reiterate my belief in (1)the development of a functioning ABM system and (2)share the technology with strategic "friends" across the world. The only way to defeat nuclear proliferation is to make it obsolete. Period.
All IMHO
ErnestM
>> Edited by ErnestM on Wednesday 5th March 04:49
Until the next tech comes along... orbital mass drivers lobbing passing asteroids at any poor sap underneath. Hey l've seen James Bond/Akira.
As for peaceniks, well regardless of whether the Iraq war is right/wrong it seems to me that the most anti-war protestors have no real idea how else to deal with today's international problems. Easy to criticise those that stick their necks out and commit to a course of action.
BTW the US would probably have had more support if their history of foreign intervention wasn't so chequered, and their attempts at international manipulation didn't have all the subtlety of an old man trying to blame his fart on the dog.
As for peaceniks, well regardless of whether the Iraq war is right/wrong it seems to me that the most anti-war protestors have no real idea how else to deal with today's international problems. Easy to criticise those that stick their necks out and commit to a course of action.
BTW the US would probably have had more support if their history of foreign intervention wasn't so chequered, and their attempts at international manipulation didn't have all the subtlety of an old man trying to blame his fart on the dog.
I've got it! Instead of us going to war with Iraq and the USA trying to bribe Turkey to use some bases, why not bung the turk backhander to NK, get them to wipe out Saddam. That way we all get to see what weapons both side have, once they have finished their war and are both weak we can trundle in with a couple of green goddesses and take them both out..
D.
D.
MoJocvh said:
BTW the US would probably have had more support if their history of foreign intervention wasn't so chequered, and their attempts at international manipulation didn't have all the subtlety of an old man trying to blame his fart on the dog.
This is becoming tediously boring
Really MoJocvh? It was just a bit of humour trying to shed some light on why the rest of world has a knee-jerk negative reaction and distrust of anything the US does. It was not US bashing. Thanks for your contribution though.
Hi,
Both sides were simply flying 'Right of Navigation' excercises. They were just trying to p*ss each other off. Happens all the time.
When a Soviet Tu-95 'Bear' would be tracked on intercept to our carrier, those of us aloft on BARCAP (Barrier Combat Air Patrol) at the time would be vectored to intercept and keep ourselves between it and the carrier. We'd 'paint' them and slide over close to tickle their ribs, or bank right in front of their nose causing them to evade somewhat violently, spilling their coffee or borsht in the process. They'd have their waist gunners tracking us. It was a game really. I remember one time a waist gunner flashed a mirror at our canopy to get my attention, when I looked over, he was waving and smiling and holding up a bottle of 'Pepsi'! Only real danger is working in too close and making contact such as that PRC Mig-21 did to our RS-135 last year.
The only reason this hit the media this time is because the press is trying to get a story out of it...Jim'85TE
Both sides were simply flying 'Right of Navigation' excercises. They were just trying to p*ss each other off. Happens all the time.
When a Soviet Tu-95 'Bear' would be tracked on intercept to our carrier, those of us aloft on BARCAP (Barrier Combat Air Patrol) at the time would be vectored to intercept and keep ourselves between it and the carrier. We'd 'paint' them and slide over close to tickle their ribs, or bank right in front of their nose causing them to evade somewhat violently, spilling their coffee or borsht in the process. They'd have their waist gunners tracking us. It was a game really. I remember one time a waist gunner flashed a mirror at our canopy to get my attention, when I looked over, he was waving and smiling and holding up a bottle of 'Pepsi'! Only real danger is working in too close and making contact such as that PRC Mig-21 did to our RS-135 last year.
The only reason this hit the media this time is because the press is trying to get a story out of it...Jim'85TE
LG - agree entirely -the media's warped perception of the facts inflates such an incident way beyond its true meaning.
I really would like NK try to make an iumpression on US and North Korean air assets with MiG-21s (well VChinese copies). I'd imagine a combination of AWACS, AMRAAM and quite a few JDAMs would render Kim Jong-Il's air force useless.
However there's one rather large imponderable in the Korean conundrum - China - currently goiugn through a leadership change and embracing a few "capitalist" refrorms - but an American victory under its nose would lead us back to square one and 1950 all over agian.
I really would like NK try to make an iumpression on US and North Korean air assets with MiG-21s (well VChinese copies). I'd imagine a combination of AWACS, AMRAAM and quite a few JDAMs would render Kim Jong-Il's air force useless.
However there's one rather large imponderable in the Korean conundrum - China - currently goiugn through a leadership change and embracing a few "capitalist" refrorms - but an American victory under its nose would lead us back to square one and 1950 all over agian.
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