red light and emergency vehicle...
Discussion
I think this has been done quite a lot in SP&L, but I thought I would seek the advanced driving forum's advice.
In the past when I have had to get out of the way of an emergency vehicle at traffic lights, I have been of the habit of going through the red (using my best judgement on "safety"
.
There having been some recent publicity of people who have been 'done' for so doing, I had mentally decided to follow the law.
Yesterday, I had chance to put it to the test. I was at the front at red lights in Epsom, in 3 lanes in a 1-way system. The lights are kind-of pedestrian lights which are 30 yards before the lights for a cross street.
A police transit came up behind with blues and twos going and he was in a big hurry. We all started to move aside to get out of the way and the cars to the left and right of me went through the red, but I was still in the way. The only way for me to get out of the way to let the van get through was to have gone through the red light. The BiB driving the van was getting very agitated indeed and as I decided to get out of the way through the red, the lights actually changed. He was not at all pleased and I felt like a burk for not being able to get out of the way. So much so that I will go back to my previous approach and if necc face any consquences.
What's the view of the forum?
Graham
In the past when I have had to get out of the way of an emergency vehicle at traffic lights, I have been of the habit of going through the red (using my best judgement on "safety"
. There having been some recent publicity of people who have been 'done' for so doing, I had mentally decided to follow the law.
Yesterday, I had chance to put it to the test. I was at the front at red lights in Epsom, in 3 lanes in a 1-way system. The lights are kind-of pedestrian lights which are 30 yards before the lights for a cross street.
A police transit came up behind with blues and twos going and he was in a big hurry. We all started to move aside to get out of the way and the cars to the left and right of me went through the red, but I was still in the way. The only way for me to get out of the way to let the van get through was to have gone through the red light. The BiB driving the van was getting very agitated indeed and as I decided to get out of the way through the red, the lights actually changed. He was not at all pleased and I felt like a burk for not being able to get out of the way. So much so that I will go back to my previous approach and if necc face any consquences.
What's the view of the forum?
Graham
gridgway said:
What's the view of the forum?
There was a time when this question was met by a very positive response from police and ambulance services that you should get out of the way and they would take steps to quash any action that was started against you.
I think the official line is that you should stay put, and the crew should not expect you to break any law (regardless of how harmlessly) in order to get them on their way more quickly (no matter how urgent their journey is). So now you have to decide whether you're going to be selfish and protect your own best interest, or put yourself at risk to help somebody in need.
My view is that where it can be done safely, getting out of the way is the right thing to do.
Conceivably, if it is a police vehicle behind you with noise and lights on and the crew waving at you, there could be an argument that they were instructing you to drive through the red light. I think that it is not an offense to drive through a red light when a uniformed police officer orders you to. I've never heard of this defense being used though. Anyway, I'd be inclined to do what's right and argue the toss later.
What did the Surrey CC say when you reported his vehicle for inconsiderate driving?
The real world is a place where we'd all like to get along and have the bluelight runs get past us at lights as easily and quickly as possible. We'd also like not to get points and a fine for the privilege. And I'm sure they wouldn't want to face a S3 charge for intimidating a driver out of the way.
The advanced driver's view - if you want it, and if I could propse a version - would be to see it earlier and anticipate it sooner. Driving so that you leave tyres and tarmac from the car in front allows enough manouevring room. Doing the same with the stop line does likewise.
You can sometimes see the bluelight run approaching, even before you are stopped at the lights (certainly in heavy traffic) - they don't come from nowhere. In these instances, you might be even more generous in stopping a little further back.
The real world is a place where we'd all like to get along and have the bluelight runs get past us at lights as easily and quickly as possible. We'd also like not to get points and a fine for the privilege. And I'm sure they wouldn't want to face a S3 charge for intimidating a driver out of the way.
The advanced driver's view - if you want it, and if I could propse a version - would be to see it earlier and anticipate it sooner. Driving so that you leave tyres and tarmac from the car in front allows enough manouevring room. Doing the same with the stop line does likewise.
You can sometimes see the bluelight run approaching, even before you are stopped at the lights (certainly in heavy traffic) - they don't come from nowhere. In these instances, you might be even more generous in stopping a little further back.
7db said:
The advanced driver's view - if you want it, and if I could propse a version - would be to see it earlier and anticipate it sooner. Driving so that you leave tyres and tarmac from the car in front allows enough manouevring room. Doing the same with the stop line does likewise.
You can sometimes see the bluelight run approaching, even before you are stopped at the lights (certainly in heavy traffic) - they don't come from nowhere. In these instances, you might be even more generous in stopping a little further back.
Yes I did muse over this. The lights are red for quite long. I was already stopped when I heard and subsequently saw the transit. If I were stopped further back, certainly there would be a possibility of moving to the side without going through the light. I am a habitual tyres and tarmac man in a queue of traffic, but had not extended it really to a stop line. I'll be looking at where I stop in relation to the line now!
I certainly felt pressured! I know that some emergency organisations swith off blues and twos if they are actually stuck so as not to apply pressure for people to go over the red light.
More space to be left methinks!
Graham
If it were a Fire Appliance, or an Ambulance/Paramedic behind me, I would accommodate them as they are a "Safety of Life" service. The former WILL go through the gap, even if it is a little small for them if the OiC gives the driver the order to do so.
As for the police vehicle, they can wait and thread through when there is a suitable gap as they are NOT a "Safety of Life" service.
Unless of course, it's an armed response vehicle and they look agitated.....
So, your action of staying put is on paper the right one.
It's amazing though, the amount of people who sit there oblivious to blues/sirens right behind them in a world of their own "away with the fairies". I thought that observation was a key requirement in passing one's driving test!!!
Rob.
As for the police vehicle, they can wait and thread through when there is a suitable gap as they are NOT a "Safety of Life" service.
Unless of course, it's an armed response vehicle and they look agitated.....
So, your action of staying put is on paper the right one.
It's amazing though, the amount of people who sit there oblivious to blues/sirens right behind them in a world of their own "away with the fairies". I thought that observation was a key requirement in passing one's driving test!!!
Rob.
http://old.paramedic.org.uk/news_arch
This is the link to the story re moving through a red light to let an emergency ambulance past. I think the comment about following the directions of a police officer is also doubtful as the Road Traffic acts specifiec a constable at the time engaed on duties to direct traffic. There is no exemption for any private motorist to proceed past a red light unless he is specifically directed to do so by a police officer in uniform engaged on traffic duty! As a blue light driver I do find this quite a stupid situation, but the law was introduced at a time when traffic light cameras were fiction, so the law has not caught up with the modern world. So no matter how intimidated you may be the only legal course of action is to wait for the green light! who says the laws not an ass!
This is the link to the story re moving through a red light to let an emergency ambulance past. I think the comment about following the directions of a police officer is also doubtful as the Road Traffic acts specifiec a constable at the time engaed on duties to direct traffic. There is no exemption for any private motorist to proceed past a red light unless he is specifically directed to do so by a police officer in uniform engaged on traffic duty! As a blue light driver I do find this quite a stupid situation, but the law was introduced at a time when traffic light cameras were fiction, so the law has not caught up with the modern world. So no matter how intimidated you may be the only legal course of action is to wait for the green light! who says the laws not an ass!
thunderbelmont said:
If it were a Fire Appliance, or an Ambulance/Paramedic behind me, I would accommodate them as they are a "Safety of Life" service. The former WILL go through the gap, even if it is a little small for them if the OiC gives the driver the order to do so.
As for the police vehicle, they can wait and thread through when there is a suitable gap as they are NOT a "Safety of Life" service.
Unless of course, it's an armed response vehicle and they look agitated.....
So, your action of staying put is on paper the right one.
It's amazing though, the amount of people who sit there oblivious to blues/sirens right behind them in a world of their own "away with the fairies". I thought that observation was a key requirement in passing one's driving test!!!
Rob.
As for the police vehicle, they can wait and thread through when there is a suitable gap as they are NOT a "Safety of Life" service.
Unless of course, it's an armed response vehicle and they look agitated.....
So, your action of staying put is on paper the right one.
It's amazing though, the amount of people who sit there oblivious to blues/sirens right behind them in a world of their own "away with the fairies". I thought that observation was a key requirement in passing one's driving test!!!
Rob.
Since when have we not been a safety of life service???
We attend all sorts from house fires to actually assisting ambulance as they wont put the door in. So you let the ambo past but hes sat for 5 mins waiting for us to put the door in as we are held at lights!
And dont forget assaults can turn to murder, domestics to murder, rapes, RTC's etc where we are often on scene prior to ambulance or fire and provide immediate first aid / protection for injured parties.
All 3 are emergency services. You never know who or what that call is for.
Fire go one blues for bins on fire in a carpark.
Ambo go on blues for a fall.
Police go on blues to catch burglars and yes to save life.
^Slider^ said:
All 3 are emergency services. You never know who or what that call is for.
That's why I felt I had done the "wrong thing" from two perspectives. Firstly for just not getting out the way even though it would have been technicallyy an offence. And secondly for not positioning where I could have got out of the way (not that that would have been very easy).
Graham
Im my experiance positioning is everything. If all drivers left an appropriate gap between themselves and the car in front then its soo easy for us to get through as there is room to move. But when they are all bunched up there is no room for anyone to go anywhere.
As for the red lights issue.
Yep it is an offence, but if you can get the registration of the emergency vehicle then should anything happen then make contact and give the index to the appropriate department.
I personally would do as much as i could to get them off the ticket had they moved for me.
But as always if you cross the red, be very carefull, i dont expect an immediate movement and go shooting off accross the junction, becasue by the time i get to you you would have had time to move and be safe. Also if the red light camera gets you, its gonna get me to!
Good bit of advice referance the gap at the front of the Q. Maybe that gap is big enough for us to get through or you may need to move slightly over without crossing the lights and we are clear.
Also if there is another route for us to take, i will take it if safe to do so, but if making you move is the safest then youll soon know about it. If i can get past you without you needing to move i will. But sometimes its safer to get you to move than cross the junction of the offside.
As for the red lights issue.
Yep it is an offence, but if you can get the registration of the emergency vehicle then should anything happen then make contact and give the index to the appropriate department.
I personally would do as much as i could to get them off the ticket had they moved for me.
But as always if you cross the red, be very carefull, i dont expect an immediate movement and go shooting off accross the junction, becasue by the time i get to you you would have had time to move and be safe. Also if the red light camera gets you, its gonna get me to!
Good bit of advice referance the gap at the front of the Q. Maybe that gap is big enough for us to get through or you may need to move slightly over without crossing the lights and we are clear.
Also if there is another route for us to take, i will take it if safe to do so, but if making you move is the safest then youll soon know about it. If i can get past you without you needing to move i will. But sometimes its safer to get you to move than cross the junction of the offside.
Nearly had one of these yesterday. Saw the blue lights, and was at the red light line (three lanes). I'd left an entire lane clear for him, so no need to hang back from line.
The empty lane then filled up with cars, so that I was the obvious lane - with just one car in - for him to cross the red light (which stayed red forever).
Was kicking myself for not following my advice above, and about to reverse out when he turned off down a sidestreet. Phew.
The empty lane then filled up with cars, so that I was the obvious lane - with just one car in - for him to cross the red light (which stayed red forever).
Was kicking myself for not following my advice above, and about to reverse out when he turned off down a sidestreet. Phew.
^Slider^ said:
Since when have we not been a safety of life service???
We attend all sorts from house fires to actually assisting ambulance as they wont put the door in. So you let the ambo past but hes sat for 5 mins waiting for us to put the door in as we are held at lights!
And dont forget assaults can turn to murder, domestics to murder, rapes, RTC's etc where we are often on scene prior to ambulance or fire and provide immediate first aid / protection for injured parties.
All 3 are emergency services. You never know who or what that call is for.
Fire go one blues for bins on fire in a carpark.
Ambo go on blues for a fall.
Police go on blues to catch burglars and yes to save life.
We attend all sorts from house fires to actually assisting ambulance as they wont put the door in. So you let the ambo past but hes sat for 5 mins waiting for us to put the door in as we are held at lights!
And dont forget assaults can turn to murder, domestics to murder, rapes, RTC's etc where we are often on scene prior to ambulance or fire and provide immediate first aid / protection for injured parties.
All 3 are emergency services. You never know who or what that call is for.
Fire go one blues for bins on fire in a carpark.
Ambo go on blues for a fall.
Police go on blues to catch burglars and yes to save life.
Firstly, if you go into a burning house, you'll probably have the Health & Safety Police after you. The fact that you'd be a bloody hero is neither here nor there. It's not your job!
Just like the times when we're told not to defend ourselves against intruders because it's the job of the police to do that.
You try doing that when due to H.O. cutbacks, your local station has been closed and the nearest one is almost 20 miles away, at night, when they won't pay overtime (you know the drill), so there are only three officers on duty to cover the whole division.
Now, your "job" is to enforce the law. Not to save lives. If you save lives through enforcing the law, then that's a bonus. The job of the fire service, and the ambulance & paramedic trusts is purely to save life (& property in the case of the fire).
I accept that your job of "door knocking" is a valid passtime for assisting the boys in green at a house fire, trumpton often turn up second, they'll open it!! In my experience of the forces around here, it's a close call between Ambulance or Trumpton as to who's there first, and the constabulary turn up with 10 cars (two to do the work, the other eight to have a look/get in the way) about five minutes later.
You all deserve better funding, for more and better resources.
Here's one for you - Advanced Vehicle Location System - so control can see where you are in relation to the incident that was called in..... What do you mean no way?
I have yet to find a copper on the ground, other than firearms, who thinks it's a good idea. But it could improve response times with relation to the above, and control would target only the vehicles they wanted to go there, not depleting resources from other areas.
And what happened to that system which could control the lights as you approached? I know that the MET tend to call all red, which I feel is probably not the best course of action, given what we're discussing here.
It I carry on like this, I'll run out of twopenny bits.
Rob.
Interesting point of view you have.
Not actually based in any reality at all and clearly little understanding of the average officer I know.
Point of FACT for you. I have personally saved three lives I can think of due to timely arrival. All three of these people would had I not arrived when I did or within seconds of my arrival time, managed to jump to their deaths. I ONLY POST THAT AS A POINT OF REFERNCE NOT IN ANY EFFORT TO MAKE MYSELF LOOK HEROIC !
FACT every FATAC and RTC I have never arrived after the fire service or ambulance service.
FACT I would never sit outside a burning car/ building just because its not in my job description. If I heard cries for help then I would risk my life. Its what i'm paid for. If I die on duty then so be it. Sometimes its the price we pay.
FACT I don't want to be called a hero or be wearing a chest full of medals. In fact most officers could not care less and I really don't. I regularly do things outside my role in an effort to save and preserve life.
FACT fire briagade will attend all calls on blue and two's even when we have cancelled them as you can't cancel the fire brigade. All three services are carrying out work that a few minutes stuck in traffic could impact upon the outcome. To try to say one is more important than the other is a pointless argument.
Sitting here right now I could fill the page with examples of times that timely arrival has prevented death or serious injury.
Its quite clear you have a very strong opinion on the matter based on a very odd vision of the police service and our role.
Back to the point though. In my view if a police officer gives you a direct instruction to move aside (waving you on) I would view any ticket invalid. Take the registration number of the car and use it to refer to. Although you would still have to be sensible (move enough for them to get through and no more) Personaly I would ensure any ticket is cancelled. Worse case scenario conviction at court then absolute discharge based on the circumstances.
Not actually based in any reality at all and clearly little understanding of the average officer I know.
Point of FACT for you. I have personally saved three lives I can think of due to timely arrival. All three of these people would had I not arrived when I did or within seconds of my arrival time, managed to jump to their deaths. I ONLY POST THAT AS A POINT OF REFERNCE NOT IN ANY EFFORT TO MAKE MYSELF LOOK HEROIC !
FACT every FATAC and RTC I have never arrived after the fire service or ambulance service.
FACT I would never sit outside a burning car/ building just because its not in my job description. If I heard cries for help then I would risk my life. Its what i'm paid for. If I die on duty then so be it. Sometimes its the price we pay.
FACT I don't want to be called a hero or be wearing a chest full of medals. In fact most officers could not care less and I really don't. I regularly do things outside my role in an effort to save and preserve life.
FACT fire briagade will attend all calls on blue and two's even when we have cancelled them as you can't cancel the fire brigade. All three services are carrying out work that a few minutes stuck in traffic could impact upon the outcome. To try to say one is more important than the other is a pointless argument.
Sitting here right now I could fill the page with examples of times that timely arrival has prevented death or serious injury.
Its quite clear you have a very strong opinion on the matter based on a very odd vision of the police service and our role.
Back to the point though. In my view if a police officer gives you a direct instruction to move aside (waving you on) I would view any ticket invalid. Take the registration number of the car and use it to refer to. Although you would still have to be sensible (move enough for them to get through and no more) Personaly I would ensure any ticket is cancelled. Worse case scenario conviction at court then absolute discharge based on the circumstances.
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