Important ....leafleats enclosed with the NIP.
Discussion
To all you leagl types and interested parties out there.
Received an NIP this morning (you may remeber a problem with one my wife received several months ago, well in order to protect her and get it sorted sombody needs to take the points
).
The NIP came from the Warickshire Police.
Attached (very helpfully) with the NIP were two other documents. One a fold out fact and fiction booklet, entitled "dispelling the myths", you can imagine what its like
.
The worst leaflet is an FAQ type job, which is more worrying. I will type a few of the Q and Answers for you to read as I'm sure that some of the things stated run the tightrope bewteen legal and not.
This is an actual document and if anybody wants a copy e-mail me off line and I will fax it through for you to have a look at.
Q1. Can I have a copy of the Photographic Evidence?
A. No, the evidence is to support a prosecution case. The purpose of the photographic evidence is to identify the vehicle.
Q2. Can I have a copy of the Calibration certificate?
A. No, all certification is correct and meets the required standards. The certification is to support a prosecution case.
Q3. Are the police really going to waste time the courts time if I ignore this fine?
A. It is not a waste of time. It is the duty of the police to bring alleged offences before the courts.
Q4. Are the sites legal?
A. All the sites ashere to current government legislation.
To add to this on the other leaflet was the comment:-
Fiction. This is a total violation of my Human rights.
Fact. The Human rights act allows the rights of society to be weighed against the rights of individuals. The privy council ruling on a case from Sctoland, has stated that a person's human rights under the act are not infringed by this process!!
I'm not a legal type, I only have the bits of info I've picked from this and other websites. But, I believe this is an attempt by Warwickshire central ticket office and by the Camera partnership to scare, convince people to claim the NIP without going through the court route. Most annoying for me was Q3.
The police don't seem intersted in some other types of crime, perhaps its the fact they get extra money from the cameras that makes them particularly agressive in following up prosecutions.
I suspect they sought legal advice before sending this but I can't believe that its all correct.What are your opinions?
As for my NIP I will send it through (oops clumsy me I forgot to sign it
) and take the knuckle wrap.
Received an NIP this morning (you may remeber a problem with one my wife received several months ago, well in order to protect her and get it sorted sombody needs to take the points
). The NIP came from the Warickshire Police.
Attached (very helpfully) with the NIP were two other documents. One a fold out fact and fiction booklet, entitled "dispelling the myths", you can imagine what its like
. The worst leaflet is an FAQ type job, which is more worrying. I will type a few of the Q and Answers for you to read as I'm sure that some of the things stated run the tightrope bewteen legal and not.
This is an actual document and if anybody wants a copy e-mail me off line and I will fax it through for you to have a look at.
Q1. Can I have a copy of the Photographic Evidence?
A. No, the evidence is to support a prosecution case. The purpose of the photographic evidence is to identify the vehicle.
Q2. Can I have a copy of the Calibration certificate?
A. No, all certification is correct and meets the required standards. The certification is to support a prosecution case.
Q3. Are the police really going to waste time the courts time if I ignore this fine?
A. It is not a waste of time. It is the duty of the police to bring alleged offences before the courts.
Q4. Are the sites legal?
A. All the sites ashere to current government legislation.
To add to this on the other leaflet was the comment:-
Fiction. This is a total violation of my Human rights.
Fact. The Human rights act allows the rights of society to be weighed against the rights of individuals. The privy council ruling on a case from Sctoland, has stated that a person's human rights under the act are not infringed by this process!!
I'm not a legal type, I only have the bits of info I've picked from this and other websites. But, I believe this is an attempt by Warwickshire central ticket office and by the Camera partnership to scare, convince people to claim the NIP without going through the court route. Most annoying for me was Q3.
The police don't seem intersted in some other types of crime, perhaps its the fact they get extra money from the cameras that makes them particularly agressive in following up prosecutions.
I suspect they sought legal advice before sending this but I can't believe that its all correct.What are your opinions?
As for my NIP I will send it through (oops clumsy me I forgot to sign it
) and take the knuckle wrap.
My line of thinking is, how can you build a defence case if you are unable to see or not given access to the prosecution evidence?
Worst statement must be the human rights violation.
For example an officer tortures a suspect believed to be plotting a terrorist act, does the fact that he could be saving tens to hundreds of lives (societies rights outweighing the individuals rights)support the tourture of the person in custody? What about if this got to court would his confession under torture be admissable? This is obviously one end of the scale but its the same arguement surely?
Worst statement must be the human rights violation.
For example an officer tortures a suspect believed to be plotting a terrorist act, does the fact that he could be saving tens to hundreds of lives (societies rights outweighing the individuals rights)support the tourture of the person in custody? What about if this got to court would his confession under torture be admissable? This is obviously one end of the scale but its the same arguement surely?
that dont have to give you em at all
only when you go to court for your defence
just writ say you need to see photo so you can help them find who was friving at the time
as you do not remember.
and send it recorded and keep a copy
if they dont send it back too write back and say you are unable too help them with the identiy of the drive.
they will then drop it ir take you you court
they will have to do you fror failing to fill in the nip.
this will be a valid defence to no filling it in
plead not guilty and explain you can not remember that day and you aske for the photo so you could help ID who was driving the car that day
and show the cort the copies of the letters and recorde detail of delivery
case droped
only when you go to court for your defence
just writ say you need to see photo so you can help them find who was friving at the time
as you do not remember.
and send it recorded and keep a copy
if they dont send it back too write back and say you are unable too help them with the identiy of the drive.
they will then drop it ir take you you court
they will have to do you fror failing to fill in the nip.
this will be a valid defence to no filling it in
plead not guilty and explain you can not remember that day and you aske for the photo so you could help ID who was driving the car that day
and show the cort the copies of the letters and recorde detail of delivery
case droped
deltaf said: What are they on? NO? Its your legal right to be supplied with evidence theyre gonna use against you!
What the fluck do these feckwits think they are?
Try telling me NO!!!! idiots!
Its only your right to have disclosure of evidence if you plead not guilty to a summons or a charge.
You are not entitled to anything under FPT procedure until you get the summons and send it back saying NOT GUILTY. You will then be provided with everything about the case that is used or unused disclosure material.
The letters you write to them requesting the photographic evidence to assist you in identifying the driver - that you can't remember etc are important evidence in your defence - particularly when you can show three or four that you have written - politely and helpfully and the police and CPS have ignored. Just such a series of letters enabled a colleague to have his case dismissed
This approach by the Police has been argued as nothing more than demanding money with menaces.
Useful advice on how to deal with this is posted here:
www.pepipoo.com/NewForums/viewtopic.php?t=36&highlight=&sid=c262c4e575989b2c7c4c269586a2d206
Good luck
Useful advice on how to deal with this is posted here:
www.pepipoo.com/NewForums/viewtopic.php?t=36&highlight=&sid=c262c4e575989b2c7c4c269586a2d206
Good luck
Deadly Dog said: This approach by the Police has been argued as nothing more than demanding money with menaces.
Its called blackmail. Its legal if the demand is a legal one. Much the same if the gas board send you a threatening letter that says they will cut you off for failing to pay the bill.
That too is athreatening letter for money but is allowed. It is only not allowed if the demand is not warranted in law.
I have just read Mikas letter. He is obviously not legally qualified. Most Chief Constables would split their sides reading that. It is not worth the paper it is written on. He should have looked at the rules of disclosure of evidence before he wrote the letter. Until they change then that letter is nothing more than useless 
Madcop......Maybe so, but look at his subsequent message :
"I am not a lawyer but I have knowledge on criminal law. Legal minds may argue over this matter but, the fact is, that of all the people who have written the letter (as forwarded to you yesterday), to the (respective)
Chief Constable, not a single one of them has been summoned for the speeding offence. Furthermore, they have not even received a letter to say, 'no further action' Nothing!!!"
"I am not a lawyer but I have knowledge on criminal law. Legal minds may argue over this matter but, the fact is, that of all the people who have written the letter (as forwarded to you yesterday), to the (respective)
Chief Constable, not a single one of them has been summoned for the speeding offence. Furthermore, they have not even received a letter to say, 'no further action' Nothing!!!"
Mika makes no claim to be legally qualified and has stated this in a number of communications. He is however very well read on the subject of Traffic Law and operates a commendable service, helping drivers to obtain proper justice for alleged traffic offences.
If you read the post carefully you will notice he is actually posting information that was suggested to him. He makes no endorsement to its effectiveness and invites debate on the topic. However I doubt that he would publish information on his forum if there were not some degree of credibility attached to it. The results appear to indicate that this method does actually work.
Whether or not the Police's approach here constitutes blackmail in the eyes of the law is perhaps immaterial with respect to public relations. It is the perception of being intimidated/blackmailed that counts. The system, which is loaded in favour of the prosecution, takes full advantage of people's lack of knowledge of their rights and, in many cases, their ability to afford decent legal advice. One thing is certain - the system is morally corrupt. However, as it would only take about 20% of speeding tickets to be challenged for the system to collapse, it is easy to see why such desperate tactics are used to keep it alive. Any other organisation caught operating with this kind of policy would win a prime slot on BBC's Watchdog.
The analogy of the Gas Board, in all fairness, is probably not a good example. A utility company will normally send out several reminder letters before invoking threats of legal action. I would liken the approach described here as more akin to a loan shark - i.e. using bullying tactics and warnings of severe legal and financial penalties as soon as a client steps out of line. These sharks often operate well within the law and there is little an unfortunate punter can do but suffer the consequences. However this approach to matters does not exactly endear these companies to people's hearts. Neither is their conduct morally sound.
There is a very good saying in life:
"Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools"
Speeding is an absolute offence but once upon a time we had the ACPO 10% + 2mph guideline and, far more importantly, a Police Officer's discretion. Many of the wise men have now gone. They have been replaced, more often than not it would appear, by machines and fools whose sole purpose is to support a vicious anti-car agenda and raise huge sums of cash in the process - all dressed up in the name of safety.
It may well be that a Chief Constable will "split his sides" reading this letter. However should someone very dear to him become the victim of a serious crime but a key witness to the incident subsequently receive one of these intimidating NIPs, his fit of giggles may come to an abrupt halt.
If you read the post carefully you will notice he is actually posting information that was suggested to him. He makes no endorsement to its effectiveness and invites debate on the topic. However I doubt that he would publish information on his forum if there were not some degree of credibility attached to it. The results appear to indicate that this method does actually work.
Whether or not the Police's approach here constitutes blackmail in the eyes of the law is perhaps immaterial with respect to public relations. It is the perception of being intimidated/blackmailed that counts. The system, which is loaded in favour of the prosecution, takes full advantage of people's lack of knowledge of their rights and, in many cases, their ability to afford decent legal advice. One thing is certain - the system is morally corrupt. However, as it would only take about 20% of speeding tickets to be challenged for the system to collapse, it is easy to see why such desperate tactics are used to keep it alive. Any other organisation caught operating with this kind of policy would win a prime slot on BBC's Watchdog.
The analogy of the Gas Board, in all fairness, is probably not a good example. A utility company will normally send out several reminder letters before invoking threats of legal action. I would liken the approach described here as more akin to a loan shark - i.e. using bullying tactics and warnings of severe legal and financial penalties as soon as a client steps out of line. These sharks often operate well within the law and there is little an unfortunate punter can do but suffer the consequences. However this approach to matters does not exactly endear these companies to people's hearts. Neither is their conduct morally sound.
There is a very good saying in life:
"Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools"
Speeding is an absolute offence but once upon a time we had the ACPO 10% + 2mph guideline and, far more importantly, a Police Officer's discretion. Many of the wise men have now gone. They have been replaced, more often than not it would appear, by machines and fools whose sole purpose is to support a vicious anti-car agenda and raise huge sums of cash in the process - all dressed up in the name of safety.
It may well be that a Chief Constable will "split his sides" reading this letter. However should someone very dear to him become the victim of a serious crime but a key witness to the incident subsequently receive one of these intimidating NIPs, his fit of giggles may come to an abrupt halt.
Guys
I have read with intrest all of the your comments.
And just have a couple of things I want to say, without appearing to climb onto my soapbox.
Not being legally minded or trained in any way (my legal experience coming straight from places like this forum and the 'bloke next door' acadamey) and although I find many of the posts on what to do and say interesting, I think I will personally go the conventional route, as I don't want to end up in front of the magistrates.
I will however seek legal advice on the letter that was distributed. As many of you pointed out I beleive it is nothing more than a well written demand for money with menaces( the menace in this case being the threat of huge fines and not being able to get any evidence).
I beleive that the Camera partnership thinks it can speed up its process by intimidating people with little or no legal knowledge. Thereby going the easiest route and claiming guilt.
Ok the bottom line is that we have offended and have broken a law of the land for which there is a punishment. I don't think many people would argue with this. What is arguable is the seemingly arbitrary way that speed limits have been varied, the positioning and increased number of cameras and the now total lack of 'Human' control in determining the speeding offence.
Where will the Governments drive to reduce casulties and deaths stop? Will they stop us from drinking alchol and smoking? Will they stop us from using electrical items in the home? will they ban us from using power tools during DIY? A bit draconian perhaps.
But who can tell what will happen in 10-20 years time.
Until this or sucessive Governments supply a meaningful, effective, cheap and reliable alternative to personnal car usage then I have no choice but to use my car. I'm just a single vote but if we disgruntelled motorists were to speak with our votes, the government would soon see the ditrust and displeasure.
Just my 2p worth.
I have read with intrest all of the your comments.
And just have a couple of things I want to say, without appearing to climb onto my soapbox.
Not being legally minded or trained in any way (my legal experience coming straight from places like this forum and the 'bloke next door' acadamey) and although I find many of the posts on what to do and say interesting, I think I will personally go the conventional route, as I don't want to end up in front of the magistrates.
I will however seek legal advice on the letter that was distributed. As many of you pointed out I beleive it is nothing more than a well written demand for money with menaces( the menace in this case being the threat of huge fines and not being able to get any evidence).
I beleive that the Camera partnership thinks it can speed up its process by intimidating people with little or no legal knowledge. Thereby going the easiest route and claiming guilt.
Ok the bottom line is that we have offended and have broken a law of the land for which there is a punishment. I don't think many people would argue with this. What is arguable is the seemingly arbitrary way that speed limits have been varied, the positioning and increased number of cameras and the now total lack of 'Human' control in determining the speeding offence.
Where will the Governments drive to reduce casulties and deaths stop? Will they stop us from drinking alchol and smoking? Will they stop us from using electrical items in the home? will they ban us from using power tools during DIY? A bit draconian perhaps.
But who can tell what will happen in 10-20 years time.
Until this or sucessive Governments supply a meaningful, effective, cheap and reliable alternative to personnal car usage then I have no choice but to use my car. I'm just a single vote but if we disgruntelled motorists were to speak with our votes, the government would soon see the ditrust and displeasure.
Just my 2p worth.
Madcop do normally read your posts with interest 
but I think comparing a nip with a demand for a gas bill is rather rich. 
An nip is a matter of criminal law and therefore should reflect all the safe guards that the state gives to the innocent before they can be found guilty, none payment of a gas bill is a civil matter and the obligations and the rights of the parties are very different.
In my view the judgement by the Privy Council on the nip and the ECHR is deeply floored, and may be over turned in Luxembourg when a case finally gets heard. As is stated else where you could apply the Privy Council opinion to allow the torturing of defendants on the grounds that it is in the public interest to catch criminals. Nice idea but better not.
but I think comparing a nip with a demand for a gas bill is rather rich. An nip is a matter of criminal law and therefore should reflect all the safe guards that the state gives to the innocent before they can be found guilty, none payment of a gas bill is a civil matter and the obligations and the rights of the parties are very different. In my view the judgement by the Privy Council on the nip and the ECHR is deeply floored, and may be over turned in Luxembourg when a case finally gets heard. As is stated else where you could apply the Privy Council opinion to allow the torturing of defendants on the grounds that it is in the public interest to catch criminals. Nice idea but better not.
tonybav said: Madcop do normally read your posts with interest
It was only an exampleof demanding money with menacs (blackmail), to illustrate that blackmail is not illegal if the demand is warranted in the first instance.
I know I would rather receive a letter from the gas board cutting me off for late or non payment than an NIP.
In my case, I am more likley to get the former than the latter
Take it from one who deals with hundreds of these a day
Madcop speaks with authority!
Did you speed? If theyve caught you take it on the chin - unless you want to go down the risky "dont sign the form" route?
As for disclosure then the CIPA doesnt compel the prosecution to disclose until you go "not out".
Then Im sure youd be getting the whole defence pack - phots and all.
Its unfortunately a game these days. Who's got the best loophole or witty solicitor.
The sooner we go to paper cases and stop wasting witnesses time at court for minor cases the better.
Oh now theres a new thread!
Madcop speaks with authority!
Did you speed? If theyve caught you take it on the chin - unless you want to go down the risky "dont sign the form" route?
As for disclosure then the CIPA doesnt compel the prosecution to disclose until you go "not out".
Then Im sure youd be getting the whole defence pack - phots and all.
Its unfortunately a game these days. Who's got the best loophole or witty solicitor.
The sooner we go to paper cases and stop wasting witnesses time at court for minor cases the better.
Oh now theres a new thread!
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