944 - what to do?!
Discussion
I've decided that I'd like a 944 for pootling in and would like the opinions of the massed horde of knowledgabuble PH types viz
Which one?
Obviously the sensible choice is a 16Ver with low miles.
So that's not going to happen.
So - onto the real question.
220turbo or 250turbo - does it really make that much difference and what is liable to be wrong with them?
Or an S2. Does the lack of a turbo make it a bit flaccid?
And buying tips. Lots and lots of buying tips. Where are the weak points and could a fule like me spot them easily enough? Where are those stickers that tell you what the spec is and how much dodgy shenanigans can an unscrupulous seller get up to?
Fire away
Which one?
Obviously the sensible choice is a 16Ver with low miles.
So that's not going to happen.
So - onto the real question.
220turbo or 250turbo - does it really make that much difference and what is liable to be wrong with them?
Or an S2. Does the lack of a turbo make it a bit flaccid?
And buying tips. Lots and lots of buying tips. Where are the weak points and could a fule like me spot them easily enough? Where are those stickers that tell you what the spec is and how much dodgy shenanigans can an unscrupulous seller get up to?
Fire away
Alright Dave!,
Glad to see you have come around to the power of the dark side! (Or is it just the way your trousers ruck up?)
Can't say anything about the turbos or 16 valvers specifically, but list of problems I had to sort on my 8v:
Brake Calipers - all bleed nipples and hose connection seized, requireing new calipers, flexi hoses and solid lines all round. Check that the calipers have obviously been bled recently (i.r. the nipple isn't just a lump of rust like mine were!)
Sills - check for rust - mine needed a few patches, try jacking the car up on the central point (for the jack in the boot) and on the ends of the sills (on a trolley jack etc), and if you hear any cruching etc, poke about with a screwdriver, get an inspection by a pro or walk away.
Head Gasket - probably worth a test - mine seemed OK, but then went less than 1000 miles later, and the head was
ed!!!
Fuel Filter - at the back, on the driver's side just above the driveshaft. Check it's been replaced at the annual servicing, as it's a real ball-ache to remove if it hasn't been done for years and as a result is rusted solid.
Given the horrific costs of some fixes on these cars, I'd really recommend getting it checked out by a specialist (such as Hartech etc) - they're dead easy to keep as long as nothing is neglected. It is really important to keep on top of things, and the servie history should reflect this.
Glad to see you have come around to the power of the dark side! (Or is it just the way your trousers ruck up?)
Can't say anything about the turbos or 16 valvers specifically, but list of problems I had to sort on my 8v:
Brake Calipers - all bleed nipples and hose connection seized, requireing new calipers, flexi hoses and solid lines all round. Check that the calipers have obviously been bled recently (i.r. the nipple isn't just a lump of rust like mine were!)
Sills - check for rust - mine needed a few patches, try jacking the car up on the central point (for the jack in the boot) and on the ends of the sills (on a trolley jack etc), and if you hear any cruching etc, poke about with a screwdriver, get an inspection by a pro or walk away.
Head Gasket - probably worth a test - mine seemed OK, but then went less than 1000 miles later, and the head was
ed!!! Fuel Filter - at the back, on the driver's side just above the driveshaft. Check it's been replaced at the annual servicing, as it's a real ball-ache to remove if it hasn't been done for years and as a result is rusted solid.
Given the horrific costs of some fixes on these cars, I'd really recommend getting it checked out by a specialist (such as Hartech etc) - they're dead easy to keep as long as nothing is neglected. It is really important to keep on top of things, and the servie history should reflect this.
planetdave said:
Obviously the sensible choice is a 16Ver with low miles.
YEP, OR A 16v normal/hi miallage which has been looked after
planetdave said:
220turbo or 250turbo - does it really make that much difference and what is liable to be wrong with them?
supposed to be not very driveable around town, hi petrol consumption
planetdave said:
Or an S2. Does the lack of a turbo make it a bit flaccid?
nope S2 is great, drive it like you stole it
planetdave said:
And buying tips. Lots and lots of buying tips. Where are the weak points and could a fule like me spot them easily enough? Where are those stickers that tell you what the spec is and how much dodgy shenanigans can an unscrupulous seller get up to?
belts need to have been done
proovabel servcie history
loads of recipts
well cared for
As above, and see recent 944 threads, loads of info and pro's and con's, none of the models are what you could call bad cars, just some have strengths in certain areas, ask youself how you think you will be driving to justify the turbo.......
I am loving my S2 16V, it does everything I need, a turbo would be nice but I made a choice and went for the more sensible (cheaper but slower) option.
Now, if they had made a 16V turbo.......
do get one with either service history or one that's enthusiast owned and has had all the expensive work done.
Don't be put off by milage, buy on condition, and as I've said before, never buy the first one you see, and take somebody along that knows what they are looking at. (ideally invest in a specialist inspection from somebody reccommended).
Good luck.
Andy.
I am loving my S2 16V, it does everything I need, a turbo would be nice but I made a choice and went for the more sensible (cheaper but slower) option.
Now, if they had made a 16V turbo.......
do get one with either service history or one that's enthusiast owned and has had all the expensive work done.
Don't be put off by milage, buy on condition, and as I've said before, never buy the first one you see, and take somebody along that knows what they are looking at. (ideally invest in a specialist inspection from somebody reccommended).
Good luck.
Andy.
Get yourself to the Hartech website & check out the buying guide. It worked for me. Interestingly they don't rate the 16V as it costs a bomb when you have to change the chains. The sprockets are cast into the camshafts so you have to buy the whole lot. Same problem on the 968. I went for a very nice late s1 2.5. Nobody has ever said that its slow!
Its all down to budget. But 10 grand is Boxter money now.
All the best!
Its all down to budget. But 10 grand is Boxter money now.
All the best!
silverS2 said:
ask youself how you think you will be driving to justify the turbo.......
and other good stuff
Andy.
and other good stuff
Andy.
Thanks for the replies so far, guys
If you take into account that I already have a 2.8 Capri then something lukewarm isn't really going to grab me by the cohones. If I wanted sensible then a 200SX or SoarerTT would go on my drive. As for a turbo being daft round town.....well...I am a driving god so that's not going to be a problem
That or my budget will extend to an aftermarket drivability kit. As for not buying the first one I see - I don't want to be a test pilot or miss out on a beauty just coz it's the first one. How will I know when I fall over a beauty? It's not as if I'm going to get to hang the tail out on a test drive (would you let me do that?).
Anyone tell the diff between the 220 and 250 turbos? Would some git try to pass a 220 off as a 250 and fule the unwary? Do the wheelarches go? Keep on with the advice for the noob
edited for foolish none reading of previous posts
Edited by planetdave on Tuesday 10th October 22:17
Alright Dave,
The 944s are all galvanised, so rust isn't a BIG problem, but they are at least 14 years old by now, so you do have to check here and there - if the wheelarches are full of crap there's a good chance that there will be a bunch of siezed bolts in there, if not actual corrosion to the bodywork...
Can't see there being much issue between a 220 and 250 turbo - if you're plonking an aftermarket kit on it you'll end up with a totally driveable 300 bhp (ish) whichever turbo you start with IIRC.
DISCLAIMER - I bought a bit of a lemon (now fixed) so FFS also get advice from someone smarter than me
But having said that, if it looks good, and a good look underneath shows no knackered/rusted solid botls etc, with obviously new filters and good condition fuel lines (esp the flexi hoses round the filter) and good condition brake lines, piped and calipers with no corrosion buggering up the bleed nipples, it's probably a good'un
But I'd still recommend getting it professionally inspected - if the seller is cagey about you getting it inspected, run away. No harm buying the first one you see, as long as you're sure it's a good one.
Edited to add
Unlike the Mighty Copenhagen, a 944 will not wag it's tail like an overexcited spaniel at the first hint of damp, unless you really drive like a hooligan
The 944s are all galvanised, so rust isn't a BIG problem, but they are at least 14 years old by now, so you do have to check here and there - if the wheelarches are full of crap there's a good chance that there will be a bunch of siezed bolts in there, if not actual corrosion to the bodywork...
Can't see there being much issue between a 220 and 250 turbo - if you're plonking an aftermarket kit on it you'll end up with a totally driveable 300 bhp (ish) whichever turbo you start with IIRC.
DISCLAIMER - I bought a bit of a lemon (now fixed) so FFS also get advice from someone smarter than me
But having said that
, if it looks good, and a good look underneath shows no knackered/rusted solid botls etc, with obviously new filters and good condition fuel lines (esp the flexi hoses round the filter) and good condition brake lines, piped and calipers with no corrosion buggering up the bleed nipples, it's probably a good'un But I'd still recommend getting it professionally inspected - if the seller is cagey about you getting it inspected, run away. No harm buying the first one you see, as long as you're sure it's a good one.
Edited to add
Unlike the Mighty Copenhagen, a 944 will not wag it's tail like an overexcited spaniel at the first hint of damp, unless you really drive like a hooligan
Edited by Fatboy on Wednesday 11th October 09:08
If you really want a turbo - first decide how much you are going to modify it. Reason being that if you are looking at a 250hp turbo S, it is likely to have adjustable Koni suspension, S4 big brakes and a LSD - all good if you're going to limit your tweaks to chipping/ wastegate. If you plan on building a track day weapon and you're going to be replacing the suspension with aftermarket stuff etc, the lower cost of a 220hp car is potentially a better start point since you'll be replacing much of the upgraded stuff on the turbo S anyway.
Having said that - a stock turbo S is a superior drive to a 220hp - its not just another 30hp.
I've got a mildly tweaked turbo S (a Silver Rose) -15lb boost and 968 M030 sway bars and a fairly extensively 'sorted' 968 race car. Both are way quicker and than a mates 2.8 turbo Capri and you can't begin to compare the handling - wet or dry.
Don't write of an S2 just yet - having always had turbos (Subaru Legacy's, Mitsubishi GTO twin turbo, Porsche 944t) - I would have to say the torque anywhere of the 968 has a lot going for it over the waiting, waiting, boooosttt!!! of the '44.
Having said that - a stock turbo S is a superior drive to a 220hp - its not just another 30hp.
I've got a mildly tweaked turbo S (a Silver Rose) -15lb boost and 968 M030 sway bars and a fairly extensively 'sorted' 968 race car. Both are way quicker and than a mates 2.8 turbo Capri and you can't begin to compare the handling - wet or dry.
Don't write of an S2 just yet - having always had turbos (Subaru Legacy's, Mitsubishi GTO twin turbo, Porsche 944t) - I would have to say the torque anywhere of the 968 has a lot going for it over the waiting, waiting, boooosttt!!! of the '44.
If you want to modify it then bigger brakes of 250 car will be an advantage. The even bigger brakes (big red/black)will bolt straight on with the correct discs (and the back plates cut away). 290BHP is probably possible with the k26/6 fitted to the 220 cars 330 with the 26/8 on the 250 cars (with torque figures close to or exceeding the BHP numbers to scare the GT3s). Any more and you will need a bigger turbo anyway.
250 cars have stronger 1st and 2nd gears, LSD and gearbox cooler as standard (cooler and lsd were optional on 220 cars). Standard cars may feel slow and laggy as the wastegate is probably weak and wasting the boost.
late 250 cars usually have sports seats, leather and AC, 88 year cars had no sunroof, which you may or may not prefer but mostly they are silver rose (pink) with nasty cloth. Lots of info on rennlist and also the Porsche Club GB forum,
Tony
250 cars have stronger 1st and 2nd gears, LSD and gearbox cooler as standard (cooler and lsd were optional on 220 cars). Standard cars may feel slow and laggy as the wastegate is probably weak and wasting the boost.
late 250 cars usually have sports seats, leather and AC, 88 year cars had no sunroof, which you may or may not prefer but mostly they are silver rose (pink) with nasty cloth. Lots of info on rennlist and also the Porsche Club GB forum,
Tony
Just to make it clear (following Nuberglover's correct comment) that we do not rate the S1 16 Valve 2.5 litre because it has all the expense of the S2 with usually no better (often worse) performance than an 8 valve (not always admittedly but more often than not) and is certainly proving less reliable for starting and tickover problems as they age.
However we rate the S2 16 V 3 litre very highly indeed - in fact I would say they are probably the best Porsche buy in terms of value for money right now.
They can be a little expensive for a while but what superb all round performance you get for your money - well worth it.
The low revs torque of the 8 valve and the S2 enable them to be pleasurable even when driving
in restricted conditions (which these days is often 80% of the time) and help preserve the life of the mechanical parts as the car gets older (because although some of the mechanical parts increase wear, vibration and dynamic loads in direct proportion to revs - others increase with the square of the speed or even more) and the last thing that an S1 is good at is driving at low revs in traffic.
Baz Hartech
However we rate the S2 16 V 3 litre very highly indeed - in fact I would say they are probably the best Porsche buy in terms of value for money right now.
They can be a little expensive for a while but what superb all round performance you get for your money - well worth it.
The low revs torque of the 8 valve and the S2 enable them to be pleasurable even when driving
in restricted conditions (which these days is often 80% of the time) and help preserve the life of the mechanical parts as the car gets older (because although some of the mechanical parts increase wear, vibration and dynamic loads in direct proportion to revs - others increase with the square of the speed or even more) and the last thing that an S1 is good at is driving at low revs in traffic.
Baz Hartech
Then don't spend money on PCGB & go here:-
www.porsche-1.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=9495
Very genuine car that's had loads spent on it.
www.porsche-1.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=9495
Very genuine car that's had loads spent on it.
and in fact you don't need to be a member to see most sections including the 'For Sale' bit 
www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=232339
www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=232339
diver944 said:
and in fact you don't need to be a member to see most sections including the 'For Sale' bit
www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=232339
www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=232339
Thank you for that. It seems to include a by-pass for the membership requirement to see the 'cars for sale' section
PCGB website said:
This part of the site is for Porsche Club Great Britain Members only
I bought a 944 quite a few years ago after running a Alfa Guilia Spider, a TR-6, a hot rod 544 Sport, and a TVR 2500 M and a whole host of Volvos in my married life. When I got the 944 I felt like I was BORN AGAIN. They are powerful for their 2.5 litres, equal in every way and superior to the vaunted 240-Z car that stormed SCCA racing in the US back in the 1970s, and the Z had a six cylinder motor.
By modern standards the 2.5 (8 valve) isn't a fast car on acceleration, but it's a blindingly fast car cross country, able to handle roads as well or better than just about anything else I know, short of very expensive exotics.
The 944 chassis still does exceptionally well each year in SCCA autocrossing, and it goes up against any other Porsche, generally losing to race prepped 914s or modern cars that are exceptionally well set up and driven equally well.
I also have a 16V S2 cab and a 928. They all have their own personalities, and I still love to go for a blast in that 4-cylinder hot rod. The drive beautifully. If you want to drag race, buy something else. If you are content to gain acceleration and then enjoy power at selected gears at speed, and carve up the countryside, you COULD DO A LOT WORSE than buy a 8-valve 944. Mine is a 1984 and it's less complicated than the 85-1/2 that added more expensive AC switching etc., the oval dashboard, and then onward later to the 16V motors. The 16V S2 is faster than most Porsche owners realize. It has very satisfying power off the line, and at speed look out, those 4-valves per cylinder pull like a freight train right to redline.
My 1983 928 was the fastest car sold in North America that year, going faster than any Corvette, Trans Am, Porsche Turbo, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, whatever. Believe it or not, the 1990 4-cylinder S2 "is AS FAST" or even a little faster than the V8 bruiser that was built to dominate the autobahns of the hinterland.
They're all great cars, don't underestimate the fun factor of having a 2.5 normally aspirated 8-valve.
Regards,
Dogsharks
By modern standards the 2.5 (8 valve) isn't a fast car on acceleration, but it's a blindingly fast car cross country, able to handle roads as well or better than just about anything else I know, short of very expensive exotics.
The 944 chassis still does exceptionally well each year in SCCA autocrossing, and it goes up against any other Porsche, generally losing to race prepped 914s or modern cars that are exceptionally well set up and driven equally well.
I also have a 16V S2 cab and a 928. They all have their own personalities, and I still love to go for a blast in that 4-cylinder hot rod. The drive beautifully. If you want to drag race, buy something else. If you are content to gain acceleration and then enjoy power at selected gears at speed, and carve up the countryside, you COULD DO A LOT WORSE than buy a 8-valve 944. Mine is a 1984 and it's less complicated than the 85-1/2 that added more expensive AC switching etc., the oval dashboard, and then onward later to the 16V motors. The 16V S2 is faster than most Porsche owners realize. It has very satisfying power off the line, and at speed look out, those 4-valves per cylinder pull like a freight train right to redline.
My 1983 928 was the fastest car sold in North America that year, going faster than any Corvette, Trans Am, Porsche Turbo, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, whatever. Believe it or not, the 1990 4-cylinder S2 "is AS FAST" or even a little faster than the V8 bruiser that was built to dominate the autobahns of the hinterland.
They're all great cars, don't underestimate the fun factor of having a 2.5 normally aspirated 8-valve.
Regards,
Dogsharks
hi the main factor when i bought my 84 2.5 8v was i was going to do all the service and repairs my self. and have done for 2 years now im not sure you can with a 3ltr 16v s2 it was that cam chain set up that i was not sure about.if you have the funds to take it to a porsche work shop thats fine but as a mercanic for 20 years i would not start a s2 whith out looking at the chain nowing what will hapen if it breaks.so thats 5oo notes before i would drive one.but thats just me
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