993 turbo - 450 upgrade
Discussion
Thinking about installing the Porsche 450hp kit. What's would be the best plan with the new turbo's once the engine is started for the first time? How do the new turbos (bearings) need to be bedded in (if at all)? I've heard that you should run the engine at about 1500 rpm for a few minutes to bed the bearings in. However, I've also read that the turbos have been tested before they are sold to the customer, so surely they have some kind of run time on thenm already?
Experiences greatly received
Experiences greatly received
Phill Woolley has a 450 car with factory fitted kit. Might be cheaper to px your car for this, rather than have the conversion done yourself. www.911sport.co.uk
Ruf conversion is about 20k GBP inc vat. I can get the porsche kit (K24s, new ECU, oil cooler, quad exhaust tips for nearly a quarter of the price (inc fitting). Also, I'll be able to sell the old ECU and turbos so it becomes even cheaper. I know the RUF is a different type of conversion but it will cost me another 16k GBP so it's not really comparable.
I'm taking the opportunity while the back bumper and cats are off (sports cats being installed, alot of the heatshields being replaced etc). A big piece of labour is already done doing this work.
I'm taking the opportunity while the back bumper and cats are off (sports cats being installed, alot of the heatshields being replaced etc). A big piece of labour is already done doing this work.
silver993tt said:
Thinking about installing the Porsche 450hp kit. What's would be the best plan with the new turbo's once the engine is started for the first time? How do the new turbos (bearings) need to be bedded in (if at all)? I've heard that you should run the engine at about 1500 rpm for a few minutes to bed the bearings in. However, I've also read that the turbos have been tested before they are sold to the customer, so surely they have some kind of run time on thenm already?
Experiences greatly received
Experiences greatly received
Mine already had this kit when I bought it, so I don't have running in experience. However, from an engineering point of view, the important thing is making sure that all air has been purged out of the oil feed lines to the turbos before they spin up. Hence I'd want to let the engine idle for a few minutes so that the oil pressure has had time to push through the lines and establish lubrication at the turbo bearings before they start turning. This will also allow any air in the new oil cooler (part of the kit) to be circulated out.
Once the oil feed to the bearings is OK, I'd consider that you're ready to rock and roll - no particular bedding in required. If you have any doubts then you'd be well-advised to post a question to Kevin on Rennlist forum - he's da man for 993 turbos it seems.
Just have to add my £0.02 - my RS tuning stage 1 ecu, techart cats, and techart sports exhausts gave me 448bhp, and my car was MUCH quicker than the factory 450 cars i compared it with.
If this is the first stage in a slipery slope then go ahead and talk to Kevin on Rennlist about his hybrids rather than getting the straight K24's, he'll let you know what you can expect using what components, but i have first hand experience in this area (K16's with RS map versus factory 450 kit) and i know which way i would go (same way i did the first time!).
If you are anywhere near Kent, ask Alan (aceparts) for a ride in his car. He's now got my RS Tuning ecu and you'll find it very hard to believe it's only 448bhp....
If this is the first stage in a slipery slope then go ahead and talk to Kevin on Rennlist about his hybrids rather than getting the straight K24's, he'll let you know what you can expect using what components, but i have first hand experience in this area (K16's with RS map versus factory 450 kit) and i know which way i would go (same way i did the first time!).
If you are anywhere near Kent, ask Alan (aceparts) for a ride in his car. He's now got my RS Tuning ecu and you'll find it very hard to believe it's only 448bhp....
Yep, check out the Cargraphic website (they flog RS stuff):
www.cargraphic.com/index.php?/s,6,7,18,713,1290,1052/
Worth a chat to Tech 9 in Liverpool (Ba, Te), who would give more advice.
www.cargraphic.com/index.php?/s,6,7,18,713,1290,1052/
Worth a chat to Tech 9 in Liverpool (Ba, Te), who would give more advice.
verysideways said:
Just have to add my £0.02 - my RS tuning stage 1 ecu, techart cats, and techart sports exhausts gave me 448bhp, and my car was MUCH quicker than the factory 450 cars i compared it with.
If this is the first stage in a slipery slope then go ahead and talk to Kevin on Rennlist about his hybrids rather than getting the straight K24's, he'll let you know what you can expect using what components, but i have first hand experience in this area (K16's with RS map versus factory 450 kit) and i know which way i would go (same way i did the first time!).
If you are anywhere near Kent, ask Alan (aceparts) for a ride in his car. He's now got my RS Tuning ecu and you'll find it very hard to believe it's only 448bhp....
If this is the first stage in a slipery slope then go ahead and talk to Kevin on Rennlist about his hybrids rather than getting the straight K24's, he'll let you know what you can expect using what components, but i have first hand experience in this area (K16's with RS map versus factory 450 kit) and i know which way i would go (same way i did the first time!).
If you are anywhere near Kent, ask Alan (aceparts) for a ride in his car. He's now got my RS Tuning ecu and you'll find it very hard to believe it's only 448bhp....
I take your point about other options. However, one of my options would be to keep the old ecu (from 1997) and then get a custom map built that takes into account the new cats and anything else that differs in my car.
My belief is that with the upgrade it will give it a good base for further tweaks if I ever get the time - I know about the K24 hybrids
Porsche designed the electronics to deliver 408bhp with K16's, so on a hot day you may develop the full 0.8 bar but on a cold day you may only develop 0.6 bar (because the ecu is bleeding the rest off).
RS Tuning figure if the engine is designed to take 0.8 bar (sustained) then whenever the turbos can provide it they should. Hot, cold, whatever, as long as the fuelling and ignition can cope (they can) then why not? The power jumps 10% (which is nice) but the torque between about 4k rpm and 7k rpm increases by about 100lbft over the standard map...
No reason why this shouldn't be as reliable and sturdy as the standard set up, but it will be more prone to temperature fluctuations (like so many other cars which feel quicker on cold mornings).
RS Tuning figure if the engine is designed to take 0.8 bar (sustained) then whenever the turbos can provide it they should. Hot, cold, whatever, as long as the fuelling and ignition can cope (they can) then why not? The power jumps 10% (which is nice) but the torque between about 4k rpm and 7k rpm increases by about 100lbft over the standard map...
No reason why this shouldn't be as reliable and sturdy as the standard set up, but it will be more prone to temperature fluctuations (like so many other cars which feel quicker on cold mornings).
Adam B said:
would K16s with a remap imply running higher boost than K24s to achieve the same 450ish bhp?
I assume so and would imagine that has wear implications on turbos and other components, or am I wide of the mark?
I assume so and would imagine that has wear implications on turbos and other components, or am I wide of the mark?
Not really - you could turn up the boost running either model of turbo, but that is a trade off of engine life versus peak boost pressures. The smaller K16s spin up to speed faster so cars thus equipped come on boost a bit quicker. The advantages of the K24 are their higher volumetric throughput, so once up to speed and at full bore, they should be able to maintain boost levels right up to the rev-limit where the K16s might be reaching their throughput limits.
In practice, a well-prepared K16 equipped car will probably be faster than a slightly laggier K24 equivalent. Running my car against Martyn's at VMax, his K16 equipped car with sports exhaust and replacement cats had a slight edge on my standard 450 bhp kitted car. Back then he was hitting the timing beams at around 180 mph (best I managed was 172) - last week he achieved 193 with the latest upgrades - PHENOMENAL for a 993 turbo in my opinion.
So as noted above, lots can be done with the standard K16s before going any further, and selecting an upgrade that increases the turbo lag may be a step in the wrong direction.
Not at Vmax but on another "private road", best i ever had out of my standard 993tt was 174 with very little left, it might have done 176mph eventually.
After the ECU/cats/exhausts i hit 194mph with very little left, it might have done 195, maybe 196mph.
*both GPS recorded, speedo was about 6 or 7 mph optimistic
After the ECU/cats/exhausts i hit 194mph with very little left, it might have done 195, maybe 196mph.
*both GPS recorded, speedo was about 6 or 7 mph optimistic
thanks for the replies
I was not saying the K16s are not capable of the higher figure or that it is not a better solution than K24s, just that wear and tear is a consideration in the decision, K16s running at 0.8 all the time wear more than peaking at 0.8 (although 0.8 is fairly modest I guess)
incidentally is a 993TT 408bhp or 408PS, in the same way a 996TT is 420PS/414bhp?
I was not saying the K16s are not capable of the higher figure or that it is not a better solution than K24s, just that wear and tear is a consideration in the decision, K16s running at 0.8 all the time wear more than peaking at 0.8 (although 0.8 is fairly modest I guess)
incidentally is a 993TT 408bhp or 408PS, in the same way a 996TT is 420PS/414bhp?
Yep - VMax is obviously not really a max given that you run out of road and jump on the brakes. I think that mine would keep going given the necessary length of road to over 185 mph - the TUV cert states that the car should be capable of 300 kph. However, if the gearing allows it I reckon that Martyn's car should be capable of 200 mph or more given the appropriate private road or autobahn.
verysideways said:
Porsche designed the electronics to deliver 408bhp with K16's, so on a hot day you may develop the full 0.8 bar but on a cold day you may only develop 0.6 bar (because the ecu is bleeding the rest off).
RS Tuning figure if the engine is designed to take 0.8 bar (sustained) then whenever the turbos can provide it they should. Hot, cold, whatever, as long as the fuelling and ignition can cope (they can) then why not? The power jumps 10% (which is nice) but the torque between about 4k rpm and 7k rpm increases by about 100lbft over the standard map...
No reason why this shouldn't be as reliable and sturdy as the standard set up, but it will be more prone to temperature fluctuations (like so many other cars which feel quicker on cold mornings).
RS Tuning figure if the engine is designed to take 0.8 bar (sustained) then whenever the turbos can provide it they should. Hot, cold, whatever, as long as the fuelling and ignition can cope (they can) then why not? The power jumps 10% (which is nice) but the torque between about 4k rpm and 7k rpm increases by about 100lbft over the standard map...
No reason why this shouldn't be as reliable and sturdy as the standard set up, but it will be more prone to temperature fluctuations (like so many other cars which feel quicker on cold mornings).
My understanding is that you are getting the same 'effective' boost at 0.6 bar on a cold day as 0.8 bar on a hot day because the air is denser when it's cold. If the air is more dense, you don't need as much boost to pass through the same amout of combustable oxygen. Therefore, 0.6 on a cold day is the same 'effective' boost as 0.8 on a hot day.
silver993tt said:
My understanding is that you are getting the same 'effective' boost at 0.6 bar on a cold day as 0.8 bar on a hot day because the air is denser when it's cold. If the air is more dense, you don't need as much boost to pass through the same amout of combustable oxygen. Therefore, 0.6 on a cold day is the same 'effective' boost as 0.8 on a hot day.
yep that sounds my like my understanding, turbo cars work better at colder temps
silver993tt said:
My understanding is that you are getting the same 'effective' boost at 0.6 bar on a cold day as 0.8 bar on a hot day because the air is denser when it's cold. If the air is more dense, you don't need as much boost to pass through the same amout of combustable oxygen. Therefore, 0.6 on a cold day is the same 'effective' boost as 0.8 on a hot day.
Exactly, which is why on a cold day you need less boost to produce that 408bhp (or is it PS?), but if you crank up the boost to 0.8 again you are cramming more air in, which means you can put more fuel in, which means you can get more power
verysideways said:
silver993tt said:
My understanding is that you are getting the same 'effective' boost at 0.6 bar on a cold day as 0.8 bar on a hot day because the air is denser when it's cold. If the air is more dense, you don't need as much boost to pass through the same amout of combustable oxygen. Therefore, 0.6 on a cold day is the same 'effective' boost as 0.8 on a hot day.
Exactly, which is why on a cold day you need less boost to produce that 408bhp (or is it PS?), but if you crank up the boost to 0.8 again you are cramming more air in, which means you can put more fuel in, which means you can get more power
so the remap gives you 450bhp on a cold day but the stock 408bhp on a hot day?
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