A3 closure yesterday
Discussion
Yesterday early evening the A3 was closed between the A244 and Tolworth. It seems that it was because of an accident. I hope nobody was killed or badly hurt and extend my sympathies to anyone involved and their loved ones.
The reason for this post, however, is to comment and enquire about traffic management surrounding such incidents.
There were electronic signs before the M25 northbound saying "A3 closed after A244". That was helpful because the M25 offered an outlet for traffic. However (and I have wondered this after a similar incident in the past), I am at a loss as to why the signs don't also carry the following information:
(i) the name of a town close to the relevant junction. Even though that is the exit for my father's house, I could not have identified it with just "A244", so the addition of "Oxshott", "Walton" or similar would have been helpful and would have stopped me having to grab my road atlas and have a look at it during the start of the traffic jam;
(ii) the junction after which the road re-opens again. I've never understood why that information is not presented, in the interest of keeping traffic flowing and not costing thousands of man-hours. Thousands of us last night guessed that we might be able to rejoin the A3 at Hook (and to have headed initially for another junction further up would have required more detour calculation), but we were wrong, resulting in further, very long, delays. The first we knew that we could not rejoin at Hook was when we got to the start of the Hook slip road and found a lorry and cones blocking it off.
Result? 2 hours (vs. the usual 10 minutes or so? just an approximation - not intended to be an incriminating statement!) to get from the M25 junction to Tolworth, despite having left the A3 before Cobham (eventually rejoining at Tolworth).
I appreciate that (some) police are likely to have been busy dealing with the collision itself but would it not make sense to make sure there are people and/or signs at the point of diversion to provide information about how far round the detour would need to be, and to post signs along the detour route to enable motorists to be sufficiently informed to make the right decisions to save everyone a lot of time? The roundabout, after Esher, that offers exits to the A307 Kingston and the A3 at Hook would have been a good place to have information. It is not as if the relevant locations were not accessible by police motorbike...
It has struck me when there have been accidents in London resulting in road closure that there have always been a lot of police close to the incident, directing people around it, but none a few junctions away who could divert people earlier and prevent the huge traffic jams from occurring. I realise they will only be doing as they are ordered but it has never made sense to me.
The reason for this post, however, is to comment and enquire about traffic management surrounding such incidents.
There were electronic signs before the M25 northbound saying "A3 closed after A244". That was helpful because the M25 offered an outlet for traffic. However (and I have wondered this after a similar incident in the past), I am at a loss as to why the signs don't also carry the following information:
(i) the name of a town close to the relevant junction. Even though that is the exit for my father's house, I could not have identified it with just "A244", so the addition of "Oxshott", "Walton" or similar would have been helpful and would have stopped me having to grab my road atlas and have a look at it during the start of the traffic jam;
(ii) the junction after which the road re-opens again. I've never understood why that information is not presented, in the interest of keeping traffic flowing and not costing thousands of man-hours. Thousands of us last night guessed that we might be able to rejoin the A3 at Hook (and to have headed initially for another junction further up would have required more detour calculation), but we were wrong, resulting in further, very long, delays. The first we knew that we could not rejoin at Hook was when we got to the start of the Hook slip road and found a lorry and cones blocking it off.
Result? 2 hours (vs. the usual 10 minutes or so? just an approximation - not intended to be an incriminating statement!) to get from the M25 junction to Tolworth, despite having left the A3 before Cobham (eventually rejoining at Tolworth).
I appreciate that (some) police are likely to have been busy dealing with the collision itself but would it not make sense to make sure there are people and/or signs at the point of diversion to provide information about how far round the detour would need to be, and to post signs along the detour route to enable motorists to be sufficiently informed to make the right decisions to save everyone a lot of time? The roundabout, after Esher, that offers exits to the A307 Kingston and the A3 at Hook would have been a good place to have information. It is not as if the relevant locations were not accessible by police motorbike...
It has struck me when there have been accidents in London resulting in road closure that there have always been a lot of police close to the incident, directing people around it, but none a few junctions away who could divert people earlier and prevent the huge traffic jams from occurring. I realise they will only be doing as they are ordered but it has never made sense to me.
Agency management of road delays is appalling.
BiB have indicated that when they are dealing with a serious incident on the railways they are under severe and continuous pressure from the rail operating authority to get the line open again. They point out there is absolutely no pressure from the Highways Agency or local authority arising from a road or m-way closure.
Both forms of transport managers are also guilty of not providing enough customer information imo, as you indicate.
BiB have indicated that when they are dealing with a serious incident on the railways they are under severe and continuous pressure from the rail operating authority to get the line open again. They point out there is absolutely no pressure from the Highways Agency or local authority arising from a road or m-way closure.
Both forms of transport managers are also guilty of not providing enough customer information imo, as you indicate.
cheeky said:
That's very sad news.
It's not the length of the closure that concerns me though - it's the communication and management of traffic after the closure.
It's not the length of the closure that concerns me though - it's the communication and management of traffic after the closure.
The worst are when you are in an unfamiliar part of the country and are following diversion signs which inexplicably stop in some obscure place and leave you to find your own way to where you would have been without the diversion.
Agreed, very sad news indeed.
BiB are attempting to reduce the length of road closures under their own initiative using the ever increasing techno evidence gathering kit available to them. They're aware of the possible adverse consequences of unnecessary delays to living people, not just the inconvenience of course it can have more impact than that though being stuck for several hours can itself be a life threatener for some medical conditions.
BiB are attempting to reduce the length of road closures under their own initiative using the ever increasing techno evidence gathering kit available to them. They're aware of the possible adverse consequences of unnecessary delays to living people, not just the inconvenience of course it can have more impact than that though being stuck for several hours can itself be a life threatener for some medical conditions.
cheeky said:
That's very sad news.
It's not the length of the closure that concerns me though - it's the communication and management of traffic after the closure.
It's not the length of the closure that concerns me though - it's the communication and management of traffic after the closure.
No, I realised you were concerned about the lack of signs, etc .... not the time the road was shut. If alternative routes get clogged there is often little that can be done. If you are not helped at all to find those routes that is another thing.
Signs for collisions on that bit of the A3 (and many roads in general) need to be better - the police often can't do anything other than the initial closures. They simply don't have the signs. That job is down to the people who manage the roads for the government and are on 'call out'. The police get it in the neck because signs don't go up and closures don't go in quick enough with the agency people often stuck in the traffic jams. They work hard but information often gets mixed up as IMO too many people are involved in the process.
If I was at work yesterday I would have been managing the scene of the collision - that, unfortunately, is my specialism within the police. There is a serious amount of work to do at fatal collisions with the officer in charge being answerable to the Coroner if they miss anything out. I always try to do all I can to ensure people don't get stuck but it is, basically, impossible given the current system and the levels of traffic on our roads.
I have tried to highlight the need for extra signs on the A3 before but it just isn't happening as far as I see. Loads of money is, though, spent and the M25 with the extra number of gantry signs is an example of warning stuff not present years ago that clearly helps.
FWIW my wife was stuck in the jam for ages and a friend going in for work at 9.30pm phoned me to ask directions as there was insufficient signing. My wife said 'diversion' signs were present but misleading and then stopped. She said they were so bad she wonders if they were, infact, connected at all - the trouble was people followed them from the A3 out towards Leatherhead!
I intend again speak to the people who can potentially have some effect on this but don't hold your breath in the short term. More on my opinions are not really suitable for the web ! All I would add is that those involved actually do care and work hard - it is just the system needs shall we say 'refining'
. john57 said:
cheeky said:
That's very sad news.
It's not the length of the closure that concerns me though - it's the communication and management of traffic after the closure.
It's not the length of the closure that concerns me though - it's the communication and management of traffic after the closure.
No, I realised you were concerned about the lack of signs, etc .... not the time the road was shut. If alternative routes get clogged there is often little that can be done. If you are not helped at all to find those routes that is another thing.
Signs for collisions on that bit of the A3 (and many roads in general) need to be better - the police often can't do anything other than the initial closures. They simply don't have the signs. That job is down to the people who manage the roads for the government and are on 'call out'. The police get it in the neck because signs don't go up and closures don't go in quick enough with the agency people often stuck in the traffic jams. They work hard but information often gets mixed up as IMO too many people are involved in the process.
If I was at work yesterday I would have been managing the scene of the collision - that, unfortunately, is my specialism within the police. There is a serious amount of work to do at fatal collisions with the officer in charge being answerable to the Coroner if they miss anything out. I always try to do all I can to ensure people don't get stuck but it is, basically, impossible given the current system and the levels of traffic on our roads.
I have tried to highlight the need for extra signs on the A3 before but it just isn't happening as far as I see. Loads of money is, though, spent and the M25 with the extra number of gantry signs is an example of warning stuff not present years ago that clearly helps.
FWIW my wife was stuck in the jam for ages and a friend going in for work at 9.30pm phoned me to ask directions as there was insufficient signing. My wife said 'diversion' signs were present but misleading and then stopped. She said they were so bad she wonders if they were, infact, connected at all - the trouble was people followed them from the A3 out towards Leatherhead!
I intend again speak to the people who can potentially have some effect on this but don't hold your breath in the short term. More on my opinions are not really suitable for the web ! All I would add is that those involved actually do care and work hard - it is just the system needs shall we say 'refining'
. I can imagine!
Thanks for an interesting response.
There were no diversion signs when I was on (or near) the A3, between 17:30 and 20:00, which sounds like it may have been early on.
You're right about the electronic signs on and near the M25 helping, but I don't understand why they didn't add a few words to tell everyone the point from which they'd be able to rejoin the A3, e.g. "A3 closed from A244 (Oxshott) to Tolworth". There looked to be enough room on the sign and those few extra words would have saved a lot of people a lot of time, even without strategic positioning of other signs both on the diversion routes and on A3 approach roads.
Lastly I should add that I wasn't completely clear about it earlier when I said that people and signs ought to be positioned so as to be able to aid traffic flow. I didn't think those people need necessarily be police - indeed, if we have a Highways Agency then that's the sort of thing that seems to me to be an ideal role for it.
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