How fast can the Police go? & NIP query
Discussion
Lets just imagine:
Driving along on a bright and sunny day on a dual carriageway at a speed that a police car's equipment might register as 98, and the police stop you.
Subsequent statement by officer of the law - 'we knew you were going fast as we watched you when we were with someone else we'd stopped...'
Here the GCSE maths question comes up:
Problem
One car was travelling at 98 and it passes a stationary police car (unmarked Volvo) whose occupants (2) are 'dealing' with someone for speeding.
Question 1.a.
How long does it take for the stationary car's occupants to finish what they are doing, deposit offender, rejoin the carriageway in a safe manner and catch up with the car that passed them?
Question 1.b.
Is it possible for the police car to catch up with the other car without it going 'bloody quickly'?
Now we move to GCSE philosophy...
If speed is a problem, and is what is being policed, how fast can the police actually go?
Physics?
The difference between 98mph and 70mph is 28mph - less than the speed limit in many residential areas. Speed differential is the crucial factor in any existence of hazard surely?
The difference between 70mph and the speed necessary for the stationary police car to catch the other vehicle is likely to be in excess of 120mph - speed differential of 50mph or greater above 70mph.
Are the police regulated in any way (save for how fast the T5 will do...) as to their speed when enforcing 'we've having a crackdown on people speeding on this stretch'?
GCSE LAW
Side issue for any legal eagles: What actually qualifies as a NIP? Does a vagues statement such as 'I'll inform my commanding officer and he may choose to pursue an action' count as one? Has it ever been challenged in court? Does it have a statutory determination?
English Language
Notice: announcement or warning
Intend: to have as ones purpose
Prosecution: prosecuting
That was my two cents... I'm Ken Brockman about to watch Alfie on the BBC...
Driving along on a bright and sunny day on a dual carriageway at a speed that a police car's equipment might register as 98, and the police stop you.
Subsequent statement by officer of the law - 'we knew you were going fast as we watched you when we were with someone else we'd stopped...'
Here the GCSE maths question comes up:
Problem
One car was travelling at 98 and it passes a stationary police car (unmarked Volvo) whose occupants (2) are 'dealing' with someone for speeding.
Question 1.a.
How long does it take for the stationary car's occupants to finish what they are doing, deposit offender, rejoin the carriageway in a safe manner and catch up with the car that passed them?
Question 1.b.
Is it possible for the police car to catch up with the other car without it going 'bloody quickly'?
Now we move to GCSE philosophy...
If speed is a problem, and is what is being policed, how fast can the police actually go?
Physics?
The difference between 98mph and 70mph is 28mph - less than the speed limit in many residential areas. Speed differential is the crucial factor in any existence of hazard surely?
The difference between 70mph and the speed necessary for the stationary police car to catch the other vehicle is likely to be in excess of 120mph - speed differential of 50mph or greater above 70mph.
Are the police regulated in any way (save for how fast the T5 will do...) as to their speed when enforcing 'we've having a crackdown on people speeding on this stretch'?
GCSE LAW
Side issue for any legal eagles: What actually qualifies as a NIP? Does a vagues statement such as 'I'll inform my commanding officer and he may choose to pursue an action' count as one? Has it ever been challenged in court? Does it have a statutory determination?
English Language
Notice: announcement or warning
Intend: to have as ones purpose
Prosecution: prosecuting
That was my two cents... I'm Ken Brockman about to watch Alfie on the BBC...
More interestingly and if someone wants to do the maths as I've got too much on!!
If you pass a police car at the side of the road with no measuring equipment it raises two questions:
a. Do they even bother to follow you...maybe in a loud TVR etc
b. If they do follow you how long will it take them to get started and catch up. ie. do you have enough time to pull off at the next junction and disappear.
Any thoughts
If you pass a police car at the side of the road with no measuring equipment it raises two questions:
a. Do they even bother to follow you...maybe in a loud TVR etc
b. If they do follow you how long will it take them to get started and catch up. ie. do you have enough time to pull off at the next junction and disappear.
Any thoughts
I have passed a police car on the M1 which was hidden behind a bridge. I nailed it and my mate behind on his bike had a big enough gap to slow down as they pulled out and came after me.
You don't have long but if you keep up the speed you will get 1 junction ahead before they catch you.
For reference I passed him at 160mph so I would not try it at a lesser speed as you might as well walk straight to jail.
You don't have long but if you keep up the speed you will get 1 junction ahead before they catch you.
For reference I passed him at 160mph so I would not try it at a lesser speed as you might as well walk straight to jail.
Clearly, they can do what they want.....It appears the dangers of excessive speed do not apply to them.
Something to do with magic.
Its because they are trained class 1 drivers and they are driving police cars with big flashing blue lights on the front and back. Most public move out of the way of a police car traveling over 100mph but some don't if a non police car comes up behind them, and some even pull into the speeding cars path just to slow it down.
Just my 2ps worth
JustinP
Or small lights behind the grill of the Volvo. They weren't that visible, due to the cromed spendour of the Volvo grill and you obviously have to be looking in the rear view mirror to see them.
Would have been far safer when travelling at those kind of speeds to have used the sirens to alert road users of a police car travelling at such high speeds, but then you'd probably meet fewer targets as the cars they were trying to nail would also hear them...
Would have been far safer when travelling at those kind of speeds to have used the sirens to alert road users of a police car travelling at such high speeds, but then you'd probably meet fewer targets as the cars they were trying to nail would also hear them...
If there were two officers together and they both were of the opinion that you were exceeding the limit, they do not even have to get a reading of your speed. They can guess/estimate your speed and the courts will accept that as it is expert evidence. Police are experts in two things. Drunkeness and speed.
The NIP is as follows " You will be reported for consideration of the question of prosecuting you for the offence of ....."
It must be said exactly so at the time of being stopped or must be enforced with the sending of a written copy of the NIP to you within 14 days from the day after the offence.
The summons can be served on you or your C/O who will be informed by the police.
The Police can exceed the limits for Police purposes. It does not say instatute how fast the limit may be exceeded.
However, if the Police driver makes a mistake at high speeds (if he is still around to prosecute) He will come under the same rules as anyone else. The fact that he was just trying to do his job is not a consideration if he ends up in court and not on a mortuary slab.
The answer is he can go as fast as he likes/the car will go as long as he does not commit other offences whilst doing so.
>> Edited by madcop on Wednesday 12th March 10:30
The NIP is as follows " You will be reported for consideration of the question of prosecuting you for the offence of ....."
It must be said exactly so at the time of being stopped or must be enforced with the sending of a written copy of the NIP to you within 14 days from the day after the offence.
The summons can be served on you or your C/O who will be informed by the police.
The Police can exceed the limits for Police purposes. It does not say instatute how fast the limit may be exceeded.
However, if the Police driver makes a mistake at high speeds (if he is still around to prosecute) He will come under the same rules as anyone else. The fact that he was just trying to do his job is not a consideration if he ends up in court and not on a mortuary slab.
The answer is he can go as fast as he likes/the car will go as long as he does not commit other offences whilst doing so.
>> Edited by madcop on Wednesday 12th March 10:30
justinP said: Its because they are trained class 1 drivers and they are driving police cars with big flashing blue lights on the front and back.
Does that make them immune from having accidents that kill innocent people? Unfortunately not. It seems to me that by chasing someone at these speeds, they are greatly increasing the risk of an accident happening, rather than improving the safety of the roads. I certainly don't condone idiots driving at dangerous speeds on motorways, wether they are members of the public or officers of the law. Surely the whole point of having radio's is that chases like this can be avoided?
Mr2Mike said:
Surely the whole point of having radio's is that chases like this can be avoided?
No, the point of having radios is so that they can talk to one another. Chases can only be avoided if an air support unit is available, and as these are often shared resources (with the county ambulance service) that isn't always the case. Personally I'm of the opinion that it isn't the BiB that cause the accidents, it's thedirty little
Mr2Mike said:
justinP said:
Does that make them immune from having accidents that kill innocent people...
Not immune, but less likely. After all speeding does not kill, poor driving does!
JustinP
I would class doing 120mph+ on a busy motorway as poor driving.
Thats a matter of opinion !
I was once following a guy who had fallen asleep and veered off the dual carriageway into a hedge. I stopped and made sure he was ok, phoned for an ambulance.
Instead of the ambulance, I got 4 panda cars and two volvos and I witnessed them come screaming down the opposite carriageway before turning and coming back.
OK if one comes screaming down, but after that, surely when the first guy radio'd in the situation there would be no need for another 5 cars to break the sound barrier!
After giving details etc, I went on my way and still never saw the ambulance.
Instead of the ambulance, I got 4 panda cars and two volvos and I witnessed them come screaming down the opposite carriageway before turning and coming back.
OK if one comes screaming down, but after that, surely when the first guy radio'd in the situation there would be no need for another 5 cars to break the sound barrier!
After giving details etc, I went on my way and still never saw the ambulance.
fish said: Interestingly I was talking to a copper friend of mine who works in Salford and as I understand it if they have an incident in their Police car ie crash it or dink it when giving chase it goes on their civy record against their private car insurance. That doesn't seem fair to me.
Thats quite correct.
Any accident is reportable to all insurance companys who are to consider the risk on you.
Police vehilce accidents are no different from any other accident and we are told that if an accident occurs whilst driving a police vehilce for police purposes, then that is relevant to your own risk on your private cover.
It does not pay to drive a police vehicle in a way that you are likley to become involved in a comming together as it can have an effect on your personal insurance cover. Insurance companys share information betwen themselves. There is no avoiding the claim form submited to rectify damage to the police vehicle and therefore the details are put into the insurers system.
Most forces have a system of penalty points on your police permit which work exactly the same as a civilian court.
Police permits (usually depending on the force) show the permit holders driving licence number and his/her entitlement to specific performance ratings for vehicle type and for vehicle use. These range from standard uses (pottering around taking statements in a 1000 cc Corsa) to High performance pursuit trained for trafffic trained officers.
12 points in 3 years means a withdrawal of the permit and permission to drive Police vehicles. The points are usually awarded by the head of the Traffic department wjo is usually Chief Supt rank, after he has had the full report about the circumstances of the collision.
Even minor scratches attract 3 points on the permit.
I'll just throw my 2p worth in here:
Reasons why the Police can drive at high speed:
1) Excellent training
2) Cars with sirens and blue flashing lights
More importantly there are reasons why they should. In the event of a genuine emergency where *time is of the essence* a skilled police driver may be able to get emergency services personnel to the emergency site swifter and thereby save lives.
The police driver is asked to make a decision - is it worth the additional risk of a high speed drive which might endanger lives in order to create an opportunity to perhaps save additional lives at the emergency site.
The same choice holds true for chasing a loon who is endangering others by driving poorly and at speed.
Where its worth it I WANT our emergency service to GO FAST and GET THERE to save lives. Conversely I don't want them to endanger their own lives or any others whilst doing so.
madcop has described the administrative risks they face when going quickly. I'm pointing out that they may feel under pressure to go quickly depending on the situation. Its not choice I envy...
Reasons why the Police can drive at high speed:
1) Excellent training
2) Cars with sirens and blue flashing lights
More importantly there are reasons why they should. In the event of a genuine emergency where *time is of the essence* a skilled police driver may be able to get emergency services personnel to the emergency site swifter and thereby save lives.
The police driver is asked to make a decision - is it worth the additional risk of a high speed drive which might endanger lives in order to create an opportunity to perhaps save additional lives at the emergency site.
The same choice holds true for chasing a loon who is endangering others by driving poorly and at speed.
Where its worth it I WANT our emergency service to GO FAST and GET THERE to save lives. Conversely I don't want them to endanger their own lives or any others whilst doing so.
madcop has described the administrative risks they face when going quickly. I'm pointing out that they may feel under pressure to go quickly depending on the situation. Its not choice I envy...
I don't have a problem with police officers doing their duty and if they are required to do that quickly fair enough.
I do have a problem with them being hounded (pursued for manslaughter etc) after an accident, when they are just doing their job.
In fact the whole system is going a bit wrong when we are utilising huge amounts of resources prosecuting decent members of society for having accidents and giving them harsh sentences that can ruin their lives and end their contribution to society. Whereas we appear to be placing less emphasis prosecution and punishment on those that are very disruptive members of society that go out with the intention to commit thefts and other harmful crimes. I can't believe that we are letting multiple burglars etc go free. Whilst a policeman (or any law abiding person) who has a car ACCIDENT as their only "crime" risks jail.
Also I can't believe people pulling out in front of a faster car to try and slow it down, to be safe you should always give way to someone overtaking.
I think the in “our opinion you were speeding” rule needs to be amended to include evidence from some measuring device to prtect both the police and the public.
I do have a problem with them being hounded (pursued for manslaughter etc) after an accident, when they are just doing their job.
In fact the whole system is going a bit wrong when we are utilising huge amounts of resources prosecuting decent members of society for having accidents and giving them harsh sentences that can ruin their lives and end their contribution to society. Whereas we appear to be placing less emphasis prosecution and punishment on those that are very disruptive members of society that go out with the intention to commit thefts and other harmful crimes. I can't believe that we are letting multiple burglars etc go free. Whilst a policeman (or any law abiding person) who has a car ACCIDENT as their only "crime" risks jail.
Also I can't believe people pulling out in front of a faster car to try and slow it down, to be safe you should always give way to someone overtaking.
I think the in “our opinion you were speeding” rule needs to be amended to include evidence from some measuring device to prtect both the police and the public.
I have no issue with 
driving fast when they NEED to. But, as shown by South Yorks tonight, they enjoy driving at sometimes VERY excessive speed, they do kill 20-30 of us each year, and whatever they claim as internal policy, they police themselves ! (or not).
Since my first 3 points in 25 years/1M miles, I have tried to drive within but up to the limits. (rather than just "appropriately"), I AM A HAZARD, find myself at the front of long streams of traffic, have to constantly monitor the speedo, (thinking of installing a headup display), and am in serious danger of getting tailended by buses and trucks.
The local Pandas and Traffic cars appear to take no notice of limits at all, and who is to check on them ?
:formerlyuprightloyalsubject:
driving fast when they NEED to. But, as shown by South Yorks tonight, they enjoy driving at sometimes VERY excessive speed, they do kill 20-30 of us each year, and whatever they claim as internal policy, they police themselves ! (or not). Since my first 3 points in 25 years/1M miles, I have tried to drive within but up to the limits. (rather than just "appropriately"), I AM A HAZARD, find myself at the front of long streams of traffic, have to constantly monitor the speedo, (thinking of installing a headup display), and am in serious danger of getting tailended by buses and trucks.
The local Pandas and Traffic cars appear to take no notice of limits at all, and who is to check on them ?
:formerlyuprightloyalsubject:
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