Coming to a halt
Discussion
As I understand, when you are coming to a halt, at a stop line for example, you should hold the gear you are in until you stop rather than changing down through every gear. This seems to fit in with the Roadcraft system of speed then gears. However, when coming to a halt from a high gear it is usually necessary to depress the clutch pedal quite a long way from the point at which you stop to avoid stalling the engine. Is this considered as coasting and should it be avoided? If so, that must mean you have to select a lower gear before you have stopped, but wouldn't that mean that you are beginning the gear phase of the system before you have finished the speed phase? What is the solution?
I have encountered this problem not only when stopping but also, for example, when approaching a slow moving queue of traffic. I'll be in fifth and intending to change to second but before I've finished braking the car will be juddering and I'll have to change down.
I have encountered this problem not only when stopping but also, for example, when approaching a slow moving queue of traffic. I'll be in fifth and intending to change to second but before I've finished braking the car will be juddering and I'll have to change down.
Hello Sam,
I expect my technique would be criticised in the situation you describe, as I often slow down early and gently towards a stopping point, so long as this does not upset a following driver. This means that, as you say, one can cover quite a lot of ground in a gear that is too high to be usuable, so we have to declutch. Having done that, I slip into neutral and release the clutch pedal, and that is the bit I think would be frowned upon. My reasoning is that there is no merit in staying in a gear that can not be used, so you might as well be in neutral and keep off the clutch pedal.
One alternative is to use a lower gear for the latter part of your slowing down phase, and maybe some would advocate that. On the other hand if you maintain good observation and can be sure there is going to be no need to be in a responsive gear in order to accelerate out of trouble, I don't see what harm is being done by being in neutral.
The other option of course is to approach the stopping point braking late and hard to a stop, in which case you spend little time and cover only a short distance in the declutched condition.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
I expect my technique would be criticised in the situation you describe, as I often slow down early and gently towards a stopping point, so long as this does not upset a following driver. This means that, as you say, one can cover quite a lot of ground in a gear that is too high to be usuable, so we have to declutch. Having done that, I slip into neutral and release the clutch pedal, and that is the bit I think would be frowned upon. My reasoning is that there is no merit in staying in a gear that can not be used, so you might as well be in neutral and keep off the clutch pedal.
One alternative is to use a lower gear for the latter part of your slowing down phase, and maybe some would advocate that. On the other hand if you maintain good observation and can be sure there is going to be no need to be in a responsive gear in order to accelerate out of trouble, I don't see what harm is being done by being in neutral.
The other option of course is to approach the stopping point braking late and hard to a stop, in which case you spend little time and cover only a short distance in the declutched condition.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Edited by TripleS on Monday 23 October 14:55
I don't mind the flames, so here is my two cents...
Common sense overrides The System, Roadcraft, or whatever the heck else you drive to.
Brake to slow, gears to go. Follow that if you can, but if you can't, do what seems best to you in the situation.
If I'm approaching a red-light stop from 5th gear, I will depress the clutch pedal when the engine speed slows to near stalling. If I have anticipated for this properly, I will have adequate time to select a lower gear and continue to decelerate to stop, or to continue if the lights turn green (the latter occurs around 30% of the time). If I had not anticipated for this properly, or if there is just not enough distance between me and the point at which the car must stop, then I will continue to depress the clutch pedal until I stop.
Roadcraft is a great framework, but it doesn't cover 100% of situations, so use your discretion.
Common sense overrides The System, Roadcraft, or whatever the heck else you drive to.
Brake to slow, gears to go. Follow that if you can, but if you can't, do what seems best to you in the situation.
If I'm approaching a red-light stop from 5th gear, I will depress the clutch pedal when the engine speed slows to near stalling. If I have anticipated for this properly, I will have adequate time to select a lower gear and continue to decelerate to stop, or to continue if the lights turn green (the latter occurs around 30% of the time). If I had not anticipated for this properly, or if there is just not enough distance between me and the point at which the car must stop, then I will continue to depress the clutch pedal until I stop.
Roadcraft is a great framework, but it doesn't cover 100% of situations, so use your discretion.
I'm also interested in the 'correct' way of doing this. Ever since I started driving I have used the throught the gears method, but have been experimenting with different ways of coming to halt. Clearly if you get to the point where you are labouring the engine you need to either dip the cluth, put it in neutral, or change down, but I'm not sure which is considered the best approach and none feel instictivley mechanically sympathetic.
Sam
As the others say, do whats rights but be flexible.
Roadcraft does cover this, in the book and the classroom, as do all the Advanced institutions. You are taught to stay in the approach gear, and it's accepted that this means you will have to de-clutch some time before stopping (Roadcraft specifically mentions this and allows it).
It can definitely be done in nearly every single scenario and vehicle. So yes, assuming that the exception proves the rule, you would stay in the approach gear, then de-clutch, then finish the move to stop.
What you DON'T do is go into neutral and coast along. No excuses, and ignore any advice that it is okay as long as you have good observation. It's not okay, and not acceptable. It's poor driving, and dangerous.
BFF
As the others say, do whats rights but be flexible.
Roadcraft does cover this, in the book and the classroom, as do all the Advanced institutions. You are taught to stay in the approach gear, and it's accepted that this means you will have to de-clutch some time before stopping (Roadcraft specifically mentions this and allows it).
It can definitely be done in nearly every single scenario and vehicle. So yes, assuming that the exception proves the rule, you would stay in the approach gear, then de-clutch, then finish the move to stop.
What you DON'T do is go into neutral and coast along. No excuses, and ignore any advice that it is okay as long as you have good observation. It's not okay, and not acceptable. It's poor driving, and dangerous.
BFF
Big Fat F'er said:
What you DON'T do is go into neutral and coast along. No excuses, and ignore any advice that it is okay as long as you have good observation. It's not okay, and not acceptable. It's poor driving, and dangerous.
BFF
BFF
Why's that, then? What's wrong with slowing into a hazard requiring a stop on brakes and clutch?
Not sure if you've picked up the point there. You must always have the engine in a gear and your foot off the clutch in order to be able to drive the car out of trouble, hence you should never coast in neutral.
1.) If I can see a queue at the traffic lights ahead, it's likely to mean that they're due to change soon. I brake early, drop down to second and approach the queue slowly. If the lights change, the chances are I can just pick up and go and it's very smooth. I wouldn't do this on a motorway queue on a dark and wet night though....
2.) If the queue is that static, approach in the gear you were already in, dipping the clutch as the engine starts to struggle. In most cars, even in 5th this will be about 10mph leaving you with a period of about 20 yards to dip the clutch, select first and coast the last few yards. I was told this was acceptable when I did my IAM test 10 odd years ago. As the car comes to a stop, ease off the brakes and then re-apply them, eliminating the granny lurch, put the handbrake on, select neutral and release the clutch and take your foot off the brake (eliminating brake light dazzle, taking the pressure off the clutch release bearing but leaving the car safe-ish from a rear end shunt)
1.) If I can see a queue at the traffic lights ahead, it's likely to mean that they're due to change soon. I brake early, drop down to second and approach the queue slowly. If the lights change, the chances are I can just pick up and go and it's very smooth. I wouldn't do this on a motorway queue on a dark and wet night though....
2.) If the queue is that static, approach in the gear you were already in, dipping the clutch as the engine starts to struggle. In most cars, even in 5th this will be about 10mph leaving you with a period of about 20 yards to dip the clutch, select first and coast the last few yards. I was told this was acceptable when I did my IAM test 10 odd years ago. As the car comes to a stop, ease off the brakes and then re-apply them, eliminating the granny lurch, put the handbrake on, select neutral and release the clutch and take your foot off the brake (eliminating brake light dazzle, taking the pressure off the clutch release bearing but leaving the car safe-ish from a rear end shunt)
wadgebeast said:
Not sure if you've picked up the point there. You must always have the engine in a gear and your foot off the clutch in order to be able to drive the car out of trouble, hence you should never coast in neutral.
I don't buy it. I know we've all been told all our lives not to coast, but why not?
Doesn't advanced driving mean doing the thinking yourself, not having it done for you?
If you are coming to a stop, then why fiddle around changing gear and doing other distracting and destabilising things when you could spending your attention on observation and planning?
If you are in fifth approaching a red light with a queue of three stationary HGVs (e.g. so you know that you are not moving off), then why not declutch as the engine is about to labour and hold on the brake to a stop. If the situation changes then you can take a gear (whichever is most appropriate).
Big Fat F'er said:
What you DON'T do is go into neutral and coast along. No excuses, and ignore any advice that it is okay as long as you have good observation. It's not okay, and not acceptable. It's poor driving, and dangerous.
BFF
BFF
Hello Brian, back with your inimitable style I see; I trust you're well.
I note your reaction, but I would suggest that:
Retaining a high gear in engagement at lowish speed and with the clutch disengaged is doing you no good at all. For all the protection that offers you might as well be in neutral and foot off the clutch pedal for mechanical sympathy reasons, and IMHO this is not detrimental to any safety considerations.
If you maintain awareness of what is going on around you, and you are alert to the emergence of any situation that means you may need to accelerate suddenly, then by all means take the precaution of selecting and engaging a suitably low gear, and re-engaging the clutch. Only then do you have the option of promptly accelerating out of trouble if that's what you're bothered about.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
There are not that many situations where the coast at the end with the cutch depressed is too long, but they do exist. By coasting I mean under braking with the clutch disengaged.
In my TVR you can't do less than about 35 in 5th or 20 in 4th without the engine labouring. So coming off down a slip in 5th to a junction is not a goer. So you have to coast to far or grab an intermediate gear. In those circs I often grab a lower gear before braking. It means you are not overlapping. It works well in the Tiv as it is so highly geared.
If I need to grab a lower gear later, then I will probably heal and toe to get there. It means overlapping, but it's done when the braking force is decreasing.
What you DON'T do is go into neutral and coast along. No excuses, and ignore any advice that it is okay as long as you have good observation. It's not okay, and not acceptable. It's poor driving, and dangerous.
BFF
I have no idea why if you are in the high gear, and are coming to a halt on the brakes, when you de-clutch what is so bad about going into neutral? I cant think of a circumstance when being in the high gear de-clutched is of any use.
Or are you referring to coasting not on the brakes in neutral BFF? In which case in gear with the clutch depressed or in neutral are both as bad.
Graham
In my TVR you can't do less than about 35 in 5th or 20 in 4th without the engine labouring. So coming off down a slip in 5th to a junction is not a goer. So you have to coast to far or grab an intermediate gear. In those circs I often grab a lower gear before braking. It means you are not overlapping. It works well in the Tiv as it is so highly geared.
If I need to grab a lower gear later, then I will probably heal and toe to get there. It means overlapping, but it's done when the braking force is decreasing.
Big Fat F'er said:
What you DON'T do is go into neutral and coast along. No excuses, and ignore any advice that it is okay as long as you have good observation. It's not okay, and not acceptable. It's poor driving, and dangerous.
BFF
I have no idea why if you are in the high gear, and are coming to a halt on the brakes, when you de-clutch what is so bad about going into neutral? I cant think of a circumstance when being in the high gear de-clutched is of any use.
Or are you referring to coasting not on the brakes in neutral BFF? In which case in gear with the clutch depressed or in neutral are both as bad.
Graham
wadgebeast said:
Not sure if you've picked up the point there. You must always have the engine in a gear and your foot off the clutch in order to be able to drive the car out of trouble, hence you should never coast in neutral.
1.) If I can see a queue at the traffic lights ahead, it's likely to mean that they're due to change soon. I brake early, drop down to second and approach the queue slowly. If the lights change, the chances are I can just pick up and go and it's very smooth. I wouldn't do this on a motorway queue on a dark and wet night though....
2.) If the queue is that static, approach in the gear you were already in, dipping the clutch as the engine starts to struggle. In most cars, even in 5th this will be about 10mph leaving you with a period of about 20 yards to dip the clutch, select first and coast the last few yards. I was told this was acceptable when I did my IAM test 10 odd years ago. As the car comes to a stop, ease off the brakes and then re-apply them, eliminating the granny lurch, put the handbrake on, select neutral and release the clutch and take your foot off the brake (eliminating brake light dazzle, taking the pressure off the clutch release bearing but leaving the car safe-ish from a rear end shunt)
1.) If I can see a queue at the traffic lights ahead, it's likely to mean that they're due to change soon. I brake early, drop down to second and approach the queue slowly. If the lights change, the chances are I can just pick up and go and it's very smooth. I wouldn't do this on a motorway queue on a dark and wet night though....
2.) If the queue is that static, approach in the gear you were already in, dipping the clutch as the engine starts to struggle. In most cars, even in 5th this will be about 10mph leaving you with a period of about 20 yards to dip the clutch, select first and coast the last few yards. I was told this was acceptable when I did my IAM test 10 odd years ago. As the car comes to a stop, ease off the brakes and then re-apply them, eliminating the granny lurch, put the handbrake on, select neutral and release the clutch and take your foot off the brake (eliminating brake light dazzle, taking the pressure off the clutch release bearing but leaving the car safe-ish from a rear end shunt)
Beg pardon but I very much doubt if you'll get many modern cars down to 10 mph in 5th gear before you need to declutch, and you certainly won't with a modern high geared diesel car.
In the situation Sam outlined I think the techniques used could vary according to whether you are:
a) Trying to meet the requirements of a driving test,
b) Wishing to conform to what the textbooks say, or
c) Electing to drive using a bit of independent thought and practical common sense.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Big Fat F'er said:
What you DON'T do is go into neutral and coast along. No excuses, and ignore any advice that it is okay as long as you have good observation. It's not okay, and not acceptable. It's poor driving, and dangerous.
BFF
In situations where you *might* need to pull away before coming to a complete halt, being ready and prepared to do so is sensible. But there are situations where it is clear that you will be coming to a dead stop and there is no conceivable need to accelerate. In those situations, what is the danger from being out of gear? It is very similar to not covering the brake when you are certain that there will be no need to brake. I would say a more general guideline is that you should be prepared to respond to any reasonably forseeable events. That doesn't mean you should be poised at all times to do an emergency stop with the car in the right gear and revs and the clutch at biting point to apply emergency acceleration and ready to do a violent swerve. Any of those might be appropriate under the right circumstances and under those circumstances you should be prepared to do them, but that doesn't mean you should be poised to do all of them all of the time.
GreenV8S said:
Big Fat F'er said:
What you DON'T do is go into neutral and coast along. No excuses, and ignore any advice that it is okay as long as you have good observation. It's not okay, and not acceptable. It's poor driving, and dangerous.
BFF
In situations where you *might* need to pull away before coming to a complete halt, being ready and prepared to do so is sensible. But there are situations where it is clear that you will be coming to a dead stop and there is no conceivable need to accelerate. In those situations, what is the danger from being out of gear? It is very similar to not covering the brake when you are certain that there will be no need to brake. I would say a more general guideline is that you should be prepared to respond to any reasonably forseeable events. That doesn't mean you should be poised at all times to do an emergency stop with the car in the right gear and revs and the clutch at biting point to apply emergency acceleration and ready to do a violent swerve. Any of those might be appropriate under the right circumstances and under those circumstances you should be prepared to do them, but that doesn't mean you should be poised to do all of them all of the time.
Peter - your trouble is that you have this tendency to think calmly and rationally about things, and if you persist with that you'll keep coming up with these sensible propositions. It really won't do; you're going to have to mend your ways.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
7db said:
If you are in fifth approaching a red light with a queue of three stationary HGVs (e.g. so you know that you are not moving off), then why not declutch as the engine is about to labour and hold on the brake to a stop. If the situation changes then you can take a gear (whichever is most appropriate).
You should do that. Declutch as you are coming to a stop, then either rolling first or stop, as required. That isn't what Triple is saying. He is talking about declutching before you get to that point, then foot off the clutch with neutral, and coasting along. That's what's wrong and dangerous.
gridgway said:
There are not that many situations where the coast at the end with the cutch depressed is too long, but they do exist.
Very true, hence my comment about the exception proving the rule.
gridgway said:
In my TVR you can't do less than about 35 in 5th or 20 in 4th without the engine labouring. So coming off down a slip in 5th to a junction is not a goer. So you have to coast to far or grab an intermediate gear. In those circs I often grab a lower gear before braking. It means you are not overlapping. It works well in the Tiv as it is so highly geared. If I need to grab a lower gear later, then I will probably heal and toe to get there. It means overlapping, but it's done when the braking force is decreasing.
None of which is coasting along in neutral, so thats not the issue. For example, in a situation where you would stall without taking an intermediate gear, then you would take one. Thats a planned deviation from the advice not to take intermediate gears What you would not do is coast along in neutral. Because that is driving dangerously without having full control of the vehicle.
gridgway said:
Big Fat F'er said:
What you DON'T do is go into neutral and coast along. No excuses, and ignore any advice that it is okay as long as you have good observation. It's not okay, and not acceptable. It's poor driving, and dangerous.
BFF
I have no idea why if you are in the high gear, and are coming to a halt on the brakes, when you de-clutch what is so bad about going into neutral? I cant think of a circumstance when being in the high gear de-clutched is of any use.
When you are coming to a halt, the recommended practice is to stop, handbrake then neutral. But again, that isn't what the problem is. It's not when you are coming to a halt that is the problem. Triple is recommending coasting along without positive drive. Accidents have happened that way, even with those who claim that they are okay 'cos they have good observation.
Edited by Big Fat F'er on Monday 23 October 16:38
Edited by Big Fat F'er on Monday 23 October 16:50
TripleS said:
In the situation Sam outlined I think the techniques used could vary according to whether you are:
a) Trying to meet the requirements of a driving test,
b) Wishing to conform to what the textbooks say, or
c) Electing to drive using a bit of independent thought and practical common sense.
Dave.
a) Trying to meet the requirements of a driving test,
b) Wishing to conform to what the textbooks say, or
c) Electing to drive using a bit of independent thought and practical common sense.
Dave.
Not everyone thinks that the above are mutually exclusive. Also, if your independent thought and practical common sense means you drive dangerously, then you need to think again. Stop coasting along in neutral, it's not acceptable under a), b), c) or all three.
GreenV8S said:
Big Fat F'er said:
What you DON'T do is go into neutral and coast along. No excuses, and ignore any advice that it is okay as long as you have good observation. It's not okay, and not acceptable. It's poor driving, and dangerous.
BFF
In situations where you *might* need to pull away before coming to a complete halt, being ready and prepared to do so is sensible. But there are situations where it is clear that you will be coming to a dead stop and there is no conceivable need to accelerate. In those situations, what is the danger from being out of gear? It is very similar to not covering the brake when you are certain that there will be no need to brake. I would say a more general guideline is that you should be prepared to respond to any reasonably forseeable events. That doesn't mean you should be poised at all times to do an emergency stop with the car in the right gear and revs and the clutch at biting point to apply emergency acceleration and ready to do a violent swerve. Any of those might be appropriate under the right circumstances and under those circumstances you should be prepared to do them, but that doesn't mean you should be poised to do all of them all of the time.
Absolutely to the above, thats what 'thinking driving' is all about. Unfortunately it is not what TripleS is all about. He is suggesting to Sam that he could coast along by coming into neutral, clutch up, foot off, and travel along the road, well before stopping. That means he is not able to respond to events, unforseen or otherwise. Thats dangerous.
Don't do it Sam.
Big Fat F'er said:
By coasting I mean under braking with the clutch disengaged.
...
What you would not do is coast along in neutral. Because that is driving dangerously
...
What you would not do is coast along in neutral. Because that is driving dangerously
I'm not clear whether you're objecting to being in neutral, or having the clutch disengaged, or both, while braking. I don't see why any of these are inherently dangerous. Why do you say they are?
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