"Race engines"?
Discussion
A racing engine is something that could run in a racing series and actually be competitive.
In specific power terms that means for a 2 valve engine that means 90 to 110 bhp/litre, 4 valve is 110 to 160 bhp/litre depending on the age of the car etc. For turbo cars the expectations would be a lot higher, for example I would expect a Cossie with 'race' engine to make 450 to 550 bhp.
Anything less is 'rally' or 'fast road' which could be still blindingly fast, it's just that the description doesn't meet what's delivered.
In specific power terms that means for a 2 valve engine that means 90 to 110 bhp/litre, 4 valve is 110 to 160 bhp/litre depending on the age of the car etc. For turbo cars the expectations would be a lot higher, for example I would expect a Cossie with 'race' engine to make 450 to 550 bhp.
Anything less is 'rally' or 'fast road' which could be still blindingly fast, it's just that the description doesn't meet what's delivered.
Hmmm, I think it's more to do with 'built for purpose' rather than 'whack up the boost on stock internals and hope the thing holds together'... Not so much to do with power (which in race series would greatly depend on application and regulations anyways, not sure there's too many 550 bhp 2 litre turbos competing in the Nürburgring 24hrs, as this kind of spec would have huge driveability implications, i.e. they probably wouldn't see where a small-turboed 300 bhp car went), but with balancing & lightening of reciprocating masses, piston/ bore and crank bearing clearances designed for low friction and reliability over a very wide heat range rather than the lowest possible oil consumption over 200,000 miles of operation in 'normal' traffic conditions, et cetera.
900T-R said:
Hmmm, I think it's more to do with 'built for purpose' rather than 'whack up the boost on stock internals and hope the thing holds together'... Not so much to do with power (which in race series would greatly depend on application and regulations anyways, not sure there's too many 550 bhp 2 litre turbos competing in the Nürburgring 24hrs, as this kind of spec would have huge driveability implications, i.e. they probably wouldn't see where a small-turboed 300 bhp car went), but with balancing & lightening of reciprocating masses, piston/ bore and crank bearing clearances designed for low friction and reliability over a very wide heat range rather than the lowest possible oil consumption over 200,000 miles of operation in 'normal' traffic conditions, et cetera.
Agree completely.
Getting an engine to "race spec" requires a LOT of cash and hard work balancing, flowing, etc, etc, etc. Especially on a blown engine it's not just a case of sticking a bigger blower & intercooler on, or upping the pressure as the engine would look like it's was running with chocolate pistons pretty quick.
The out come of doing all this work is that the engine can get through the revs more easily, whilst wasting less engery working against itself. This allows the engine to rev a lot higher without the torque dropping, producing more power (power = torque@rpm * rpm) and without ripping itself to pieces (so quick) in the process.
I also think it extends beyond the engine block: intake, exhaust, throttle bodies, fuel mapping, etc, etc, etc needs to all be tuned and tweaked every time you change anything. So getting a race spec engine from a road going car engine is a lot of extra hard work than getting an engine that's been made to race from the off.
Yeah, but most kids with shopping trollies that say stuff like 'my car has a race spec engine' don't race and their cars are very much on the roads. They mean their engine has had a bit of work done above the standard car.
I agree that to havea proper race spec engine really doen't mean much, as I could have a bog-standard 998cc A-Series engine in a Sporting Trials car and there's my race engine. But I wouldn't say I it was a race spec engine as that just wouldn't seem right.
I agree that to havea proper race spec engine really doen't mean much, as I could have a bog-standard 998cc A-Series engine in a Sporting Trials car and there's my race engine. But I wouldn't say I it was a race spec engine as that just wouldn't seem right.
MTv Dave said:
Yeah, but most kids with shopping trollies that say stuff like 'my car has a race spec engine' don't race and their cars are very much on the roads. They mean their engine has had a bit of work done above the standard car.
I agree that to have a race spec engine really doen't mean much, as I could have a bog-standard 998cc A-Series engine in a Sporting Trials car and there's my race engine. But I wouldn't say I it was a race spec engine as that just wouldn't seem right.
I agree that to have a race spec engine really doen't mean much, as I could have a bog-standard 998cc A-Series engine in a Sporting Trials car and there's my race engine. But I wouldn't say I it was a race spec engine as that just wouldn't seem right.
I'd agree with you there. Worked on quite a few race cars and its a tricky question. IMO a race engine is one that has been designed and built for one purpose, Lemans, BTTC, F1 etc, even then there are different specs for qualifying and the race etc. Spending money on a road car engine is not necessarily making it a race ready item.
That sounds like a good, simple definition to me. GavinPearson said:
A racing engine is something that could run in a racing series and actually be competitive.
In specific power terms that means for a 2 valve engine that means 90 to 110 bhp/litre, 4 valve is 110 to 160 bhp/litre depending on the age of the car etc. For turbo cars the expectations would be a lot higher, for example I would expect a Cossie with 'race' engine to make 450 to 550 bhp.
Anything less is 'rally' or 'fast road' which could be still blindingly fast, it's just that the description doesn't meet what's delivered.
In specific power terms that means for a 2 valve engine that means 90 to 110 bhp/litre, 4 valve is 110 to 160 bhp/litre depending on the age of the car etc. For turbo cars the expectations would be a lot higher, for example I would expect a Cossie with 'race' engine to make 450 to 550 bhp.
Anything less is 'rally' or 'fast road' which could be still blindingly fast, it's just that the description doesn't meet what's delivered.
I think that this sums it up pretty well, I would say that it is about specific power per litre, my 205 would do exceptionally well to get 100bhp/litre so 190bhp 8v would definately be a race engine.
mtv dave said:
I also think it extends beyond the engine block: intake, exhaust, throttle bodies, fuel mapping, etc, etc, etc needs to all be tuned and tweaked every time you change anything. So getting a race spec engine from a road going car engine is a lot of extra hard work than getting an engine that's been made to race from the off.
I don't think that the components used or the method of tuning is that relevant as if you could get competitve power out of stock internals why bother changing them?
You could have an engine with a lower specific power output made with the finest components and race spec parts, but if it isn't making a high power in relation to its competitors then it can't be that good an engine and wouldn't be classed as a race engine imo.
Edited by bales on Thursday 26th October 16:31
so my engine is 2.3l and cranks out 500hp
so its race ?
but on stock internals (ok but lightened and balanced)
so its "street"
but its done 260,000 miles
so its "knackered" ?
Does it matter ?
I know its bl00dy fast....
too me a "race engine " is balanced and blue printed/ high lift cam /forged rods/ forged pistons/ fully ported
n/a producing 120 bhp/ltr
turbo 300 hp/litre
and you rebuild them every other race
so its race ?
but on stock internals (ok but lightened and balanced)
so its "street"
but its done 260,000 miles
so its "knackered" ?
Does it matter ?
I know its bl00dy fast....
too me a "race engine " is balanced and blue printed/ high lift cam /forged rods/ forged pistons/ fully ported
n/a producing 120 bhp/ltr
turbo 300 hp/litre
and you rebuild them every other race
Anything built for racing.
I have a 1600 218BHP 9500RPM Corolla engine (will be 230BHP when I dry sump it, yippee). That is definately a race engine.
If you run in a 'standard' engined series and have just slapped a £250 engine from a breakers then that ain't a race engine (if it wins races then you aren't in a very competitive series).
If you take that standard engine and exploit every possible rule/loophole to get that last fraction of BHP out it (at great expense) then it is definitely a race engine. The fact your £250 engine has cost you over £5-10k and only makes a couple of extra BHP is the cost of winning.
Some spotty oik that has slapped a filter, exhaust and superchip in their Corsa, and then negated it with half a ton of blue LED's, non functional (at best!) spoilers, stereos and furry dice just doesn't cut it!
I have a 1600 218BHP 9500RPM Corolla engine (will be 230BHP when I dry sump it, yippee). That is definately a race engine.
If you run in a 'standard' engined series and have just slapped a £250 engine from a breakers then that ain't a race engine (if it wins races then you aren't in a very competitive series).
If you take that standard engine and exploit every possible rule/loophole to get that last fraction of BHP out it (at great expense) then it is definitely a race engine. The fact your £250 engine has cost you over £5-10k and only makes a couple of extra BHP is the cost of winning.
Some spotty oik that has slapped a filter, exhaust and superchip in their Corsa, and then negated it with half a ton of blue LED's, non functional (at best!) spoilers, stereos and furry dice just doesn't cut it!
vrooom said:
Race engine is hard to drive engines, Nothing below 3,000 - 4,000k rpm. and loads of power up the rpm. designed to last 1 race season......
Some of the engines I've worked on struggled to complete practice before "retiring".. wont name names but had engines that wouldnt run although had been on dyno, blew water out on start-up and wouldnt last nore than 1 hour...
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