what would interest the police
Discussion
Out with one of my staff today in South Wales and when turning into a road near splott was confronted by a hoodie pointing a gun at the car. So he gets on the phone to report the matter to the police, the respones was less than perfect infact it was more keystone.
Whilst he was on the phone to the control centre, an X5 police car turns up, I wave the copper waves back and drives off! Then the helicopter takes off from its base which is local and circles around, my colleague is directing the helicopter via the girl on the phone, it circles around, but not over the kids ( there are now three all with guns)then flies off.
He heard the girl on the phone trying to find the armed response unit but it was in Bridgend! His phone battery is now running out so we give the number of the customer we are at so they could contact us.
39 minutes later two young coppers turn up, not armed, and ask where the kids with the guns are. We directed them to the kids who have been shooting at lorry sides and genrally being stupid and they were last seen heading in the direction of the park.
Now I know these were probably BB guns but, what if they weren't? Was the response appropriate? Theses kids could have hurt someone and nearly caused a car accident as my colleague was somewhat surprised to see a gun pointing at hm, imagine if that had been a person who panicked I certainly felt there was more effort on getting my colleagues identity than dispatching someone to have a look at the problem. Maybe this sort of thing is normal in Splott, certainly the locals have had windows shot out etc but I was less than impressed in the speed of response and that two apparently unarmed officers were sent to look at someone who could have had a real gun.
Whilst he was on the phone to the control centre, an X5 police car turns up, I wave the copper waves back and drives off! Then the helicopter takes off from its base which is local and circles around, my colleague is directing the helicopter via the girl on the phone, it circles around, but not over the kids ( there are now three all with guns)then flies off.
He heard the girl on the phone trying to find the armed response unit but it was in Bridgend! His phone battery is now running out so we give the number of the customer we are at so they could contact us.
39 minutes later two young coppers turn up, not armed, and ask where the kids with the guns are. We directed them to the kids who have been shooting at lorry sides and genrally being stupid and they were last seen heading in the direction of the park.
Now I know these were probably BB guns but, what if they weren't? Was the response appropriate? Theses kids could have hurt someone and nearly caused a car accident as my colleague was somewhat surprised to see a gun pointing at hm, imagine if that had been a person who panicked I certainly felt there was more effort on getting my colleagues identity than dispatching someone to have a look at the problem. Maybe this sort of thing is normal in Splott, certainly the locals have had windows shot out etc but I was less than impressed in the speed of response and that two apparently unarmed officers were sent to look at someone who could have had a real gun.
razerwire said:
This is a tough one IMO.
If the police replied heavy-handed with several armed units, you're guaranteed the yobs would be hearalded as children playing with toys, and the police as heavy-handed oafs.
If the police replied heavy-handed with several armed units, you're guaranteed the yobs would be hearalded as children playing with toys, and the police as heavy-handed oafs.
Yes I agree here. Its never a straight forward case of call out the SWAT. If plod had to crash out the 7th cavalry for every call reporting a gun then you might as well give us all guns.
We bib's don't want that and can I dare speak for the public? I don't think they want that either. I am proud that I am not carrying a gun and can do my job in the main.
Ok possibly the response time to an incident of this nature could have been quicker no argument there. Were plain clothes told to take a drive by to see what the position was? I don't think they would tell you that anyway if it did happen.
The fact the ARV was so far away is not unusual. In my area there are only a certain (I'm not going to tell you how many) numbers of ARV crews available and authorised to carry firearms.
I'm not going to go into operational policy either for officer safety reasons but I do back up the point that if the ARV's turned up at every incident screaming armed police then people would be on this forum and in the press saying 'Heavy handed police threaten to shoot children' You know that will happen be honest.
Its bad enough for the troops when somebody is told by them to drop what they have been told is a shotgun and the guy then points it at them. (I make no reference to any specific case)
In my area the ARV's were called to a man running about with what the public said was a shotgun wrapped in a raincoat. The ARV's saw him chased him and he turned knelt down and adopted a firing position. (This was on CCTV for all to see) He was shot once and survived.
It was established he was high and larking about with a golf umburella!
In the news....."Police shoot unarmed man"
Need I say anymore? As a footnote the guy later pled guilty to firearms offences.
Tells a story.
Its not all black and white!
I obviously lead a sheltered life! For what it is worth these were not small kids guessing 16-17 and the one who pointed at the car was a bigish one. I appreciate that there is a differance and perhaps the area is so bad that that is the norm however it looked bad to me.
As an aside my personal view is that the police are in a no win situation, if they did have an ARV sent and they were kids who got shot, then the do gooders would miss the point and blame the cops. If on the other hand it was a real hand gun or someone died as a result of a shooting or a road accident, then again it would be the cops fault in the do gooders eyes. I expected a response other than what I saw but perhaps it was correct, it certainly didn't feel that way, anyway no one got hurt this time.
As an aside my personal view is that the police are in a no win situation, if they did have an ARV sent and they were kids who got shot, then the do gooders would miss the point and blame the cops. If on the other hand it was a real hand gun or someone died as a result of a shooting or a road accident, then again it would be the cops fault in the do gooders eyes. I expected a response other than what I saw but perhaps it was correct, it certainly didn't feel that way, anyway no one got hurt this time.
The Hitman said:
It's certainly not surprising since it's Splott! 
Your colleague obviously doesn't frequent the area because, I suspect, its an all too common occurance. Splott very near Cardiff I think, and its no where near the best area to visit
Your colleague obviously doesn't frequent the area because, I suspect, its an all too common occurance. Splott very near Cardiff I think, and its no where near the best area to visit
To be honest with you, there are areas of Cardiff, which includes Splott, that the police tend to shy away from patrolling.
Ely got so bad in Cardiff that to all intents and purposes it got left to its own devices, to the extent that they had riots some years ago, and now the area is incredibly 'off limits' to all and sundry.
Its not unknown for the fire service to be called out to a 'fire' in Ely, and then be rained down upon by bricks.
It's not the polices fault - rather the fact that they are hidiously understaffed and resourced, and like you and me, have their own lives to think about occasionally - and piling into an area and situation where it is not unknown for the yobs to try and nick the police car - you can understand their hesitation at times.
spaximus said:
I obviously lead a sheltered life! For what it is worth these were not small kids guessing 16-17 and the one who pointed at the car was a bigish one. I appreciate that there is a differance and perhaps the area is so bad that that is the norm however it looked bad to me.
As an aside my personal view is that the police are in a no win situation, if they did have an ARV sent and they were kids who got shot, then the do gooders would miss the point and blame the cops. If on the other hand it was a real hand gun or someone died as a result of a shooting or a road accident, then again it would be the cops fault in the do gooders eyes. I expected a response other than what I saw but perhaps it was correct, it certainly didn't feel that way, anyway no one got hurt this time.
As an aside my personal view is that the police are in a no win situation, if they did have an ARV sent and they were kids who got shot, then the do gooders would miss the point and blame the cops. If on the other hand it was a real hand gun or someone died as a result of a shooting or a road accident, then again it would be the cops fault in the do gooders eyes. I expected a response other than what I saw but perhaps it was correct, it certainly didn't feel that way, anyway no one got hurt this time.
I agree fully with what you are saying. You saw it I didn't. You were left with the feeling that the police could have/ should have reacted in a different way. Credit to you that you can also see the problems of policing by public consent.
The U.S. response would have been two cops pull up in a car. Scream freeze weapons drawn get the people to lie down if they have not already shot them because kids usually freak and run away (ok thats a bit flippant but you get the idea)
Probably what you would have wanted to see but (as you have pointed out) if the bib's in the UK carried on like that the press and Mop's of the parish would be up in arms. Thats what policing by public consent is all about and is also the reason why our police (in the main) have the reputation of being friendly, approachable, tell you the time, directions, help when you get lost, help when people you know get lost, chap an old dears door at 1am because the family can't be bothered to do it anymore, go to community meetings and listen to what the Mop's are saying, use the power of discretion when appropriate (we all do something wrong sometimes), smile, laugh, play football in the street with the kids, let kids see the flashing light on the car, wave at people, talk to local folk, help drunk folk up the road to their wives (then run away), You get the idea.
When you are on holiday abroad look at their bib's. Guns, sunglasses, military looking, no public interaction. Not all I agree but we still enjoy the fact that we are trusted by the MoP's we serve (in the main) to do a good honest job.
Comments from people like you who critisise constructivly but are awre of problems the officers are faced with should be warmly welcomed and listened to by bib bosses. That way next time it will be better dealt with and your faith in the plods will be restored.
Lecture over. Cheers.
gently bentley said:
spaximus said:
I obviously lead a sheltered life! For what it is worth these were not small kids guessing 16-17 and the one who pointed at the car was a bigish one. I appreciate that there is a differance and perhaps the area is so bad that that is the norm however it looked bad to me.
As an aside my personal view is that the police are in a no win situation, if they did have an ARV sent and they were kids who got shot, then the do gooders would miss the point and blame the cops. If on the other hand it was a real hand gun or someone died as a result of a shooting or a road accident, then again it would be the cops fault in the do gooders eyes. I expected a response other than what I saw but perhaps it was correct, it certainly didn't feel that way, anyway no one got hurt this time.
As an aside my personal view is that the police are in a no win situation, if they did have an ARV sent and they were kids who got shot, then the do gooders would miss the point and blame the cops. If on the other hand it was a real hand gun or someone died as a result of a shooting or a road accident, then again it would be the cops fault in the do gooders eyes. I expected a response other than what I saw but perhaps it was correct, it certainly didn't feel that way, anyway no one got hurt this time.
I agree fully with what you are saying. You saw it I didn't. You were left with the feeling that the police could have/ should have reacted in a different way. Credit to you that you can also see the problems of policing by public consent.
The U.S. response would have been two cops pull up in a car. Scream freeze weapons drawn get the people to lie down if they have not already shot them because kids usually freak and run away (ok thats a bit flippant but you get the idea)
Probably what you would have wanted to see but (as you have pointed out) if the bib's in the UK carried on like that the press and Mop's of the parish would be up in arms. Thats what policing by public consent is all about and is also the reason why our police (in the main) have the reputation of being friendly, approachable, tell you the time, directions, help when you get lost, help when people you know get lost, chap an old dears door at 1am because the family can't be bothered to do it anymore, go to community meetings and listen to what the Mop's are saying, use the power of discretion when appropriate (we all do something wrong sometimes), smile, laugh, play football in the street with the kids, let kids see the flashing light on the car, wave at people, talk to local folk, help drunk folk up the road to their wives (then run away), You get the idea.
When you are on holiday abroad look at their bib's. Guns, sunglasses, military looking, no public interaction. Not all I agree but we still enjoy the fact that we are trusted by the MoP's we serve (in the main) to do a good honest job.
Comments from people like you who critisise constructivly but are awre of problems the officers are faced with should be warmly welcomed and listened to by bib bosses. That way next time it will be better dealt with and your faith in the plods will be restored.
Lecture over. Cheers.
I agree with a deal of what you say Gently, but you and I are in Bonnie Scotland and I think that we are to a large extent isolated to some of the stuff that goes on in England: I mean in some of the inner cities now they have no go areas for single officers because they are so hostile and dangerous, (o' course they're all bloody sassenachs!)
Having said that, my personal experience of this happened about six years ago when traversing a roundabout on top of a hill in Paisley at around 2-30 in the afternoon in my beloved '81 Quattro, which was left hand drive.
As I came out of the roundabout to straighten up for the main road there was a colossal explosion behind my head and I was showered in glass from behind: it caught me so unawares that I swerved and mounted the kerb before pulling the car back onto the road just before hitting a bus shelter full off people!
I wrenched the handbrake on and leapt out of the car to find that most of the people in the shelter had ducked down in response to the bang, (and possibly the fact that I had almost run them over!) On top of a grassy mound on the edge of the roundabout was a youth with a rifle who turned to run as I spotted him.
I'm pretty fit and chased him behind bushes onto a field, but just as I was gaining I slipped on the grass due to the fact that I was dressed in a business suit and slippy shoes and the scumbag got away: I have to say it's probably just as well as I was so high on adrenalin and mad as hell with shock I would have killed him.
Got back to the car to be told that a woman had seen him do this before, just sit there and shoot at cars!!!
My nearside rear quarter was shot out and the glass was everywhere, including down the back of my shirt. I drove straight to the police station, showed them the vehicle, gave them a report and asked what they were going to do about it.
They said they would "see if a car was in the area" and investigate.
I said I would put in a separate complaint to the traffic police who I know as I did not think they fully grasped the implications of shooting at oncoming traffic.
They told me the traffic police would not be interested as he was not driving a vehicle!!
I was frankly disgusted by the cavalier, offhand manner I experienced whilst making this complaint and told them so.
The repair cost me almost three hundred pounds and when cleaning the glass out we found the lead pellet from the rifle and handed it into the police.
FIVE WEEKS later a female officer from CID 'phoned me to "take a statement about the incident".
She was under the impression it had happened the day before, had no knowledge of a gun being involved, and did noot know where the pellet had gone, despite the fact that it would have been crucial material evidence in a criminal prosecution had they caught the miscreant. There was of course no chance of that as they hadn't even started looking for him!
Think on this: I am a highly experienced advanced driver. Imagine if I had been Mrs. Yuppie in her new Range Rover that she cannot control because her last car was a Micra and she has just picked up her kids from school and is going through the same roundabout when the pellet comes through the front screen, taking out her eye and she hits the bus stop with seven people in it.
What are we going to do with our failing society?
Oh yes absoloutly no argument with me there. I am well aware this sort of carry on occurs and it is bad enough when it happens to one of our own never mind a Mop which I believe is worse.
I knowing what I do now in the job would have taken the SDO to task as to the response you were given. He is the man/woman responsible for policing that area. The buck stops there. If that person is not directing the troops properly then he/she should get it big time. once that starts happening just you watch stupid bib's bucking up their ideas when the threat of the PSU is hanging over their muppet heads. Yeas Bib's make bad calls sometimes but this is a case of neglect of duty. swing that axe on these idiots. I don't want to work with them and I sure as hell don't want them protecting me, my family, friends or Mop's when I am off duty.
We could all tell stories like this. Example. One night an argument breaks out in the street. Handbag at 50 paces kind of stuff. One lad get a bottle smashed into his face and stabbed 13 times with the broken glass in the face. (It was on CCTV recorded live) Bib's get called and find IP lying at locus bleeding like hell. IP is very drunk and aggresive and still wants to fight the world. Bib's ask him does he want to make a complaint. Ok English/Welsh boys might get lost here but in Scotland he does not get that option. (The Procurator Fiscal is now deciding who gets charged and he prosecutes on behalf of the people of Scotland not based on the individual. Us cops are just proffessional witnesses and agents of the crown)(More on the PF if required) IP says Feck off plod. He is taken to hospital and admitted. No further action by plod.
WRONG
I am duty DC the next day and get it for enquiry. CCTV obtained. Bags of evidence for serious assault to endangerment of life and permanent disfigurement (Scottish charge) All bystanders identified and give statements. IP re-interviewed when he got out of hospital. Explains that he remembers little of the assault. Doctor confirms he was suffering from post traumatic shock and fight or flight syndrome hence his aggresive non-compliant attitude. Bad guy locked up 5 years.......Its not difficult people. It proves the point though
Regards GB
I knowing what I do now in the job would have taken the SDO to task as to the response you were given. He is the man/woman responsible for policing that area. The buck stops there. If that person is not directing the troops properly then he/she should get it big time. once that starts happening just you watch stupid bib's bucking up their ideas when the threat of the PSU is hanging over their muppet heads. Yeas Bib's make bad calls sometimes but this is a case of neglect of duty. swing that axe on these idiots. I don't want to work with them and I sure as hell don't want them protecting me, my family, friends or Mop's when I am off duty.
We could all tell stories like this. Example. One night an argument breaks out in the street. Handbag at 50 paces kind of stuff. One lad get a bottle smashed into his face and stabbed 13 times with the broken glass in the face. (It was on CCTV recorded live) Bib's get called and find IP lying at locus bleeding like hell. IP is very drunk and aggresive and still wants to fight the world. Bib's ask him does he want to make a complaint. Ok English/Welsh boys might get lost here but in Scotland he does not get that option. (The Procurator Fiscal is now deciding who gets charged and he prosecutes on behalf of the people of Scotland not based on the individual. Us cops are just proffessional witnesses and agents of the crown)(More on the PF if required) IP says Feck off plod. He is taken to hospital and admitted. No further action by plod.
WRONG
I am duty DC the next day and get it for enquiry. CCTV obtained. Bags of evidence for serious assault to endangerment of life and permanent disfigurement (Scottish charge) All bystanders identified and give statements. IP re-interviewed when he got out of hospital. Explains that he remembers little of the assault. Doctor confirms he was suffering from post traumatic shock and fight or flight syndrome hence his aggresive non-compliant attitude. Bad guy locked up 5 years.......Its not difficult people. It proves the point though
Regards GB
streaky said:
gently bentley said:
[ ... ]
When you are on holiday abroad look at their bib's. Guns, sunglasses, military looking, no public interaction.
Er, have you taken a look at some of your colleagues recently? - StreakyWhen you are on holiday abroad look at their bib's. Guns, sunglasses, military looking, no public interaction.
Fair point Streaky. I hate seeing these clown dressed up like that too. If I worked with one like that (and I have in the past) I would give them an ear bashing and a boot in the stones. You usually find its the young ones out the wrapper on a power trip. A wee while at the coal face takes that crap out them.... or they join the traffic dept. (Oh crap said it now)
gently bentley said:
streaky said:
gently bentley said:
[ ... ]
When you are on holiday abroad look at their bib's. Guns, sunglasses, military looking, no public interaction.
Er, have you taken a look at some of your colleagues recently? - StreakyWhen you are on holiday abroad look at their bib's. Guns, sunglasses, military looking, no public interaction.
Fair point Streaky. I hate seeing these clown dressed up like that too. If I worked with one like that (and I have in the past) I would give them an ear bashing and a boot in the stones. You usually find its the young ones out the wrapper on a power trip. A wee while at the coal face takes that crap out them.... or they join the traffic dept. (Oh crap said it now)
Out of the mouths of babes and innocents......
You'll be damned by certain sections of the community if you do, & damned by others if you don't
Don't carry or pretend you have a gun, real or immitation.
Don't carry or pretend you have a gun, real or immitation.
vonhosen said:
You'll be damned by certain sections of the community if you do, & damned by others if you don't
Don't carry or pretend you have a gun, real or immitation.
Don't carry or pretend you have a gun, real or immitation.
For once I am in total agreement. However the incident that led to gun law being severely tightened, affecting peoples legitimate rights in the process, (gun clubs, target shooters, and our oylympic teams) was if I remember Dunblane. Again, if I remember correctly, the weapon used in that incident was illegal under the laws in force at the time, (any scottish BiB care to confirm?). Enforce the old laws properly, not introduce new draconian measures to cover up for inadequacies or mistakes in implementation, new laws which restrict civil liberties and are not needed.
Hang on, aren't the problems caused by speeding covered by previously existing laws re dangerous driving, driving without due care, etc.......
mmmmmmm
andmole said:
vonhosen said:
You'll be damned by certain sections of the community if you do, & damned by others if you don't
Don't carry or pretend you have a gun, real or immitation.
Don't carry or pretend you have a gun, real or immitation.
For once I am in total agreement. However the incident that led to gun law being severely tightened, affecting peoples legitimate rights in the process, (gun clubs, target shooters, and our oylympic teams) was if I remember Dunblane. Again, if I remember correctly, the weapon used in that incident was illegal under the laws in force at the time, (any scottish BiB care to confirm?). Enforce the old laws properly, not introduce new draconian measures to cover up for inadequacies or mistakes in implementation, new laws which restrict civil liberties and are not needed.
Hang on, aren't the problems caused by speeding covered by previously existing laws re dangerous driving, driving without due care, etc.......
mmmmmmm
Michal Ryan (Hungerford) & Thomas Hamilton (Dunblane) were both members of pistol clubs & firearms licence holders.
Speeding isn't covered by dangerous driving etc.
You aren't allowed to speed even if you judge it as safe to, because safe or dangerous is a judgement call & you aren't allowed to make that judgement call outside of the parameters you have been licenced to. Just as you are not allowed to own firearms that aren't on your firearms certificate, just because you have a certfificate. You are only permitted to act within the terms of the licence.
vonhosen said:
andmole said:
vonhosen said:
You'll be damned by certain sections of the community if you do, & damned by others if you don't
Don't carry or pretend you have a gun, real or immitation.
Don't carry or pretend you have a gun, real or immitation.
For once I am in total agreement. However the incident that led to gun law being severely tightened, affecting peoples legitimate rights in the process, (gun clubs, target shooters, and our oylympic teams) was if I remember Dunblane. Again, if I remember correctly, the weapon used in that incident was illegal under the laws in force at the time, (any scottish BiB care to confirm?). Enforce the old laws properly, not introduce new draconian measures to cover up for inadequacies or mistakes in implementation, new laws which restrict civil liberties and are not needed.
Hang on, aren't the problems caused by speeding covered by previously existing laws re dangerous driving, driving without due care, etc.......
mmmmmmm
Michal Ryan (Hungerford) & Thomas Hamilton (Dunblane) were both members of pistol clubs & firearms licence holders.
Speeding isn't covered by dangerous driving etc.
You aren't allowed to speed even if you judge it as safe to, because safe or dangerous is a judgement call & you aren't allowed to make that judgement call outside of the parameters you have been licenced to. Just as you are not allowed to own firearms that aren't on your firearms certificate, just because you have a certfificate. You are only permitted to act within the terms of the licence.
They may have been members of gun clubs, BUT were they supposed to have the weapons that they had, in the circumstances that they had them. I suspect not.
As for the speeding comments, same old dogma and claptrap. If speeding isn't covered by dangerous driving, perhaps that's because it isn't dangerous.
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