Italian SAGARIS
Discussion
here the firsts
other are coming
......mmmm really
all the factory
www.ukgarage.it/galleria/displayimage.php?album=18&pos=14
www.ukgarage.it/galleria/displayimage.php?album=18&pos=18
www.ukgarage.it/galleria/displayimage.php?album=18&pos=19
www.ukgarage.it/galleria/displayimage.php?album=18&pos=20
www.ukgarage.it/galleria/displayimage.php?album=18&pos=27
www.ukgarage.it/galleria/displayimage.php?album=18&pos=25
www.ukgarage.it/galleria/displayimage.php?album=18&pos=15
other are coming
......mmmm really
all the factory
www.ukgarage.it/galleria/displayimage.php?album=18&pos=14
www.ukgarage.it/galleria/displayimage.php?album=18&pos=18
www.ukgarage.it/galleria/displayimage.php?album=18&pos=19
www.ukgarage.it/galleria/displayimage.php?album=18&pos=20
www.ukgarage.it/galleria/displayimage.php?album=18&pos=27
www.ukgarage.it/galleria/displayimage.php?album=18&pos=25
www.ukgarage.it/galleria/displayimage.php?album=18&pos=15
Well if TVR have a market in Europe good luck to them. I believe the UK market has been wrung dry in sales and manufacturing abbility due to red tape and lazy dont care british attitude.
The only way TVR or any other business can stay afloat is for people to buy there product. That means giving TVR the company your money. I dont beleive TVR owners who have never purchased from the factory can bleat to much on the current state of affairs at TVR concidering they have never done anything to help TVR.
Its a bit like bleating when the local grocer packs up when you shop in tescos.
The only way TVR or any other business can stay afloat is for people to buy there product. That means giving TVR the company your money. I dont beleive TVR owners who have never purchased from the factory can bleat to much on the current state of affairs at TVR concidering they have never done anything to help TVR.
Its a bit like bleating when the local grocer packs up when you shop in tescos.
There were 2 Italian cars being built at the factory. They were the only cars purchasing were allowed to buy parts for. As I understand it, 2 Italian cars had already been delivered, these last 2 were sent either yesterday or the day before.
There is additional news attached to that story but in the current TVR legal climate it probably isnt something that should be said on here and get Ted's arse further into trouble!
Oh and I understand there should be additional TVR related employment news today. I was a little sceptical when I was told, I thought once the 90 day consultancy period had started nothing else could be said or done, but I know bugger all about employment law, so Im afraid that is the extent of my knowledge. Its a wait n see job.
There is additional news attached to that story but in the current TVR legal climate it probably isnt something that should be said on here and get Ted's arse further into trouble!
Oh and I understand there should be additional TVR related employment news today. I was a little sceptical when I was told, I thought once the 90 day consultancy period had started nothing else could be said or done, but I know bugger all about employment law, so Im afraid that is the extent of my knowledge. Its a wait n see job.
Edited by DJC on Friday 10th November 10:36
yi8tvr said:
I dont beleive TVR owners who have never purchased from the factory can bleat to much on the current state of affairs at TVR concidering they have never done anything to help TVR.
What utter rubbish. So people who buy new TVR's do what with their old ones? Scrap them? When I bought a 12 month old car, the seller bought a new Sagaris. If he couldn't have sold his old car he would not have done. So, indirectly, by providing a way for the new purchaser to upgrade, I supported the factory. I also had the car serviced and upgraded there.
_deejay_ said:
yi8tvr said:
I dont beleive TVR owners who have never purchased from the factory can bleat to much on the current state of affairs at TVR concidering they have never done anything to help TVR.
What utter rubbish. So people who buy new TVR's do what with their old ones? Scrap them? When I bought a 12 month old car, the seller bought a new Sagaris. If he couldn't have sold his old car he would not have done. So, indirectly, by providing a way for the new purchaser to upgrade, I supported the factory. I also had the car serviced and upgraded there.
They sell them but not every body who sells a TVR buys a new one. TVR needed to sell cars to stay afloat i dont think you have to be a rocket scientist to work that out. I done my bit and bought new giving TVR my money, to many folk on hear at the moment gobbing off but have done nothing to help keep TVR alive. Even the spare parts are out sourced because most parts are off something else anyway.
HAVE YOU HELPED..
Just an opinion...
Mark.
Quinny said:
yi8tvr said:
The only way TVR or any other business can stay afloat is for people to buy there product. That means giving TVR the company your money. I dont beleive TVR owners who have never purchased from the factory can bleat to much on the current state of affairs at TVR concidering they have never done anything to help TVR.
Bit difficult to help them, when they don't make anything I'd want to buy.
Well if the
Tuscan
Sagaris
T350 c or t
Tamora
Cerbera
has never taken your fancy over the past 5 years then fair play to you.
Not everyone can afford a brand new TVR, hence second hand sales. By driving one around (second hand or not) you will get looks from many people (due to the nature of the car's styling) and may inspire another person to buy a TVR, so you can't blame people who buy second hand cars for the collapse of TVR UK.
Xaero said:
Not everyone can afford a brand new TVR, hence second hand sales. By driving one around (second hand or not) you will get looks from many people (due to the nature of the car's styling) and may inspire another person to buy a TVR, so you can't blame people who buy second hand cars for the collapse of TVR UK.
Im not blaming them, Im just pointing out that for TVR to have stayed alive they needed to sell cars. Just because you own a TVR does not mean to say you have supported them.
Support as in give up your hard earned cash to TVR.
This is just a point and i am sure people will have different views.
Quinny said:
yi8tvr said:
Well if the
Tuscan
Sagaris
T350 c or t
Tamora
Cerbera
has never taken your fancy over the past 5 years then fair play to you.
Tuscan
Sagaris
T350 c or t
Tamora
Cerbera
has never taken your fancy over the past 5 years then fair play to you.
Not trying to be funny but in all honesty none of them really do appeal
Tuscan? Love the shape
convertable wouldn't be able to enjoy it as I'd always be wondering how long the engine would last. Sagaris? Hard top, no thanks, don't like all the vents and slots, too expensive
T350? probably my favorite model
nice clean lines, there's something about the T350 thats just right But for me it has to be a proper convertable, although I could be tempted by a T350 Targa, but not enough to give up the Griff Tamora? Just not to keen on the styling, plus the speed 6 question keeps rearing it's ugly head
Cerbera? Not a convertable
So what the bloody hell do you want? you may ask
Easy really. As I suspect with a lot of other owners, my TVR is a toy, so It dosen't need to be practicle (for everyday use) and it dosen't have to be that refined.
It needs to be:
Convertable
Good looking (Griff, Tuscan, Chim) but with a more up to date look
V8
Fast
Loud
Reliable
And finally £30 to £40k
Easy bloke to please then
yi8tvr said:
TVR needed to sell cars to stay afloat i dont think you have to be a rocket scientist to work that out.
It's just not that simple, TVR need to be profitable to stay afloat. TVR didn't listen to their customers (who were previously mostly repeat customers) so didn't sell as many cars as they would have done. I ordered a Sagaris, then Nik bought the company and started changing things, so I cancelled it.
Surely a 'non-rocket scientist' would also realise new car sales is not their own revenue stream.
As has been pointed out by others, servicing and parts are much more profitable. Parts may be off other marques, but TVR make money on lots of them.
I did 15000 miles a year in my t350c. I never used the TVR provided warranty (1200 quid pure profit to TVR then) and had it serviced 3 times (when I got it, after 6k miles and 12k miles). I also had lots of non-necessary items (factory cooling mods etc) done to it.
All in all, I probably paid the factory £4000 quid in a year, and have done most years since I bought my first TVR. If you keep your warrantied new car for 3 years I'd guess they'd make more money from me than you.
I'm sorry but your I just don't see the logic behind your argument. TVR need their new and old cars to be desirable to be successful (as I mentioned previously). They DO need new car sales, but it's far from the be all and end all.
deejay,
first, parts and services may have been more profitable as a percentage (ie. what it cost TVR versus what TVR made by selling such items/services) but the amount of profit made was greater from new car sales than from parts and service, at least until close to the sorry end. Car sales may not have been their only revenue stream, or the most profitable one, but they would have accounted for the bulk of revenues, and, as such, were critical. TVR would never have made more money by ceasing manufacturing and providing parts and service only. This would be the case if what you are suggesting was valid. It's not.
Second, while you may have spent more and not used your warranty, plenty of others did. You need to look at the situation from beyond your own personal experience. And your entire payment was not pure profit for TVR--each warranty policy required a payment from TVR to its own insurance underwriters--they weren't free for TVR. In addition, warranties actually get counted as a liability, so they reduced TVR's ability to obtain credit and increased the cost of any financing (though not by much).
Third, because there were substantial fixed costs which needed to be spread over the number of cars sold, sales volume and profitability went hand in hand, unless each car could be sold for tens of millions. yi8tvr is very much correct in saying they needed to sell (far more) cars.
I do agree with your point about NS not catering to the customers or understanding the true nature of TVR customers' loyalty, which created the trend of repeat purchases by a very significant portion of TVR owners. This was definitely a factor in TVR's prior success, and in its failure under NS. He did not seem to understand its significance, and seemed to rebuff repeat customers in favour of new ones (with a different demographic profile, a disastrous shift to make), made many other poor decisions, and sales ground to a virtual standstill. New car sales mattered--hugely--and as they declined, so did the company's fortunes.
first, parts and services may have been more profitable as a percentage (ie. what it cost TVR versus what TVR made by selling such items/services) but the amount of profit made was greater from new car sales than from parts and service, at least until close to the sorry end. Car sales may not have been their only revenue stream, or the most profitable one, but they would have accounted for the bulk of revenues, and, as such, were critical. TVR would never have made more money by ceasing manufacturing and providing parts and service only. This would be the case if what you are suggesting was valid. It's not.
Second, while you may have spent more and not used your warranty, plenty of others did. You need to look at the situation from beyond your own personal experience. And your entire payment was not pure profit for TVR--each warranty policy required a payment from TVR to its own insurance underwriters--they weren't free for TVR. In addition, warranties actually get counted as a liability, so they reduced TVR's ability to obtain credit and increased the cost of any financing (though not by much).
Third, because there were substantial fixed costs which needed to be spread over the number of cars sold, sales volume and profitability went hand in hand, unless each car could be sold for tens of millions. yi8tvr is very much correct in saying they needed to sell (far more) cars.
I do agree with your point about NS not catering to the customers or understanding the true nature of TVR customers' loyalty, which created the trend of repeat purchases by a very significant portion of TVR owners. This was definitely a factor in TVR's prior success, and in its failure under NS. He did not seem to understand its significance, and seemed to rebuff repeat customers in favour of new ones (with a different demographic profile, a disastrous shift to make), made many other poor decisions, and sales ground to a virtual standstill. New car sales mattered--hugely--and as they declined, so did the company's fortunes.
Edited by orgasmicliving!! on Monday 13th November 04:50
A few things to say here:
1. The cars in the pics have sideways exhausts and I thought the rear facing ones had been introduced for the European market.
2. TVR needed to sell cars to stay in profit... TRUE! But they also needed to build cars that were finished. My Sagaris was badly built and the paint fell off. All the issues I had were down to shoddy workmanship. People keep bleating about the workers but they were responsible for building the cars so badly in the first place. You would have expected that if they were only building 2 cars a week then they would have been perfect! It was not as if they rushed them out in a couple of weeks.
3. You cannot blame the customers who would not buy TVR's for TVR's demise. They made their choice because of the state of the company and the poor quality in the cars. When I wrote my Sagaris off I was offered a brand new one by the insurance. I declined and took a loss on a cash settlement. Why? because I could not see a future for TVR and the warranty was only as good as the company. Spending close to £60k on a car that is badly built and has an engine that is likely to fail where the company is about to close so you would have no warranty anyway was too big a risk!
Just my feelings on the matter
David
1. The cars in the pics have sideways exhausts and I thought the rear facing ones had been introduced for the European market.
2. TVR needed to sell cars to stay in profit... TRUE! But they also needed to build cars that were finished. My Sagaris was badly built and the paint fell off. All the issues I had were down to shoddy workmanship. People keep bleating about the workers but they were responsible for building the cars so badly in the first place. You would have expected that if they were only building 2 cars a week then they would have been perfect! It was not as if they rushed them out in a couple of weeks.
3. You cannot blame the customers who would not buy TVR's for TVR's demise. They made their choice because of the state of the company and the poor quality in the cars. When I wrote my Sagaris off I was offered a brand new one by the insurance. I declined and took a loss on a cash settlement. Why? because I could not see a future for TVR and the warranty was only as good as the company. Spending close to £60k on a car that is badly built and has an engine that is likely to fail where the company is about to close so you would have no warranty anyway was too big a risk!
Just my feelings on the matter
David
I was wondering about the sideways exhausts too!
Management was responsible for materials, supervision of work done, and final inspection/quality control processes. Management is also ultimately responsible for not addressing the poor quality, whether it's shoddy workmanship, contaminated paint booths, incoorect paint mixing procedures, paintwork being carried out at the wrong temperature, spray gun nozzles being clogged, whatever. The workers usually did the best they could with the training and materials and resources they had.
Agreed that you cannot blame the customers either. TVRs were unique and appealed to unique types. This niche market had very strong preferences and very strong loyalties (on the whole). TVR's failure is just due to management not being able to figure out how to continue to appeal to this customer. In a nutshell, they had to make decent quality cars that were very fast, looked gorgeous inside and out, and...that was it. The image was that of a British maverick company making a maverick product that appealed to...maverick types. Niggles like trim coming unglued could be tolerated, repeated engine failures could not.
As TVR's prices climbed, they appealed to a smaller market segment that was also a lot more finicky about what it would tolerate. Some of the later styling exercises also reduced the broad appeal of the cars. The Speed 6 failures were the death knell. PW's later years and NS' management addressed none of this. NS just seemed to issue one bizarre statement after another--from the Moscow showroom to the owner's cafes and TVR furniture plans to attempting to buy Rover and Benelli to the ridiculous orgasmic living lifestyle. What a retard.
Moving to Italy, if it even happens, is just another candidate for the WTF?! file.
Management was responsible for materials, supervision of work done, and final inspection/quality control processes. Management is also ultimately responsible for not addressing the poor quality, whether it's shoddy workmanship, contaminated paint booths, incoorect paint mixing procedures, paintwork being carried out at the wrong temperature, spray gun nozzles being clogged, whatever. The workers usually did the best they could with the training and materials and resources they had.
Agreed that you cannot blame the customers either. TVRs were unique and appealed to unique types. This niche market had very strong preferences and very strong loyalties (on the whole). TVR's failure is just due to management not being able to figure out how to continue to appeal to this customer. In a nutshell, they had to make decent quality cars that were very fast, looked gorgeous inside and out, and...that was it. The image was that of a British maverick company making a maverick product that appealed to...maverick types. Niggles like trim coming unglued could be tolerated, repeated engine failures could not.
As TVR's prices climbed, they appealed to a smaller market segment that was also a lot more finicky about what it would tolerate. Some of the later styling exercises also reduced the broad appeal of the cars. The Speed 6 failures were the death knell. PW's later years and NS' management addressed none of this. NS just seemed to issue one bizarre statement after another--from the Moscow showroom to the owner's cafes and TVR furniture plans to attempting to buy Rover and Benelli to the ridiculous orgasmic living lifestyle. What a retard.
Moving to Italy, if it even happens, is just another candidate for the WTF?! file.
Edited by orgasmicliving!! on Monday 13th November 17:23
dvpeace said:
My Sagaris was badly built and the paint fell off. All the issues I had were down to shoddy workmanship. People keep bleating about the workers but they were responsible for building the cars so badly in the first place. You would have expected that if they were only building 2 cars a week then they would have been perfect! It was not as if they rushed them out in a couple of weeks.
Was that all down to the workers then? If trim fell off or worked loose, who decided how it was stuck on or secured in the first place? If the paint fell off, who determined how the car was prepared/painted/finished off?
Most workers turn up to work and do what they are told the way they are told to do it. If the product is badly designed or developed on a shoestring it is hardly an assembly problem.
Not saying all work was faultless but just that it may be a little harsh to blame the downfall of TVR on the workers.
The initial issue was quality for NS was it not? I feel from my experiences that a TVR is something that you grow into, and that sometimes you buy something with your heart and then get the niggles fixed as you grow into it.Once you have it sorted you keep it for a few years and then buy another. It was the TVR owners that personified this process. EG the man whos had 14 TVR cars direct from the factory now being told to go to Cicely if he wants one.What a stupid move that was then. lets piss off a source of loyal income once and for all. The core business should have been retained and the business for all the new owner upper end cars been supported by their loyalty till new markets were established.
Its like owning a milk float and saying balls to the milk we'll sell champagne eggs and yoghurt. I agree with a lot of comments on this site and a V8 engined car is one of them, but there is a place for the speed six as there was a case for a car powered by a cheaper engine and hence cheaper car ie T350 with a Ford/Cosworth/Astra engine circa 2.2L.
I am a Blackpool born individual and all that is happening really pisses me off.
Its like owning a milk float and saying balls to the milk we'll sell champagne eggs and yoghurt. I agree with a lot of comments on this site and a V8 engined car is one of them, but there is a place for the speed six as there was a case for a car powered by a cheaper engine and hence cheaper car ie T350 with a Ford/Cosworth/Astra engine circa 2.2L.
I am a Blackpool born individual and all that is happening really pisses me off.
I think this is a bit of a narrow view. In the last year I have bought a brand new car from a TVR dealer and also a second hand TVR privately. For a car company to survive the whole jigsaw needs to be in place including a dealer network for sales and servicing. Most people buy a new car because there is a dealer reasonably handy to them and don't want to travel hundreds of miles to the factory. THese dealers need to sell new and second hand cars etc and so it goes on. I understand your argument about putting one's money where one's mouth is but I don't think you can cast the net so narrowly to just include new car sales.
Of course the heart of the issue is why those that have the 'boom' cars such as Griffs are not buying older Tuscans and the like - many of which fall into the same price bracket.
David
Of course the heart of the issue is why those that have the 'boom' cars such as Griffs are not buying older Tuscans and the like - many of which fall into the same price bracket.
David
yi8tvr said:
Well if TVR have a market in Europe good luck to them. I believe the UK market has been wrung dry in sales and manufacturing abbility due to red tape and lazy dont care british attitude.
The only way TVR or any other business can stay afloat is for people to buy there product. That means giving TVR the company your money. I dont beleive TVR owners who have never purchased from the factory can bleat to much on the current state of affairs at TVR concidering they have never done anything to help TVR.
Its a bit like bleating when the local grocer packs up when you shop in tescos.
The only way TVR or any other business can stay afloat is for people to buy there product. That means giving TVR the company your money. I dont beleive TVR owners who have never purchased from the factory can bleat to much on the current state of affairs at TVR concidering they have never done anything to help TVR.
Its a bit like bleating when the local grocer packs up when you shop in tescos.
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