Turning in smooth and early
Discussion
I've been thinking about my driving technique recently, specifically with regard to driving quickly (and safely) on that most enjoyable of blacktop interface, your 'typical british b-road'.
Assuming clear sight lines (because otherwise speed is always limited by vision) I've been turning in earlier but smoother which probably sounds like it goes a little against the accepted wisdom (or at least what we're taught on track where turn in late, power early is the mantra).
Reason? Well when I thought about it, it occured to me that I was normally a little further away from (the nominal) apex than ideal leading to turning harder at slower speed with less stability..... I thought further than this and it occured to me that I was employing an overly 'reactive' approach to planning my line through a given corner than I would on track, where I seem to intuitively get to the apex at the correct moment. Not having 6" kerbs to punish the wheels probably helps here
I guess its obvious that by the time you've thought 'oh I need to be there' its too late for the ideal (correct?) line to be achieved which is slower, less fun and not as safe. By being more proactive about the turn-in phase I've found myself loading the outside front tyre at correct moment to use the weight transfer to get the nose exactly where I want it, ie as close as safely possible to the inside of the bend.
Overall I steer earlier but turn the wheel less, turn the wheel slower and more smoothly, brake at the same point (as before) but roll off earlier, and carry more speed through the apex whilst using less roadspace. Crucially, I'm exiting in the same place but with more speed and greater stability. All the while, because I've thought earlier about my approach to the corner I've actually got more time to deal with any unexpected situations.
So, why the post? Well partially I'm looking for vindication from pro's! Also, its always good to discuss driving techniques which make driving safer & more enjoyable IMHO. Any thoughts?
Assuming clear sight lines (because otherwise speed is always limited by vision) I've been turning in earlier but smoother which probably sounds like it goes a little against the accepted wisdom (or at least what we're taught on track where turn in late, power early is the mantra).
Reason? Well when I thought about it, it occured to me that I was normally a little further away from (the nominal) apex than ideal leading to turning harder at slower speed with less stability..... I thought further than this and it occured to me that I was employing an overly 'reactive' approach to planning my line through a given corner than I would on track, where I seem to intuitively get to the apex at the correct moment. Not having 6" kerbs to punish the wheels probably helps here
I guess its obvious that by the time you've thought 'oh I need to be there' its too late for the ideal (correct?) line to be achieved which is slower, less fun and not as safe. By being more proactive about the turn-in phase I've found myself loading the outside front tyre at correct moment to use the weight transfer to get the nose exactly where I want it, ie as close as safely possible to the inside of the bend.
Overall I steer earlier but turn the wheel less, turn the wheel slower and more smoothly, brake at the same point (as before) but roll off earlier, and carry more speed through the apex whilst using less roadspace. Crucially, I'm exiting in the same place but with more speed and greater stability. All the while, because I've thought earlier about my approach to the corner I've actually got more time to deal with any unexpected situations.
So, why the post? Well partially I'm looking for vindication from pro's! Also, its always good to discuss driving techniques which make driving safer & more enjoyable IMHO. Any thoughts?
I'd like to think of cornering in terms of lines, not points. If I can clearly see the exit area of a bend, then I visualise the smoothest (ie. the straightest) line possible and drive on it, adjusting the throttle, brakes, and gearing by feel.
Thinking about points -- braking point, turning in point, apexing point, exit point, etc. -- tends to result in "pointy" driving: actions performed in rigid steps instead of flowing into one another, mind so focused on meeting those points that you become inflexible in your driving. That is not the way to smoothness, nor does it contribute to safety or speed.
Although I'm not a "pro", I think it makes sense that if you have clear sight of the exit of a bend, then you should be able to turn in earlier than if visibility is obstructed. However be aware that some bends give an optical illusion of being less tight than what it really is. When driving on the road, I generally prefer a line which results in me exiting the bend in the middle of my lane rather than running wide.
Something that should also be avoided is the practice of trying to clip the inside of a bend when you don't need to. Some drivers approach a bend on a wide line, and then when they can see the exit, they turn sharpish into a tight line, clipping the inside of the bend and exiting very tightly. Often this is unnecessary, because staying on a wide line or just creeping toward the middle of the lane, can result in a smoother turn.
Thinking about points -- braking point, turning in point, apexing point, exit point, etc. -- tends to result in "pointy" driving: actions performed in rigid steps instead of flowing into one another, mind so focused on meeting those points that you become inflexible in your driving. That is not the way to smoothness, nor does it contribute to safety or speed.
Although I'm not a "pro", I think it makes sense that if you have clear sight of the exit of a bend, then you should be able to turn in earlier than if visibility is obstructed. However be aware that some bends give an optical illusion of being less tight than what it really is. When driving on the road, I generally prefer a line which results in me exiting the bend in the middle of my lane rather than running wide.
Something that should also be avoided is the practice of trying to clip the inside of a bend when you don't need to. Some drivers approach a bend on a wide line, and then when they can see the exit, they turn sharpish into a tight line, clipping the inside of the bend and exiting very tightly. Often this is unnecessary, because staying on a wide line or just creeping toward the middle of the lane, can result in a smoother turn.
there are other requirements that come into play on the road...for example...
one might be driving for vision (even if you are not speed limited by lack of a clear view) which would keep you out to the right on a lh bend for example. The would be eclipsing thoughts of "apexing". This might also lead you back to the 'late turn in'.
Graham
one might be driving for vision (even if you are not speed limited by lack of a clear view) which would keep you out to the right on a lh bend for example. The would be eclipsing thoughts of "apexing". This might also lead you back to the 'late turn in'.
Graham
trackdemon said:
I've been thinking about my driving technique recently
Tick one.
trackdemon said:
Assuming clear sight lines (because otherwise speed is always limited by vision)
Tick two.
trackdemon said:
...turn the wheel less...turn the wheel slower...more smoothly...but roll off earlier...using less roadspace...greater stability...I've thought earlier about my approach to the corner...more time to deal with any unexpected situations.
Tick three.
Your thinking seems spot on, so assuming the vision is as you say, and assuming that the circumstances support the decision, then it sounds about right, in that it is giving you what you think it should be giving you.
BFF
I'm inclined to agree that it is harder to optimise the lines and speed on the road than on the track because the signals are so much weaker when you stay well within the limit of grip. The more committed you are, the stronger the feedback that enables you to optimise your course and speed. And the more important that you get it right, of course.
I find that in gentle pootling trying to optimise for passenger comfort and wear and tear it takes a great deal of concentration to get it right, and I find myself feeding lock on and off millimeter by millimeter in order to minimise acceleration, and rate of change of acceleration. It's hard work to judge the line and speed that accurately at such low acceleration levels, much harder than tackling the same corner at ten tenths, but I find it's a good way to stop those skills fading away while I'm driving like Miss Daisy.
I find that in gentle pootling trying to optimise for passenger comfort and wear and tear it takes a great deal of concentration to get it right, and I find myself feeding lock on and off millimeter by millimeter in order to minimise acceleration, and rate of change of acceleration. It's hard work to judge the line and speed that accurately at such low acceleration levels, much harder than tackling the same corner at ten tenths, but I find it's a good way to stop those skills fading away while I'm driving like Miss Daisy.
A couple of very quick thoughts...
A tendency to turn in early is frequently indicative of a driver who lacks confidence in their assessment of entry speed or the car's ability to grip. That's not a place you want to be.
In an isolated bend affording excellent visibility (wrt what you can see, what you can't and what might occur), you might adapt the line to chose an earlier apex. But it's imperative to consider your trajectory on the exit of the bend, and your ability to position the car to the left (able to remain there) at the exit of a LH bend.
You can start turning the wheel a long time before you aim to turn the car. Very little, very gradually, in order to settle the car prior to turning.
WilliBetz
A tendency to turn in early is frequently indicative of a driver who lacks confidence in their assessment of entry speed or the car's ability to grip. That's not a place you want to be.
In an isolated bend affording excellent visibility (wrt what you can see, what you can't and what might occur), you might adapt the line to chose an earlier apex. But it's imperative to consider your trajectory on the exit of the bend, and your ability to position the car to the left (able to remain there) at the exit of a LH bend.
You can start turning the wheel a long time before you aim to turn the car. Very little, very gradually, in order to settle the car prior to turning.
WilliBetz
WilliBetz said:
You can start turning the wheel a long time before you aim to turn the car. Very little, very gradually, in order to settle the car prior to turning.
WilliBetz
I always impress on candidates that it's a bit like a nurse giving you an injection.
You'll be told ahead of time what's going to happen & the build up to the injection will be gradual steps letting you know exactly when it's coming & what to expect.
It shouldn't just be a nasty stabbing surprise that unsettles you & makes you (or the car) jump.
WilliBetz said:
A couple of very quick thoughts...
A tendency to turn in early is frequently indicative of a driver who lacks confidence in their assessment of entry speed or the car's ability to grip. That's not a place you want to be.
In an isolated bend affording excellent visibility (wrt what you can see, what you can't and what might occur), you might adapt the line to chose an earlier apex. But it's imperative to consider your trajectory on the exit of the bend, and your ability to position the car to the left (able to remain there) at the exit of a LH bend.
You can start turning the wheel a long time before you aim to turn the car. Very little, very gradually, in order to settle the car prior to turning.
WilliBetz
A tendency to turn in early is frequently indicative of a driver who lacks confidence in their assessment of entry speed or the car's ability to grip. That's not a place you want to be.
In an isolated bend affording excellent visibility (wrt what you can see, what you can't and what might occur), you might adapt the line to chose an earlier apex. But it's imperative to consider your trajectory on the exit of the bend, and your ability to position the car to the left (able to remain there) at the exit of a LH bend.
You can start turning the wheel a long time before you aim to turn the car. Very little, very gradually, in order to settle the car prior to turning.
WilliBetz
Not sure if the first point is aimed at me or not, but your final point is precisely the point I'm making. The idea is to make everything behind the wheel that little smoother, more relaxed & pro-active.
trackdemon said:
WilliBetz said:
A couple of very quick thoughts...
A tendency to turn in early is frequently indicative of a driver who lacks confidence in their assessment of entry speed or the car's ability to grip. That's not a place you want to be.
In an isolated bend affording excellent visibility (wrt what you can see, what you can't and what might occur), you might adapt the line to chose an earlier apex. But it's imperative to consider your trajectory on the exit of the bend, and your ability to position the car to the left (able to remain there) at the exit of a LH bend.
You can start turning the wheel a long time before you aim to turn the car. Very little, very gradually, in order to settle the car prior to turning.
WilliBetz
A tendency to turn in early is frequently indicative of a driver who lacks confidence in their assessment of entry speed or the car's ability to grip. That's not a place you want to be.
In an isolated bend affording excellent visibility (wrt what you can see, what you can't and what might occur), you might adapt the line to chose an earlier apex. But it's imperative to consider your trajectory on the exit of the bend, and your ability to position the car to the left (able to remain there) at the exit of a LH bend.
You can start turning the wheel a long time before you aim to turn the car. Very little, very gradually, in order to settle the car prior to turning.
WilliBetz
Not sure if the first point is aimed at me or not, but your final point is precisely the point I'm making. The idea is to make everything behind the wheel that little smoother, more relaxed & pro-active.
Shouldn't be saved just for steering either. The same principles should be applied to all vehicle inputs.
vonhosen said:
trackdemon said:
WilliBetz said:
A couple of very quick thoughts...
A tendency to turn in early is frequently indicative of a driver who lacks confidence in their assessment of entry speed or the car's ability to grip. That's not a place you want to be.
In an isolated bend affording excellent visibility (wrt what you can see, what you can't and what might occur), you might adapt the line to chose an earlier apex. But it's imperative to consider your trajectory on the exit of the bend, and your ability to position the car to the left (able to remain there) at the exit of a LH bend.
You can start turning the wheel a long time before you aim to turn the car. Very little, very gradually, in order to settle the car prior to turning.
WilliBetz
A tendency to turn in early is frequently indicative of a driver who lacks confidence in their assessment of entry speed or the car's ability to grip. That's not a place you want to be.
In an isolated bend affording excellent visibility (wrt what you can see, what you can't and what might occur), you might adapt the line to chose an earlier apex. But it's imperative to consider your trajectory on the exit of the bend, and your ability to position the car to the left (able to remain there) at the exit of a LH bend.
You can start turning the wheel a long time before you aim to turn the car. Very little, very gradually, in order to settle the car prior to turning.
WilliBetz
Not sure if the first point is aimed at me or not, but your final point is precisely the point I'm making. The idea is to make everything behind the wheel that little smoother, more relaxed & pro-active.
Shouldn't be saved just for steering either. The same principles should be applied to all vehicle inputs.
trackdemon said:
The idea is to make everything behind the wheel that little smoother....
Smooth and settled is the best way to go on or off track, but sometimes when you are on the limit, you need to use sudden inputs to take advantage of transient effects, for example to avoid getting stuck in a region of understeer.
At the other end of the scale, I had another great demonstration of smooth driving from Roy Lane at Prescott a few years back. To set the scene, we'd spent the day driving up the hill in fast cars with varying degrees of skill, and towards the end we were driven up in groups by Roy in a manky old Ford Granada. This was a substantial come-down from the cars we'd been wellying up the hill ourselves. To stop the tyres rolling off the rim Roy had the cheap rubbishy old tyres pumped up to about 60 psi and there *should* have been no grip at all. Obviously, being a master craftsman Roy was on the perfect line, at the perfect speed, and kept the tyres right on the limit the whole way up without the slightest disturbance. But the thing that struck me the most was seeing how he actively drove the car around three axes (pitch, roll, yaw) to control the steering and cornering transients. Each corner consisted of four extremely positive steering inputs, a moderate step input to start the car yawing and rolling, the tired old suspension rolled like a barge, and when it had reached the peak and was about to roll back he snapped on another load of lock to hold it there, the whole thing beautifully anticipated so that the load came on smoothly at the turn-in point. Similarly for the braking and throttle. The result was a wallowy old barge that entered and left each corner is crisply as you like, without a hint of drama and perfectly balanced the whole way. I'm sure we all feel the three dimensional aspect to a good spirited drive, but I've never seen it demonstrated so superbly. One day, when I grow up, I want to be able to drive like that. I guess I'll just have to keep practicing...
At the other end of the scale, I had another great demonstration of smooth driving from Roy Lane at Prescott a few years back. To set the scene, we'd spent the day driving up the hill in fast cars with varying degrees of skill, and towards the end we were driven up in groups by Roy in a manky old Ford Granada. This was a substantial come-down from the cars we'd been wellying up the hill ourselves. To stop the tyres rolling off the rim Roy had the cheap rubbishy old tyres pumped up to about 60 psi and there *should* have been no grip at all. Obviously, being a master craftsman Roy was on the perfect line, at the perfect speed, and kept the tyres right on the limit the whole way up without the slightest disturbance. But the thing that struck me the most was seeing how he actively drove the car around three axes (pitch, roll, yaw) to control the steering and cornering transients. Each corner consisted of four extremely positive steering inputs, a moderate step input to start the car yawing and rolling, the tired old suspension rolled like a barge, and when it had reached the peak and was about to roll back he snapped on another load of lock to hold it there, the whole thing beautifully anticipated so that the load came on smoothly at the turn-in point. Similarly for the braking and throttle. The result was a wallowy old barge that entered and left each corner is crisply as you like, without a hint of drama and perfectly balanced the whole way. I'm sure we all feel the three dimensional aspect to a good spirited drive, but I've never seen it demonstrated so superbly. One day, when I grow up, I want to be able to drive like that. I guess I'll just have to keep practicing...
I've oft thought it could be good fun - and a good lesson in smooth driving - to drive a crap car over your favourite road. Cars are so good these days that many mistakes that would be punished in a lesser car dont even appear to be mistakes in todays ultra composed, high grip vehicles. Not that I'm going to rush out and buy a Scorpio you understand 
trackdemon said:
I've oft thought it could be good fun - and a good lesson in smooth driving - to drive a crap car over your favourite road. Cars are so good these days that many mistakes that would be punished in a lesser car dont even appear to be mistakes in todays ultra composed, high grip vehicles. Not that I'm going to rush out and buy a Scorpio you understand
Indeed.
There are certain less polished & accomplished cars on the fleet that are better training aids.
They won't hide the drivers weaknesses, they'll highlight them.
"You're not setting it up right" leads to "Yeah, yeah"
Change of cars.
"You're not setting it up right" becomes "Oh yeah"
trackdemon said:
WilliBetz said:
A couple of very quick thoughts...
A tendency to turn in early is frequently indicative of a driver who lacks confidence in their assessment of entry speed or the car's ability to grip. That's not a place you want to be.
In an isolated bend affording excellent visibility (wrt what you can see, what you can't and what might occur), you might adapt the line to chose an earlier apex. But it's imperative to consider your trajectory on the exit of the bend, and your ability to position the car to the left (able to remain there) at the exit of a LH bend.
You can start turning the wheel a long time before you aim to turn the car. Very little, very gradually, in order to settle the car prior to turning.
WilliBetz
A tendency to turn in early is frequently indicative of a driver who lacks confidence in their assessment of entry speed or the car's ability to grip. That's not a place you want to be.
In an isolated bend affording excellent visibility (wrt what you can see, what you can't and what might occur), you might adapt the line to chose an earlier apex. But it's imperative to consider your trajectory on the exit of the bend, and your ability to position the car to the left (able to remain there) at the exit of a LH bend.
You can start turning the wheel a long time before you aim to turn the car. Very little, very gradually, in order to settle the car prior to turning.
WilliBetz
Not sure if the first point is aimed at me or not, but your final point is precisely the point I'm making. The idea is to make everything behind the wheel that little smoother, more relaxed & pro-active.
There was no criticism intended. It just seemed important to distinguish between settling the car (a good thing) and adopting an earlier turn-in and apex (maybe not such a good thing). Being proactive, as you term it, seems very sound - a bit like looking and thinking a few moves ahead in chess.
Cheers,
WilliBetz
Cool, indeed the point is 'setting up' early for the corner rather than just arriving and turning. Of course turning in too early is of course a very bad thing, unless you enjoy running onto the opposite side of the road on exit! I generally take a wide entry into a bend where possible (ie if vision allows) which gives a nice natural exit close to the nearside.
Of course, you won't go far wrong if you follow this.
www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=109&i=7783
Amazing, just as the System and roadcraft teach (oh for ficks sake, lets not go there again).
BFF
www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=109&i=7783
Amazing, just as the System and roadcraft teach (oh for ficks sake, lets not go there again).
BFF
That may be one of a series of articles, and dependent on the others for context. But, taken in isolation, it seems suspect on lines and even worse when it comes to physics.
How about the old adage "adopt a line for visibility until the view opens, then consider adapting the line for stability"?
WilliBetz
How about the old adage "adopt a line for visibility until the view opens, then consider adapting the line for stability"?
WilliBetz
Edited by willibetz on Friday 17th November 16:13
Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff