RE: Stopping distances are pointless: campaign
Monday 13th November 2006
Tailgating: who me?What's the point of knowing your stopping distance, as the Highway Code insists we do?
Stopping distances are pointless: campaign
Most drivers don't know what they are, finds survey
Tailgating: who me?
That's the question posed by road safety campaign Safe Speed, following today's publication of a survey which finds that 56 per cent of drivers admit tailgating while 90 per cent don't know their stopping distances at some speeds.
Road safety campaign Safe Speed suggests that we "read between the lines" of the survey, which was commissioned by tyre and brake fitter Kwik-Fit.
According to Safe Speed:
- Not knowing your stopping distance in meters is of no consequence because it is impossible to measure metres on the road ahead.
- Tailgating is widespread but significantly under-represented in the accident statistics. While it's arguably not as dangerous as it's made out to be, it is strongly indicative of poor risk management.
Campaign founder Paul Smith said: "Knowing your stopping distance in feet or metres is of no practical use to drivers because we can't jump out at 70mph with a tape measure to check if we have time to stop. Instead we must - and we do - develop excellent judgement skills that show us how long it will take to stop in the visible road environment. We know we're good at it every time we bring a vehicle to a stop at a roundabout or a junction.
"It turns out that neither knowing your speed in miles per hour nor your stopping distance in metres is of any practical assistance to the process of driving on the roads. Instead we have to develop judgement and of course we do.
"The figure of 56 per cent of drivers admitting to tailgating reveals how much room there is for improvements in road safety through driver information and education.
"Despite the fact that we have the safest roads in the world based on the superior risk management skills of our drivers, there is much room for improvement. The government is making us into worse risk managers with endless demands that drivers obey the rules. Instead we need better information and better education.
"Any good road safety policy will build on our skills as risk managers. Present policy is making us worse at managing risk and managing risk is what matters."
Discussion
An interesting piece and the usual common sense from Paul Smith. Gawd, I wish the corridors of power had ears for this man.
On safety issues, it's certainly true that the 'authorities' are trying very hard to uneducate us.
An example is the Northampton-Market Harborough road, once as easy roll with sweeping bends and pleasure to drive on.
Now it's covered with cameras, warnings, white paint and all the other garbage beloved of the 'safety' campaigners.
The result is that you are now so busy coping with all this visual interference that actually driving is considerably harder.
Maybe it works in one small way though -- reduced traffic by one vehicle, as I avoid this now thoroughly unpleasant route like the plague!
On safety issues, it's certainly true that the 'authorities' are trying very hard to uneducate us.
An example is the Northampton-Market Harborough road, once as easy roll with sweeping bends and pleasure to drive on.
Now it's covered with cameras, warnings, white paint and all the other garbage beloved of the 'safety' campaigners.
The result is that you are now so busy coping with all this visual interference that actually driving is considerably harder.
Maybe it works in one small way though -- reduced traffic by one vehicle, as I avoid this now thoroughly unpleasant route like the plague!
I think stopping distances *are* useful.
Part of the IAM course involves learning "tricks" to help judge them. Reminders of the two second rule we all learn and how this changes with conditions.
On the motorway marker posts are spaces at 100 meter intervals - conveniently this is just over the "official" stopping distance at 70mph. Very handy.
Distances left between vehicles should be common sense - but common sense isn't all that common, sadly.
We really do need to get to grips with tailgating though. And its not "the nutters" people love to complain about who are actually the problem. Its US!
LEAVE ROOM
Part of the IAM course involves learning "tricks" to help judge them. Reminders of the two second rule we all learn and how this changes with conditions.
On the motorway marker posts are spaces at 100 meter intervals - conveniently this is just over the "official" stopping distance at 70mph. Very handy.
Distances left between vehicles should be common sense - but common sense isn't all that common, sadly.
We really do need to get to grips with tailgating though. And its not "the nutters" people love to complain about who are actually the problem. Its US!
LEAVE ROOM
It doesn't matter whether people know them or not.
Each car and conditions surely affects the distance, and it is down to driver judgement to determine what sort of distance is safe.
On top of that, much of the driving I see out on the roads, I am sure the protagonists know is dangerous/stupid/reckless but they do it anyways.....
Each car and conditions surely affects the distance, and it is down to driver judgement to determine what sort of distance is safe.
On top of that, much of the driving I see out on the roads, I am sure the protagonists know is dangerous/stupid/reckless but they do it anyways.....
Don said:
I think stopping distances *are* useful.
LEAVE ROOM
LEAVE ROOM
I also think stopping distances are useful. Unfortunately in the real world, if you leave a 96 metre gap between you and the car in front on a motorway (the Highway Code's recommended stopping distance at 70mph), someone will inevitably cut in front of you.
It is practically impossible to maintain these sorts of distances in today's traffic conditions.
As Paul Smith says, the focus should be on the education of drivers, not solely on imposing rules and limits.
So we are looking for better education by reducing the amount of information we require new drivers to assimilate?
The fact is that ANY knowledge of stopping distance is better than NO knowledge of stopping distance. By all means sharpen up the technical aspects of the test but removing it is wrong.
The fact is that ANY knowledge of stopping distance is better than NO knowledge of stopping distance. By all means sharpen up the technical aspects of the test but removing it is wrong.
mattyboy101 said:
Gazboy said:
The distances on the back of the highway code are horrificly out-dated though.
I think that's half the problem, whats the point knowing something that is wrong anyway?
But the highway code is aimed at the lowest point, not the average... There are still lots of cars on the roads with high braking distances, e.g. rear drum brakes, etc.
If I have to brake hard my concern is not just the car in front but mainly the car behind - judging not to hit someone is fairly straightforward in a modern performance car; however the challenge is judging how not to BE hit at the same time!
I braked hard when a car cut in and halved my (Jaguar) stopping distance on the motorway when we were already braking - I stopped, the car behind me stopped (BMW) and the 'older' car behind her (Sierra) didn't have a chance and promptly shunted her into me! The modern cars behind him all stopped with plenty of room and I'd say we were all equi-distant from each other when the hard braking started. (BiB still nailed him for undue care and attention though!)
Edited by john_r on Monday 13th November 11:10
carl_w said:
Would be better if they were shown in car-lengths. Anyone can judge car-lengths.
www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.htm#105
They are!
And are they outdated?
Well - yes they are. I would expect a good modern car with brakes in good condition, tyres in good condition and in dry weather to beat those distances by some margin.
Should we encourage drivers to take up the slack that good brakes have given us? Don't think so.
You know - some people actually come out with things like "I've got ABS so I don't need to leave a gap between me and the car in front"..
Whilst we're dealing with rubbish like that maybe we should just leave the advice in place!
Its a valid and good debate to have though. What alternatives are there we could use to assist new and young drivers in learning to leave a decent gap?
Don I think the only replacement for arbitary guidelines would be experience - which new drivers don't have, so we are stuck with the HC guidelines practically.
Although I think many older, experienced drivers would also struggle with the rules outlined in the HC, I know my parents did when I started learning.
Although I think many older, experienced drivers would also struggle with the rules outlined in the HC, I know my parents did when I started learning.
The most important lesson I ever received about stopping distances was not out of the dry pages of the Highway Code, or the DSA's manual of driving to test standards, but took place on a near-deserted rural road with a fence along one side, held up by regularly spaced posts.
"Get to 30mph", said the driving instructor, "and brake at that post."
Next, "Get to 50mph, and brake at that post."
Duly carried out.
"How many more posts did you go past that time?"
Stopping distances, in my mind, are a vital point of knowing how to drive a car. It's all very well to complain that people can't visualise metres, or that nobody sees any relevance in us all knowing that an Anglia with drum brakes can come to a halt in the length of nine Anglias, but the basic idea is sound, and it's the thinking that stays with you - as a result I haven't the first clue how many Anglia-lengths an Anglia will take to slide to a halt on its 1960s road surface, but I do constantly analyse when out on the road whether the clear space in front of me is sufficient for the Omega to haul up should the worst of the possible circumstances happen, without having the first clue how many metres, feet or indeed light years that represents.
And, of course, I vary that according to conditions and what can possibly happen given the situation.
(As noted, that means you don't need quite as much space on a lightly used motorway, unless of course you're being tailgated by a dangerously overloaded Sierra estate.)
What Paul is highlighting should be painfully obvious - and yet another example of the rampant deskilling of the driving process, replacing "risk management" with facts and figures. We shouldn't need painted chevrons telling us where to sit on the motorway, we should be able to work that out for ourselves.
Having mentioned those two things,
I think a lot of this is because the tailgatee will, to some extent, do the driving "for" the tailgater and leave more room to stop, and signal their intentions further in advance than might usually be the case. I know I go from illuminating the brakelights to actual, meaningful braking far more gradually when the only thing I can see in the mirror is a windscreen.
"Get to 30mph", said the driving instructor, "and brake at that post."
Next, "Get to 50mph, and brake at that post."
Duly carried out.
"How many more posts did you go past that time?"
Stopping distances, in my mind, are a vital point of knowing how to drive a car. It's all very well to complain that people can't visualise metres, or that nobody sees any relevance in us all knowing that an Anglia with drum brakes can come to a halt in the length of nine Anglias, but the basic idea is sound, and it's the thinking that stays with you - as a result I haven't the first clue how many Anglia-lengths an Anglia will take to slide to a halt on its 1960s road surface, but I do constantly analyse when out on the road whether the clear space in front of me is sufficient for the Omega to haul up should the worst of the possible circumstances happen, without having the first clue how many metres, feet or indeed light years that represents.
And, of course, I vary that according to conditions and what can possibly happen given the situation.
(As noted, that means you don't need quite as much space on a lightly used motorway, unless of course you're being tailgated by a dangerously overloaded Sierra estate.)
What Paul is highlighting should be painfully obvious - and yet another example of the rampant deskilling of the driving process, replacing "risk management" with facts and figures. We shouldn't need painted chevrons telling us where to sit on the motorway, we should be able to work that out for ourselves.
Having mentioned those two things,
Article said:
Tailgating is widespread but significantly under-represented in the accident statistics.
I think a lot of this is because the tailgatee will, to some extent, do the driving "for" the tailgater and leave more room to stop, and signal their intentions further in advance than might usually be the case. I know I go from illuminating the brakelights to actual, meaningful braking far more gradually when the only thing I can see in the mirror is a windscreen.
carl_w said:
ianthebruce said:
if they were done in car lengths then there would have to be one for each car on the road as not all the same length.Hear hear. Well said. Any "practical" guide is worthwhile and car length seems to be fairly straightforward. It has certainly served me well for many years. But, as someone else has said; it's watching out for those following that is the real trick. As my old IAM instructor used to say, "If you have to brake harshly either some idiot has done something stupid and you weren't observing properly or you're travelling too fast, too close". Bit harsh, perhaps, but contains more than just a grain of truth. Observation is the key, not some inane set of numbers.
O.K., I've stabled the high horse now.
Just to clarify...
I'm not suggesting that stopping distances should be scrapped, just that they are of very little practical value to experienced drivers. I can see some benefit in asking new drivers to learn and consider stopping distances before they have had the opportunity to develop judgement.
In the real world we don't base our stopping distance judgements on emergency stops. Instead we base it on 'comfortable' braking effort. This is excellent because it means that we always have a large margin for error.
Much more on this on page: www.safespeed.org.uk/braking.html
However, we might do better to teach learners stopping times because they are linear and predictable and because they more closely match the judgements that we make when driving.
I'm not suggesting that stopping distances should be scrapped, just that they are of very little practical value to experienced drivers. I can see some benefit in asking new drivers to learn and consider stopping distances before they have had the opportunity to develop judgement.
In the real world we don't base our stopping distance judgements on emergency stops. Instead we base it on 'comfortable' braking effort. This is excellent because it means that we always have a large margin for error.
Much more on this on page: www.safespeed.org.uk/braking.html
However, we might do better to teach learners stopping times because they are linear and predictable and because they more closely match the judgements that we make when driving.
gezkc said:
Don said:
I think stopping distances *are* useful.
LEAVE ROOM
LEAVE ROOM
I also think stopping distances are useful. Unfortunately in the real world, if you leave a 96 metre gap between you and the car in front on a motorway (the Highway Code's recommended stopping distance at 70mph), someone will inevitably cut in front of you.
It is practically impossible to maintain these sorts of distances in today's traffic conditions.
If everyone left a 96m gap we could only fit about half the current traffic on some of our motorways. We don't have the network capacity for everyone to drive at the Highway Code safety levels.
john_r said:
I braked hard when a car cut in and halved my (Jaguar) stopping distance on the motorway when we were already braking - I stopped, the car behind me stopped (BMW) and the 'older' car behind her (Sierra) didn't have a chance and promptly shunted her into me! The modern cars behind him all stopped with plenty of room and I'd say we were all equi-distant from each other when the hard braking started. (BiB still nailed him for undue care and attention though!)
Reminds me of a story my brother told me, he had to perform an emergency stop on the motorway and the Porsche behind him vanished from his rearview, he was very glad it was behind him
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