Funny isn't it....
Discussion
Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her "How could God let something like this happen?" (regarding the attacks on Sept. 11).
Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives.
And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?"
In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.
Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school ... the Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.
Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.
Then someone said teachers and principals better not discipline our children when they misbehave. The school administrators said no faculty member in this school better touch a student when they misbehave because we don't want any bad publicity, and we surely don't want to be sued (there's a big difference between disciplining, touching, beating, smacking, humiliating, kicking, etc.). And we said OK.
Then someone said, let's let our daughters have abortions if they want, and they won't even have to tell their parents. And we said OK.
Then some wise school board member said, since boys will be boys and they're going to do it anyway, let's give our sons all the condoms they want so they can have all the fun they desire, and we won't have to tell their parents they got them at school. And we said OK.
Then some of our top elected officials said it doesn't matter what we do in private as long as we do our jobs. Agreeing with them, we said it doesn't matter to me what anyone, including the President, does in private as long as I have a job and the economy is good.
Then someone said let's print magazines with pictures of nude women and call it wholesome, down-to-earth appreciation for the beauty of the female body. And we said OK.
And then someone else took that appreciation a step further and published pictures of nude children and then further again by making them available on the Internet. And we said OK, they're entitled to free speech.
Then the entertainment industry said, let's make TV shows and movies that promote profanity, violence, and illicit sex. Let's record music that encourages rape, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic themes. And we said it's just entertainment, it has no adverse effect, nobody takes it seriously anyway, so go right ahead.
Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.
Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."
Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.
Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.
Makes you think doesn't it......
****rant over****
Graham
>>> Edited by Graham.J on Tuesday 18th March 19:42
Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives.
And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?"
In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.
Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school ... the Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.
Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.
Then someone said teachers and principals better not discipline our children when they misbehave. The school administrators said no faculty member in this school better touch a student when they misbehave because we don't want any bad publicity, and we surely don't want to be sued (there's a big difference between disciplining, touching, beating, smacking, humiliating, kicking, etc.). And we said OK.
Then someone said, let's let our daughters have abortions if they want, and they won't even have to tell their parents. And we said OK.
Then some wise school board member said, since boys will be boys and they're going to do it anyway, let's give our sons all the condoms they want so they can have all the fun they desire, and we won't have to tell their parents they got them at school. And we said OK.
Then some of our top elected officials said it doesn't matter what we do in private as long as we do our jobs. Agreeing with them, we said it doesn't matter to me what anyone, including the President, does in private as long as I have a job and the economy is good.
Then someone said let's print magazines with pictures of nude women and call it wholesome, down-to-earth appreciation for the beauty of the female body. And we said OK.
And then someone else took that appreciation a step further and published pictures of nude children and then further again by making them available on the Internet. And we said OK, they're entitled to free speech.
Then the entertainment industry said, let's make TV shows and movies that promote profanity, violence, and illicit sex. Let's record music that encourages rape, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic themes. And we said it's just entertainment, it has no adverse effect, nobody takes it seriously anyway, so go right ahead.
Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.
Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."
Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.
Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.
Makes you think doesn't it......
****rant over****
Graham
>>> Edited by Graham.J on Tuesday 18th March 19:42
Hang on ... whoa mule, whoa ...
Some truth in there certainly ... also some class A horse.
September 11th did not happen because of poor discipline in American schools or because of porn.
Further, I've never heard anyone stupid enough to try and justify kiddy porn on the basis of freedom of speech.
And again BG junior would do well to look at OTHER COUNTRIES and try to learn from them. Sex and drugs and rock and roll are alive all over the West, and yet we don't have the same set of social problems as the USA (some in common, some unique to us, some unique to the USA).
Before I got to worked up about abortion and condom availability (FFS), I might have a look at the social welfare system (or total lack of it) and the availability of guns.
Some truth in there certainly ... also some class A horse.
September 11th did not happen because of poor discipline in American schools or because of porn.
Further, I've never heard anyone stupid enough to try and justify kiddy porn on the basis of freedom of speech.
And again BG junior would do well to look at OTHER COUNTRIES and try to learn from them. Sex and drugs and rock and roll are alive all over the West, and yet we don't have the same set of social problems as the USA (some in common, some unique to us, some unique to the USA).
Before I got to worked up about abortion and condom availability (FFS), I might have a look at the social welfare system (or total lack of it) and the availability of guns.
Hello, anyone home......its down to indifference and the general feeling of "oh well it was'nt me or one of my family" (go on deny it!). No one cares any more, we just want to go to work (or not as the case may be) earn enough to pay the bills, pay for the holiday and put a nice car in the garage (I hope we can all relate to that), as long as we can go to bed at night and say we survived another day then everyone else can go **** themselves. Life is too short and people are now realising that the lowely man in the street can do nothing to change the outcome.
Even the slightest poor level of customer survice is enough to wind me up but whats the point, you complain to the manager and he is some half wit on work experience etc!!! I am looking out for number one, my wife comes a close second and the rest of the family can fight it out amongst themselves.........everyone else
you know the score!!!!!!!
Even the slightest poor level of customer survice is enough to wind me up but whats the point, you complain to the manager and he is some half wit on work experience etc!!! I am looking out for number one, my wife comes a close second and the rest of the family can fight it out amongst themselves.........everyone else
you know the score!!!!!!!
I think that a lot of the points made about the decline in traditional morality and stricture stand, but I also think that you can (and preferably should) talk morality without the need for coercive religious instruments.
In fact such commentators only manage to convince me of anything when religion can be stripped away from their postulates leaving a coherent, secularly valid moral framework behind.
Are we happier or less happy now than 50 years ago when religious (and what are commonly called Victorian) values prevailed and exerted such significant influence on us that the scope for individual choice in forming an identity was very limited?
Has the potential for individuality championed by and realised through such modern phenomena as feminism and consumerism made us more or less fulfilled and secure as a society and as individuals?
Personally, for right or for wrong, I value individual liberty above all else. However, a broader appreciation of the needs of society and the compromises one must make to the behavioural expectations of said society is required - that's morality.
It's fundamentally important and it's deeply neglected. The reason for this is not the decline of religion, or the rising primacy of individual liberty, but the fact that religion is a handy didactic carrier of morality. Religion provides a context for the lessons (allegories, commandments etc) of how one should live in order to peacefully co-exist with others.
It's not impossible to teach (or learn) these important values without religion, but it is much more difficult to do because the message has to be delivered somehow and it's a message that people don't want to hear - matters of self restraint, tolerance, rights and wrongs.
Religions all seem to feature sticks and carrots. If you can make someone believe that they were born bad and have to spend their lives becoming good in order to avoid eternal flaming damnation, then they're going to listen when you provide instructions on exactly how it is they can avoid Colonel Netherworld's red hot poker being thrust down their jap's eye for all eternity.
If you can make a lot of people believe that they will reach nirvana, Valhalla, heaven or whatever for being a heroic warrior and a protector of interests then you have a powerful tool for wrong-doing and therein lies the flip-side of the religion thing.
So how do we teach children lessons that they don't want to learn and reinforce those lessons throughout their lifetimes without religion as a tool? It seems to me that there are no carrots or sticks that can be used to inculcate children - and inculcation is what's required. Doing the right thing is a bitter pill to swallow when it goes against your every instinct & no-one's going to do it unless it can be demonstrated to them that there are benefits for the individual if they do what is primarily in the interest of society rather than theirs.
In fact I'm not sure that sticks are allowed at all with kids anymore - literally or figuratively. The proverbial carrots all cost money if you let them watch ads on TV or talk to other kids.
The only carrots and sticks left for adults in the absence of religion are taxes and laws. Pay more or less tax depending on whether you comply with the behavioural preferences of our current leaders. Fall foul of the law and face loss of liberty through imprisonment or more usually by a financial penalty intended to curtail liberty more subtly
That is why we're taxed heavily, in a politically contrived manner and are overburdened with absurd legislation. The state’s taken on the role of the religious bodies, but fantasies about heaven and hell are not an option for our present generation of leaders charged with making everyone play nicely. Take all that structural bondage away though and civilization will soon fall in its wake.
So basically, we either put up with crackpot religions or some other sort of crackpots. Enter William Anthony Prodigious Liar & Georgie Warmongrificationalist Bush.
This is all the fault of humanity – boy do we suck.
In fact such commentators only manage to convince me of anything when religion can be stripped away from their postulates leaving a coherent, secularly valid moral framework behind.
Are we happier or less happy now than 50 years ago when religious (and what are commonly called Victorian) values prevailed and exerted such significant influence on us that the scope for individual choice in forming an identity was very limited?
Has the potential for individuality championed by and realised through such modern phenomena as feminism and consumerism made us more or less fulfilled and secure as a society and as individuals?
Personally, for right or for wrong, I value individual liberty above all else. However, a broader appreciation of the needs of society and the compromises one must make to the behavioural expectations of said society is required - that's morality.
It's fundamentally important and it's deeply neglected. The reason for this is not the decline of religion, or the rising primacy of individual liberty, but the fact that religion is a handy didactic carrier of morality. Religion provides a context for the lessons (allegories, commandments etc) of how one should live in order to peacefully co-exist with others.
It's not impossible to teach (or learn) these important values without religion, but it is much more difficult to do because the message has to be delivered somehow and it's a message that people don't want to hear - matters of self restraint, tolerance, rights and wrongs.
Religions all seem to feature sticks and carrots. If you can make someone believe that they were born bad and have to spend their lives becoming good in order to avoid eternal flaming damnation, then they're going to listen when you provide instructions on exactly how it is they can avoid Colonel Netherworld's red hot poker being thrust down their jap's eye for all eternity.
If you can make a lot of people believe that they will reach nirvana, Valhalla, heaven or whatever for being a heroic warrior and a protector of interests then you have a powerful tool for wrong-doing and therein lies the flip-side of the religion thing.
So how do we teach children lessons that they don't want to learn and reinforce those lessons throughout their lifetimes without religion as a tool? It seems to me that there are no carrots or sticks that can be used to inculcate children - and inculcation is what's required. Doing the right thing is a bitter pill to swallow when it goes against your every instinct & no-one's going to do it unless it can be demonstrated to them that there are benefits for the individual if they do what is primarily in the interest of society rather than theirs.
In fact I'm not sure that sticks are allowed at all with kids anymore - literally or figuratively. The proverbial carrots all cost money if you let them watch ads on TV or talk to other kids.
The only carrots and sticks left for adults in the absence of religion are taxes and laws. Pay more or less tax depending on whether you comply with the behavioural preferences of our current leaders. Fall foul of the law and face loss of liberty through imprisonment or more usually by a financial penalty intended to curtail liberty more subtly
That is why we're taxed heavily, in a politically contrived manner and are overburdened with absurd legislation. The state’s taken on the role of the religious bodies, but fantasies about heaven and hell are not an option for our present generation of leaders charged with making everyone play nicely. Take all that structural bondage away though and civilization will soon fall in its wake.
So basically, we either put up with crackpot religions or some other sort of crackpots. Enter William Anthony Prodigious Liar & Georgie Warmongrificationalist Bush.
This is all the fault of humanity – boy do we suck.
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