HIGH EMISSION CHARGES - Carrera Coupe 3.6 (and tax rip-off)
Discussion
Hi folks,
Seems DrS may have had a point after all (as made in an earlier thread, and given my recent experience of bump-thump on London's roads).
London residents with band G cars will lose their 90% discount
Vehicles causing the most pollution in central London are to face huge increases in the congestion charge, mayor Ken Livingstone has announced.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lo
The daily charge for vehicles such as Porkers (and Mercs, and BMWs, etc) is to rise to £25 from 2009 (with a view to rising before then).
Given this year's expected bonuses in the City, shouldn't matter much to that lot, but I reckon loads of PHers on this forum don't work in the City (and don't drive in to work Mon-Friday). Trouble is, if this continues (and the revenue forecast is not met), I bet the charge will be levied on Saturdays and maybe Sundays.
What say you? Does it matter? It should do if you live in the current (and expanded) charge zone because you won't get a discount! Any RBKC and Westminster resident members here wish to comment?
No wonder the US embassy refused to pay the charge!
Seems DrS may have had a point after all (as made in an earlier thread, and given my recent experience of bump-thump on London's roads).
BBC website said:
London residents with band G cars will lose their 90% discount
Vehicles causing the most pollution in central London are to face huge increases in the congestion charge, mayor Ken Livingstone has announced.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lo
The daily charge for vehicles such as Porkers (and Mercs, and BMWs, etc) is to rise to £25 from 2009 (with a view to rising before then).
Given this year's expected bonuses in the City, shouldn't matter much to that lot, but I reckon loads of PHers on this forum don't work in the City (and don't drive in to work Mon-Friday). Trouble is, if this continues (and the revenue forecast is not met), I bet the charge will be levied on Saturdays and maybe Sundays.
What say you? Does it matter? It should do if you live in the current (and expanded) charge zone because you won't get a discount! Any RBKC and Westminster resident members here wish to comment?
No wonder the US embassy refused to pay the charge!
DucatiGary said:
move out of london, simple, its a horrid place anyways.
Agreed - just another good reason not travel into the armpit of England.
I work in London in the week (not by choice frankly) and driving in simply isnt an option anyway, another tax (on top of fuel tax, speed camera tax, road tax tax.. i could go on) will mean i just bother even less with London of a weekend than i do now.
R.
That armpit of England is a major driver of the country's economy, so most people have little choice.
Plus house prices within commuting distance of London are high, and public transport costs are also very high.............
My point is this: Do you really think withdrawal to the Shires is a sustainable response (or, as has been posted elsewhere, a measured collected response that focuses on bigger polluters such as the aviation industry)?
DucatiGary, I understand cars registered after March06 fall under the plans, so those before maybe not. But again that's not the point. Just because it doesn't affect 3.4s or those registered before March 2006 does not mean it should be accepted and absorbed.
Plus house prices within commuting distance of London are high, and public transport costs are also very high.............
My point is this: Do you really think withdrawal to the Shires is a sustainable response (or, as has been posted elsewhere, a measured collected response that focuses on bigger polluters such as the aviation industry)?
DucatiGary, I understand cars registered after March06 fall under the plans, so those before maybe not. But again that's not the point. Just because it doesn't affect 3.4s or those registered before March 2006 does not mean it should be accepted and absorbed.
Edited by bcnrml on Tuesday 14th November 16:31
bcnrml said:
That armpit of England is a major driver of the country's economy, so most people have little choice.
Plus house prices within commuting distance of London are high, and public transport costs are also very high.............
My point is this: Do you really think withdrawal to the Shires is sustainable response (or, as has been posted elsewhere, a measured collected response that focuses on bigger polluters such as the aviation industry)?
Plus house prices within commuting distance of London are high, and public transport costs are also very high.............
My point is this: Do you really think withdrawal to the Shires is sustainable response (or, as has been posted elsewhere, a measured collected response that focuses on bigger polluters such as the aviation industry)?
says he whos buggered off to spain.
I still have to come to the UK, I still have to drive in London, and I love Blighty, Spain or no Spain!
Why should I not want to prevent such persecution? I still vote here, I still pay taxes here, and I want to be able to enjopy my (intended) porker in London without being hassled by such taxes!!!
Why should I not want to prevent such persecution? I still vote here, I still pay taxes here, and I want to be able to enjopy my (intended) porker in London without being hassled by such taxes!!!
bcnrml said:
That armpit of England is a major driver of the country's economy, so most people have little choice.
Plus house prices within commuting distance of London are high, and public transport costs are also very high.............
My point is this: Do you really think withdrawal to the Shires is a sustainable response (or, as has been posted elsewhere, a measured collected response that focuses on bigger polluters such as the aviation industry)?
DucatiGary, I understand cars registered after March06 fall under the plans, so those before maybe not. But again that's not the point. Just because it doesn't affect 3.4s or those registered before March 2006 does not mean it should be accepted and absorbed.
Plus house prices within commuting distance of London are high, and public transport costs are also very high.............
My point is this: Do you really think withdrawal to the Shires is a sustainable response (or, as has been posted elsewhere, a measured collected response that focuses on bigger polluters such as the aviation industry)?
DucatiGary, I understand cars registered after March06 fall under the plans, so those before maybe not. But again that's not the point. Just because it doesn't affect 3.4s or those registered before March 2006 does not mean it should be accepted and absorbed.
Edited by bcnrml on Tuesday 14th November 16:31
I would never live in London by choice, so its a moot point for me in some ways. However to answer your question - no, id gladly fight it tooth and nail, its a tax for tax's sake aimed at people the government think are rich enough to pay it largely without thinking about it, as "it doesnt matter they can obviously afford it". Its not really even a thinly veiled attempt at an ecological measure, since as you say the aviation industry amongst others represents a far greater threat to the environment. *However*, what would you have us do about it ?, i can vote against the government in question but thats all i see within my power to make a stand really - other than that, as i answered in another thread ill be moving further and further away from the centre of the country until such time as im taxed off the shores of my beloved Blighty.
I only answer that ill move away from the problem as i dont see we have much else in our armoury to draw on against a government which answers most situations by throwing another new and improved tax at us (and i do mean "us", rather than any other demographic in the UK).
R.
In principal I agree with the current congenstion charge providing the revenue raised goes directly into improved public transport to make London the Envy of Europe, but it`s a congestion charge and the last time I looked a Porsche 911 took up the same space on the road as a Vauxhall Vectra. At £8 a pop it possibly makes people think twice about driving into the charge area but it is managable. The problem is that in most cases the people going there have to go, it isn`t a matter of choice, you can`t not turn up for a meeting. The people who do have a choice are the Saturday shoppers and of course there is no charge on Saturday / Sunday / Bank holls.
Yes someone on £1.5 million a year in a BMW might be happy to pay £25 but there are plenty of people on £30-40k a year who chose to drive larger family cars. As for pollution how does a modern Porsche 911 with tight emission control fare against a 1985 VW Polo that hasn`t seen a workshop for 6 years.
If the aim is to reduce traffic in central London then a Smart car is as much of a problem as a 5 series BMW. If the aim is to generate revenue then get a small amount off everyone rather than a fortune out of a few individuals. Excluding smaller cars from the carge you will increase traffic & pollution.
Sadly most of the people affected by the congestion charge are unable to vote the mayor in or out. Ultimately all you can do is boycot businesses based within the congestion charge in the hope they move out and the relevant authorities lose their revenue. It`s times like this when I wish we were French, they know how to protest.
If you want to get people onto public transport make it a cheaper, more comfortable, quicker and safer option than the car. Don`t just shoot the fish that happen to live in the barrel.
Henry
Yes someone on £1.5 million a year in a BMW might be happy to pay £25 but there are plenty of people on £30-40k a year who chose to drive larger family cars. As for pollution how does a modern Porsche 911 with tight emission control fare against a 1985 VW Polo that hasn`t seen a workshop for 6 years.
If the aim is to reduce traffic in central London then a Smart car is as much of a problem as a 5 series BMW. If the aim is to generate revenue then get a small amount off everyone rather than a fortune out of a few individuals. Excluding smaller cars from the carge you will increase traffic & pollution.
Sadly most of the people affected by the congestion charge are unable to vote the mayor in or out. Ultimately all you can do is boycot businesses based within the congestion charge in the hope they move out and the relevant authorities lose their revenue. It`s times like this when I wish we were French, they know how to protest.
If you want to get people onto public transport make it a cheaper, more comfortable, quicker and safer option than the car. Don`t just shoot the fish that happen to live in the barrel.
Henry
Edited by henry-f on Tuesday 14th November 16:54
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Not sure yet, but the residents of my second home protest when they need to (see below). Why have we given up the ability to protest vocally? There are loads of intelligent people on this forum. We can find effective, legal ways if we want to make a difference. It brings to mind the protests of the Los Angelenos when speed cameras were mooted (IIRC). They exercised their right to break the law (speeding) and risk being caught without being snooped on!
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Yes, and if small businesses are drivers of the economy (as indeed they are), they suffer too. Note that BMW and Mercedes have pulled showrooms out of London due to their high congestion charging bill (they get charted for every car in the zone). Will OPC Chiswick survive a congestion charge on the route to Heathrow as Ken proposes? I doubt it. How much further will you have to drive to service your car (or buy one)? How much extra fuel do you burn (and pollution do you create)?
Quote
It`s times like this when I wish we were French, they know how to protest.
Agreed. See below:
Quote
My neighbours in Spain were recently banging pots and in pans protest at the recent elections. This is a well used protest method which was maintained EVERY WEEK to protest against their participation in the Iraq war. It worked.
Over there, my car is used only at weekends (good investment in public transport). Trains run until 2am on Fridays and Saturday nights. This means less pollution. Public transport is ace, cheap and I cycle everywhere if I can (including to meetings). I cannot do any of this easily in London (and cannot get anywhere on Saturdays or Sundays for the congestion - hence my suspicion that this will be extended to the weekends. Look how many 7-day bus lanes there are now, creating congestion! Madness.
Rant over.
M@verick said:
*However*, what would you have us do about it ?, i can vote against the government in question but thats all i see within my power to make a stand really
Not sure yet, but the residents of my second home protest when they need to (see below). Why have we given up the ability to protest vocally? There are loads of intelligent people on this forum. We can find effective, legal ways if we want to make a difference. It brings to mind the protests of the Los Angelenos when speed cameras were mooted (IIRC). They exercised their right to break the law (speeding) and risk being caught without being snooped on!
Quote
Henry-f said:
Sadly most of the people affected by the congestion charge are unable to vote the mayor in or out. Ultimately all you can do is boycot businesses based within the congestion charge in the hope they move out and the relevant authorities lose their revenue.
Yes, and if small businesses are drivers of the economy (as indeed they are), they suffer too. Note that BMW and Mercedes have pulled showrooms out of London due to their high congestion charging bill (they get charted for every car in the zone). Will OPC Chiswick survive a congestion charge on the route to Heathrow as Ken proposes? I doubt it. How much further will you have to drive to service your car (or buy one)? How much extra fuel do you burn (and pollution do you create)?
Quote
Henry-f said:
It`s times like this when I wish we were French, they know how to protest.
Agreed. See below:
Quote
DucatiGary said:
says he whos buggered off to spain.
My neighbours in Spain were recently banging pots and in pans protest at the recent elections. This is a well used protest method which was maintained EVERY WEEK to protest against their participation in the Iraq war. It worked.
Over there, my car is used only at weekends (good investment in public transport). Trains run until 2am on Fridays and Saturday nights. This means less pollution. Public transport is ace, cheap and I cycle everywhere if I can (including to meetings). I cannot do any of this easily in London (and cannot get anywhere on Saturdays or Sundays for the congestion - hence my suspicion that this will be extended to the weekends. Look how many 7-day bus lanes there are now, creating congestion! Madness.
Rant over.
Since no-one's mentioned it yet, what impact will this have on your residuals?
How many porkers are currently garaged and used in the London congestion charge zone?
How many of these cars (March06 onwards) will be no longer justified by their owners at an extra annual cost of £6k (roughly, £25/day, 20 days per month, 12 months per year).
Some of you thought the OPC warranty increase was high...........!
Now, let's get back to residuals. Maybe, perversely, pre-March06 registered cars will retain their value better than those registered after that date. Good news for Indies and OPCs serving the London segment with used, pre-March06 cars......
But then, Ken being Ken, the new charge will be made retrospective, or pre-March06 cars will be hit with a similar charge (say, 50-75% of the currently mooted £25/day).
How many porkers are currently garaged and used in the London congestion charge zone?
How many of these cars (March06 onwards) will be no longer justified by their owners at an extra annual cost of £6k (roughly, £25/day, 20 days per month, 12 months per year).
Some of you thought the OPC warranty increase was high...........!
Now, let's get back to residuals. Maybe, perversely, pre-March06 registered cars will retain their value better than those registered after that date. Good news for Indies and OPCs serving the London segment with used, pre-March06 cars......
But then, Ken being Ken, the new charge will be made retrospective, or pre-March06 cars will be hit with a similar charge (say, 50-75% of the currently mooted £25/day).
Edited by bcnrml on Tuesday 14th November 17:59
Edited by bcnrml on Tuesday 14th November 18:00
Being a pedantic sort of person, vehicles registered before 23rd March 2006 will continue to be in tax band F (CO2 more than 185 g/km).
Band G, to which the announcement relates, is a new band (CO2 more than 225 g/km) applicable only to vehicles registered after 23rd March 2006. Therefore you will be still able to drive your 996 3.6 in at the standard rate.
Band G, to which the announcement relates, is a new band (CO2 more than 225 g/km) applicable only to vehicles registered after 23rd March 2006. Therefore you will be still able to drive your 996 3.6 in at the standard rate.
widebody said:
Being a pedantic sort of person, vehicles registered before 23rd March 2006 will continue to be in tax band F (CO2 more than 185 g/km).
Band G, to which the announcement relates, is a new band (CO2 more than 225 g/km) applicable only to vehicles registered after 23rd March 2006. Therefore you will be still able to drive your 996 3.6 in at the standard rate.
Band G, to which the announcement relates, is a new band (CO2 more than 225 g/km) applicable only to vehicles registered after 23rd March 2006. Therefore you will be still able to drive your 996 3.6 in at the standard rate.
...thanks for the info! Even more reason not to change my car now (along with being skint
)I live in kensington and drive 2 miles to work to knightsbridge, I travel by GT2, I get to work around 7 am, the public transport at that time isn't an option as its unreliable and I need to be at my desk when the traded markets open hence I drive. I just think this £25 is a royal rip off - thats £500 a month, no way, I'll just have to wheelie down high street kensington on my ducati instead!
Thank god I don't live in London :snigger:
The obvious answer is that all Londoners go out and buy smart cars as your second/third/fourth cars, there by creating a parking hell that will make the roads even more congested and un-driveable.
Or the government could invest in a public transport system that works when the population needs it (including actually running on time) and doesn't cost an arm and a legg to user.
I am sure things have improved in the last 12 years, but when I commuted into London back in the early 90s, I could drive the 80 miles home back to Cambridgeshire quicker than some of the guys could tube/buss it to Richmond.
The obvious answer is that all Londoners go out and buy smart cars as your second/third/fourth cars, there by creating a parking hell that will make the roads even more congested and un-driveable.
Or the government could invest in a public transport system that works when the population needs it (including actually running on time) and doesn't cost an arm and a legg to user.
I am sure things have improved in the last 12 years, but when I commuted into London back in the early 90s, I could drive the 80 miles home back to Cambridgeshire quicker than some of the guys could tube/buss it to Richmond.
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