US bung Israel $10 billion
Discussion
$10 billion of Bush's war budget is going to Israel, including
WTF
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2867619.stm
$1bn (£640,000m) in direct military aid
WTF
PB,
That is such an inflammatory post it's ridiculous!
First, you are totally wrong (read WRONG) that $10bn of Bush's 'War Budget' is going to Israel, but it's certainly a catchy, inflammatory introduction to say so. Too bad it is mired in so much inaccuracy.
The US is giving Israel $1bn for military aid and $9bn in Loan Guarantees which doesn't cost the US a dime unless Israel were to default, something they have never done. These loans will be secured through US banks which will make a hefty commission and interest on these loans assisting the US economy.
As you seem totally oblivious to the workings of Int'l Diplomacy, let me explain. These monies and loan guarantees are Leverage for the US to modify Israel's behavior.
For this, we secured assurances that Israel would not escalate the current conflict should Iraq attack Israel (It should be noted that the last time SH lobbed a few scuds on Israel, they wanted to go nuclear in their retaliation, it was all the US could do to back them down).
Additionally, we will have a stronger hand in getting Israel to allow the creation of an autonomous Palestinian State and to give up the occupied territories, something Bush announced Israel must do in a statement he made this past Tuesday.
In the past 30 years, Israel's stand on these issues has cost the US and the World many times this amount in the trouble they caused or contributed to(such as Arab mistrust, '73 Oil Embargo, rise in Int'l Terrorism, etc). And, we currently pay Egypt $1.8bn and Jordan $1.1bn annually to take a moderate stance toward Israel and to come to the peace talks. If a mere $1bn one-time expenditure can finally resolve this issue, it's cheap by any standard.
If you don't like Israel, are Anti-American, or Anti-Bush, fine, that is your right. But, just say so, don't use incorrect, inflammatory information and statements to try to bolster your point of view...Jim'85TE
That is such an inflammatory post it's ridiculous!
First, you are totally wrong (read WRONG) that $10bn of Bush's 'War Budget' is going to Israel, but it's certainly a catchy, inflammatory introduction to say so. Too bad it is mired in so much inaccuracy.
The US is giving Israel $1bn for military aid and $9bn in Loan Guarantees which doesn't cost the US a dime unless Israel were to default, something they have never done. These loans will be secured through US banks which will make a hefty commission and interest on these loans assisting the US economy.
As you seem totally oblivious to the workings of Int'l Diplomacy, let me explain. These monies and loan guarantees are Leverage for the US to modify Israel's behavior.
For this, we secured assurances that Israel would not escalate the current conflict should Iraq attack Israel (It should be noted that the last time SH lobbed a few scuds on Israel, they wanted to go nuclear in their retaliation, it was all the US could do to back them down).
Additionally, we will have a stronger hand in getting Israel to allow the creation of an autonomous Palestinian State and to give up the occupied territories, something Bush announced Israel must do in a statement he made this past Tuesday.
In the past 30 years, Israel's stand on these issues has cost the US and the World many times this amount in the trouble they caused or contributed to(such as Arab mistrust, '73 Oil Embargo, rise in Int'l Terrorism, etc). And, we currently pay Egypt $1.8bn and Jordan $1.1bn annually to take a moderate stance toward Israel and to come to the peace talks. If a mere $1bn one-time expenditure can finally resolve this issue, it's cheap by any standard.
If you don't like Israel, are Anti-American, or Anti-Bush, fine, that is your right. But, just say so, don't use incorrect, inflammatory information and statements to try to bolster your point of view...Jim'85TE
donatien said: Yeah a bit rich isn't it. Bush is attacking Iraq cos they are in contravention of UN resolutions but he's happy to fund Israel, who, are, er, in contravention of various UN resolutions over the occupied territories.
Still, America knows best eh?
Hi,
Point of Information. All the UN Resolutions against Israel and the Occupied Territories are UN General Assembly Resolutions. General Assembly Resolutions are non-binding. A member state does not have to follow them.
The UN Resolutions against Iraq are Security Council Resolutions which are binding. A member state must abide by them...Jim'85TE
Sorry LotusGuy, but it is still double standards.
Yes the facts may not be reported accurately, but that doesn't change the hypocrisy of the US Government on many World situations (North Korea springs to mind, in addition to the long running Israeli situation).
I will not be entering into a debate on this.
Sparks
P.S The current British government aren't much better.
>> Edited by sparks on Friday 21st March 11:44
Yes the facts may not be reported accurately, but that doesn't change the hypocrisy of the US Government on many World situations (North Korea springs to mind, in addition to the long running Israeli situation).
I will not be entering into a debate on this.
Sparks
P.S The current British government aren't much better.
>> Edited by sparks on Friday 21st March 11:44
lotusguy said:
donatien said: Yeah a bit rich isn't it. Bush is attacking Iraq cos they are in contravention of UN resolutions but he's happy to fund Israel, who, are, er, in contravention of various UN resolutions over the occupied territories.
Still, America knows best eh?
Hi,
Point of Information. All the UN Resolutions against Israel and the Occupied Territories are UN General Assembly Resolutions. General Assembly Resolutions are non-binding. A member state does not have to follow them.
The UN Resolutions against Iraq are Security Council Resolutions which are binding. A member state must abide by them...Jim'85TE
That's fine. As long as you wipe out the greater evil first, I'm sure you'll start picking off the minnows.
Dave
Jim, thank you so much for putting me straight on this. Silly old me, thinking that this aid had been extended in violation of the Arms Control Export Act and many other provisions of US law that prohibit US military aid to countries which use these weapons for non-defensive purposes.
lotusguy said:As you seem totally oblivious to the workings of Int'l Diplomacy, let me explain.
Oh, wait... it has
www.moveon.org/technicaldifficulties/
Captain Muppet said:
lotusguy said: ...General Assembly Resolutions are non-binding. A member state does not have to follow them...
WTF is the point of a non-binding resolution?
Very good question. The UN is a forum for discussion. Not a bad thing, but limiting.
It is worth poinitng out that even if there had been the will to pass a security council resolution instructing Israel to play nice, it would have been vetoed.
Lotusguy
Israeli assault aircraft have been equipped to carry
chemical and biological weapons manufactured at a top secret institute near Tel Aviv, military sources revealed yesterday (1998).
Crews of F-16 fighters have been trained to fit an active chemical or biological weapon within minutes of receiving the command to attack, they said. The weapons are manufactured at the Institute for Biological Research in a suburb of Nes Ziona 12 miles southeast of Tel Aviv.
The plant attracted unwanted scrutiny last week when the Dutch authorities confirmed that it was the intended destination of 42 gallons of a chemical called DMMP aboard an El Al 747-200 that crashed into high-rise flats in Amsterdam six years ago, killing the four crew and 39 people on the ground.
The chemical is used in the manufacture of sarin nerve gas, and local inhabitants have complained of health problems since the crash.
The Israeli plant manufactures not only chemical and biological weapons for use in bombs, but more unusual arms as well. It supplied the poison for a bizarre attempt last year on the life of Khaled Meshal, a leader of the Hamas Islamic fundamentalist group.
Agents of Mossad, the Israeli intelligence service, sprayed a liquid into his ear as he arrived at his office in Amman, the Jordanian capital. If one of Meshal's bodyguards had not chased and caught the agents, the mysterious chemical would have caused Meshal to die within days of apparent heart failure. Instead, the institute was forced to supply an antidote when King Hussein of Jordan threatened to put the captured Israelis on trial.
Israel has accused Egypt, Libya, Syria and Iran of developing chemical and biological weapons, but has never acknowledged its own programmes to develop weapons of mass destruction.
The Jewish state signed but never ratified the chemical weapons convention, a treaty that prohibits countries from developing, producing, stockpiling or using such weapons. The Israeli programme for weapons has been an open secret for years.
edited to correct error in date.
>> Edited by elanturbo on Friday 21st March 15:11
Israeli assault aircraft have been equipped to carry
chemical and biological weapons manufactured at a top secret institute near Tel Aviv, military sources revealed yesterday (1998).
Crews of F-16 fighters have been trained to fit an active chemical or biological weapon within minutes of receiving the command to attack, they said. The weapons are manufactured at the Institute for Biological Research in a suburb of Nes Ziona 12 miles southeast of Tel Aviv.
The plant attracted unwanted scrutiny last week when the Dutch authorities confirmed that it was the intended destination of 42 gallons of a chemical called DMMP aboard an El Al 747-200 that crashed into high-rise flats in Amsterdam six years ago, killing the four crew and 39 people on the ground.
The chemical is used in the manufacture of sarin nerve gas, and local inhabitants have complained of health problems since the crash.
The Israeli plant manufactures not only chemical and biological weapons for use in bombs, but more unusual arms as well. It supplied the poison for a bizarre attempt last year on the life of Khaled Meshal, a leader of the Hamas Islamic fundamentalist group.
Agents of Mossad, the Israeli intelligence service, sprayed a liquid into his ear as he arrived at his office in Amman, the Jordanian capital. If one of Meshal's bodyguards had not chased and caught the agents, the mysterious chemical would have caused Meshal to die within days of apparent heart failure. Instead, the institute was forced to supply an antidote when King Hussein of Jordan threatened to put the captured Israelis on trial.
Israel has accused Egypt, Libya, Syria and Iran of developing chemical and biological weapons, but has never acknowledged its own programmes to develop weapons of mass destruction.
The Jewish state signed but never ratified the chemical weapons convention, a treaty that prohibits countries from developing, producing, stockpiling or using such weapons. The Israeli programme for weapons has been an open secret for years.
edited to correct error in date.
>> Edited by elanturbo on Friday 21st March 15:11
lotusguy said:
Hi,
Point of Information. All the UN Resolutions against Israel and the Occupied Territories are UN General Assembly Resolutions. General Assembly Resolutions are non-binding. A member state does not have to follow them.
The UN Resolutions against Iraq are Security Council Resolutions which are binding. A member state must abide by them...Jim'85TE
Are you sure? Please explain what say resolution 1435 is, if it isn't from the Securtiy Council? OK, this is not solely aimed at Israel but there are others that have been.
http://ods-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N02/601/58/PDF/N0260158.pdf?OpenElement
>> Edited by donatien on Friday 21st March 15:33
elanturbo said: Lotusguy,
What action do you think the USA should take over the chemical and biological weapons held and USED by Israel?
ET,
All good points to be sure.
First, let me say that Israel has become the facist state that they claim to abhore. But, they have had adequate justification in the 55 years since the World granted them Statehood. True, the Palestinians got the short end, but Israel is not reponsible for this, the British were in their division of Jordan in the 1920's. In fact, there has never been a Palestinian state. The Palestinians are really non-ethnic Jordanians who were relegated to the poorest land Jordan could find for them much as the ethnic Kurds have been in Iraq. One of the biggest reasons for Jordan's past intransigent stance on Israel has been that they do not want to have to absorb these Palestinians back into Jordan. So, they built-up the Palestinian plight in an effort to secure a separate state for them. Anyway, I digress, it's true that Israel's response to the PLO terrorism has gotten out of hand, but remember, the Israeli's have never set off a suicide bomb in a mall or a bus. The Palestinians are largely responsible for their current plight, but certainly not soley.
I think the US has been moderating in the Middle East for years. They have been buying off the Arab states to gain their acceptance of Israel, and they have built Israel up militarily to show the Arab States that Israel cannot be dismissed or eliminated. Israel's eradication is not one of the options on the table. The only option is to accept them and learn to live in peace.
But, of late, Israel has been it's own worst enemy. Having been led by a string of hard line right wingers, Israel has lost many friends and much respect around the globe including here in the US. The collective guilt felt in the West over Nazi attrocities isn't playing in today's world like it did for the past two generations.
The US is about to 'get tough' with Israel and force the issue of a separate sovreign state for the Palestinians and demand Israel's withdrawal from the West Bank and Gaza. I refer you to Geo. Bush's remarks this past Tues. which were the toughest, most demanding remarks any American President has made toward Israel. It's actually fortunate that Israel is such a large recipient of US aid, because that gives us extreme leverage to force them to modify their behavior.
It's still too soon to review the US policy toward Israel. They have guaranteed Israel's existence for 50 years, and they are going to secure peace in the region in short order. What is needed, and what the US cannot provide, is everyone's acquiesance to the fact that they all, Arab, Israeli and Palestinian must learn to live in peace. Israel has to tone down their response and surrender the occupied territories, and Arab Leaders must promote Israel's right to exist and condemn the actions of terrorists and deny them funding and safe harbor.
The US can only mediate through negotiations, aid (Israel is the number one US recipient, but Egypt and Jordan are #s 2 & 3 since becoming signatories to the Middle East Peace accords), and working their power in the UN. The rest is up to the region, acceptance and peace, or they will eventually annihilate each other. There is no third choice. Should Israel refuse to modify their views and actions, the US will desert them. Even American Jews, who are a powerful pro-Israeli lobby, are tiring of, and find it increasingly difficult to justify, Israel's behavior. But, their support for Israel strengthens each time a bomb goes off in Tel-Aviv (are you listening Arafat?)...Jim'85TE
elanturbo said: Lotusguy,
What action do you think the USA should take over the chemical and biological weapons held and USED by Israel?
ET,
Israel should be made to disarm of these just as SH (Iraq) has been. But, as Israel has them soley for defense, diplomacy is probably sufficient to get the job done. But, I agree with you that they should not posess or manufacture them...Jim'85TE
Gassing Station | General Gassing [Archive] | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff