Court summons but no NIP
Discussion
I have recently received a court summons for an aledged offence dating back to July of this year, however, I never received notification of intended prosecution or anything. As this alleded offence was so long ago, I can't actually remember whether I was in Wales on the date in question, or whether I was driving at the time, as both my and my other half can both drive my car.
What can I do about this, as I seriously can't remember who was driving, or even if we were in Wales on that date
Thanks
D
What can I do about this, as I seriously can't remember who was driving, or even if we were in Wales on that date
Thanks
D
If this is what you honestly know happened, go to court and tell them this.
If you did not receive a NIP then the charge is not valid. If you cannot remember who is driving then there is no evidence to convict of speeding anyway.
Be prepared however to get grilled in cross-examination by the CPS solicitor. However, the case should go your way unless the mags have grounds to disbelieve you.
If you did not receive a NIP then the charge is not valid. If you cannot remember who is driving then there is no evidence to convict of speeding anyway.
Be prepared however to get grilled in cross-examination by the CPS solicitor. However, the case should go your way unless the mags have grounds to disbelieve you.
justinp1 said:
Be prepared however to get grilled in cross-examination by the CPS solicitor. However, the case should go your way unless the mags have grounds to disbelieve you.
And if it's N. Wales mags there have been numerous allegations of them being 'tame'.
You might need some proper advice and representation on this one - the simple truth (I never received the NIP and I don't remember being in Wales that day) will probably just land you in trouble with unsympathetic mags, sorry to say!
Couple of things.
Was the car registered at your current address since the time of the alleged incident to now? If there was an address change and DVLA were not updated then the NOIP sent to previous address is still valid. They may only have tracked you down now when details have changed.
Were you stopped by police at the time that you can recall? If so a verbal NOIP at the time is sufficient.
Were you the registered keeper of the vehicle at the time of the incident?
Was the car registered at your current address since the time of the alleged incident to now? If there was an address change and DVLA were not updated then the NOIP sent to previous address is still valid. They may only have tracked you down now when details have changed.
Were you stopped by police at the time that you can recall? If so a verbal NOIP at the time is sufficient.
Were you the registered keeper of the vehicle at the time of the incident?
The car was registered to me at the time, however, it has since been sold (approx 3 months ago) and has been exported to Ireland. The car was definately registered to my address before that. I definately didn't get stopped by the police, otherwise I would have definately known about it and fair play, I would have been caught bang to rights, therefore 3 points thank you very much. However, the first thing I have known about this is the court summons for the incident and the "Failure to provide license" charge also. I will be speaking with a solicitor tomorrow anyway, so I might run it by him.
I was thinking of writing to the court and simply saying that I never received the NIP, and the incident was so long ago that I cannot be sure who was driving the car. Should I ask for the photo also, as this might help me remember who was actually driving. I can't be sure that I wasn't in wales, but I certainly don't know for a fact that I was. I can't remember where I was two weeks ago, let alone 6 months ago
Thanks
D
I was thinking of writing to the court and simply saying that I never received the NIP, and the incident was so long ago that I cannot be sure who was driving the car. Should I ask for the photo also, as this might help me remember who was actually driving. I can't be sure that I wasn't in wales, but I certainly don't know for a fact that I was. I can't remember where I was two weeks ago, let alone 6 months ago
Thanks
D
As long as it was registered at your current address for the period then thats fine.
Sadly if they sent a NOIP out and it has been lost in the post they will have documented the fact it was sent within the 14 days and thus will be deamed to have been served if sent 1st class post. It is down to you to PROVE otherwise.
When it comes to court things may become clearer. It may have been the guy you sold the vehicle to if you wernt in wales at the time. But the fact that it was registered in your name at the time makes that unlikely.
Although they would have sent more than one letter to the address, proving you recieved none on them untill you recieved the summons will be hard.
Ask for disclosure and you should get the paper trail and may make things clearer.
Sadly if they sent a NOIP out and it has been lost in the post they will have documented the fact it was sent within the 14 days and thus will be deamed to have been served if sent 1st class post. It is down to you to PROVE otherwise.
When it comes to court things may become clearer. It may have been the guy you sold the vehicle to if you wernt in wales at the time. But the fact that it was registered in your name at the time makes that unlikely.
Although they would have sent more than one letter to the address, proving you recieved none on them untill you recieved the summons will be hard.
Ask for disclosure and you should get the paper trail and may make things clearer.
Darrell,
Non-receipt of the initial NIP is an absolute defence against a speeding charge. The police have to serve a NOIP on the registered keeper of a vehicle within 14-days of the alleged offence. Served means delivered, and not merely posted (as some police websites contend).
If you are going to be employing a solicitor then he should be familiar with this line of defence. However, just to make it clear, if you stand up in court and swear, under oath, that you didn't receive the NOIP then the charge has no realistic prospect of success - providing you're a credible witness.
If you want any more specific information then post up here.
Non-receipt of the initial NIP is an absolute defence against a speeding charge. The police have to serve a NOIP on the registered keeper of a vehicle within 14-days of the alleged offence. Served means delivered, and not merely posted (as some police websites contend).
If you are going to be employing a solicitor then he should be familiar with this line of defence. However, just to make it clear, if you stand up in court and swear, under oath, that you didn't receive the NOIP then the charge has no realistic prospect of success - providing you're a credible witness.
If you want any more specific information then post up here.
^Slider^ said:
Sadly if they sent a NOIP out and it has been lost in the post they will have documented the fact it was sent within the 14 days and thus will be deamed to have been served if sent 1st class post. It is down to you to PROVE otherwise.
Yes, the presumption of service is rebuttable by sworn testimony to that effect.
But if it is sent by one of the approved methods so that it wil lreach the R/K within 14 days it will be deamed to be served unless he can PROVE otherwise.
Also how comes that he did not recive ANY other correspondance untill summons served that will be the hard one to prove and that fact may well negate his sorry i didnt recieve the NOIP defence. As 1 letter yeah believeable. several then nah.
Also how comes that he did not recive ANY other correspondance untill summons served that will be the hard one to prove and that fact may well negate his sorry i didnt recieve the NOIP defence. As 1 letter yeah believeable. several then nah.
Surely you can't prove a negative, isn't that impossible.
i.e I didn't sleep with that mans wife, Officer
How do you prove that something "didn't" happen
Instead, shouldn't they have to prove that they actually posted the stupid NIP in the first place. Simply having a date on a NIP isn't proof of anything is it. I can create a letter to the court and put a date of January 2006, it doesn't mean that the letter was actually sent. Surely a proof of postage would be required. This is why things should get posted as recorded delivery, so that both parties can be assured that the relevant document was actually posted and not simply forgotten at the time, and then 6 months later, they look in their records and say '...ah, we haven't had a reply from this guy, lets take him to court'
Anyway, just makes me angry that I have to prove that they haven't sent me any correspondance whatsoever.
D
i.e I didn't sleep with that mans wife, Officer
How do you prove that something "didn't" happen
Instead, shouldn't they have to prove that they actually posted the stupid NIP in the first place. Simply having a date on a NIP isn't proof of anything is it. I can create a letter to the court and put a date of January 2006, it doesn't mean that the letter was actually sent. Surely a proof of postage would be required. This is why things should get posted as recorded delivery, so that both parties can be assured that the relevant document was actually posted and not simply forgotten at the time, and then 6 months later, they look in their records and say '...ah, we haven't had a reply from this guy, lets take him to court'
Anyway, just makes me angry that I have to prove that they haven't sent me any correspondance whatsoever.
D
When a NOIP is sent the is a page that isnt sent to you but is retained on file, its a sheet with a statement attached and the person posting will state. On this day i sent a copy of this form by 1st class post.
That is proof of posting.
As demolay stated testemony is enough to counter this fact that it may be lost in post. The issue may well be, well how comes we sent 4 further letters which were not responded to?? Then you say i never recieved these either can you see how it could look to the mags??
What they may well go into is communal post boxes, who has access to your mailbox etc.
Bottom line is it will come down to is if the mags believe you never recieved any of the letters sent to you. If they dont delieve you then the non reciept of the NOIP is dead and you have to either start defending the actual charge of speeding or failing to notify of the driver S172.
The main thing i would suggest is to go about proving you were not in wales at the time of the alleged offence. If you goto court hoping to get off on the non reciept along you may not get a happy outcome. But prepare for this and defending the actual speeding and S172 and you can cover yourself.
You state that you dont recall being in wales on that date, can you prove this either way. Ultimately it may come down to yes you were driving and you are guilty of the offence, and you may need to plead guilty with mitigation for the S172.
One thing i would bear in mind is that in traffic court the mags have herd every excuse going, some legit, some just blatant lies to get off the charge, be prepared to cover all aspects.
Make sure that the car was registered at your address at the time of the offence firstly.
Ask your missus or whoever if they recall the date for any reason and if they were driving.
If you had no reason to be in wales at the time then you must have been somewhere else work maybe, shopping at the local asda, anything that proves that you were nowhere near wales.
Ask for disclosure from the CPS, that way you will see how many letters they sent and to what address, maybe there was an error on the address they sent to which would mean you couldent have recieved the letters.
Get the photo, it may not even be your car!
Ultimately if it was you then take it on the chin.
That is proof of posting.
As demolay stated testemony is enough to counter this fact that it may be lost in post. The issue may well be, well how comes we sent 4 further letters which were not responded to?? Then you say i never recieved these either can you see how it could look to the mags??
What they may well go into is communal post boxes, who has access to your mailbox etc.
Bottom line is it will come down to is if the mags believe you never recieved any of the letters sent to you. If they dont delieve you then the non reciept of the NOIP is dead and you have to either start defending the actual charge of speeding or failing to notify of the driver S172.
The main thing i would suggest is to go about proving you were not in wales at the time of the alleged offence. If you goto court hoping to get off on the non reciept along you may not get a happy outcome. But prepare for this and defending the actual speeding and S172 and you can cover yourself.
You state that you dont recall being in wales on that date, can you prove this either way. Ultimately it may come down to yes you were driving and you are guilty of the offence, and you may need to plead guilty with mitigation for the S172.
One thing i would bear in mind is that in traffic court the mags have herd every excuse going, some legit, some just blatant lies to get off the charge, be prepared to cover all aspects.
Make sure that the car was registered at your address at the time of the offence firstly.
Ask your missus or whoever if they recall the date for any reason and if they were driving.
If you had no reason to be in wales at the time then you must have been somewhere else work maybe, shopping at the local asda, anything that proves that you were nowhere near wales.
Ask for disclosure from the CPS, that way you will see how many letters they sent and to what address, maybe there was an error on the address they sent to which would mean you couldent have recieved the letters.
Get the photo, it may not even be your car!
Ultimately if it was you then take it on the chin.
Thanks for the response. I shall certainly be checking the date, etc to see whether I was in Wales. I will also try and get the photo, and as much other information as possible. Believe me, if its me then I have no problem taking it on the chin, I just don't want to own up to something that I really have no clue about until now.
Thanks again
D
Thanks again
D
^Slider^ said:
When a NOIP is sent the is a page that isnt sent to you but is retained on file, its a sheet with a statement attached and the person posting will state. On this day i sent a copy of this form by 1st class post.
That is proof of posting.
As demolay stated testemony is enough to counter this fact that it may be lost in post. The issue may well be, well how comes we sent 4 further letters which were not responded to?? Then you say i never recieved these either can you see how it could look to the mags??
What they may well go into is communal post boxes, who has access to your mailbox etc.
Bottom line is it will come down to is if the mags believe you never recieved any of the letters sent to you. If they dont delieve you then the non reciept of the NOIP is dead and you have to either start defending the actual charge of speeding or failing to notify of the driver S172.
The main thing i would suggest is to go about proving you were not in wales at the time of the alleged offence. If you goto court hoping to get off on the non reciept along you may not get a happy outcome. But prepare for this and defending the actual speeding and S172 and you can cover yourself.
You state that you dont recall being in wales on that date, can you prove this either way. Ultimately it may come down to yes you were driving and you are guilty of the offence, and you may need to plead guilty with mitigation for the S172.
One thing i would bear in mind is that in traffic court the mags have herd every excuse going, some legit, some just blatant lies to get off the charge, be prepared to cover all aspects.
Make sure that the car was registered at your address at the time of the offence firstly.
Ask your missus or whoever if they recall the date for any reason and if they were driving.
If you had no reason to be in wales at the time then you must have been somewhere else work maybe, shopping at the local asda, anything that proves that you were nowhere near wales.
Ask for disclosure from the CPS, that way you will see how many letters they sent and to what address, maybe there was an error on the address they sent to which would mean you couldent have recieved the letters.
Get the photo, it may not even be your car!
Ultimately if it was you then take it on the chin.
That is proof of posting.
As demolay stated testemony is enough to counter this fact that it may be lost in post. The issue may well be, well how comes we sent 4 further letters which were not responded to?? Then you say i never recieved these either can you see how it could look to the mags??
What they may well go into is communal post boxes, who has access to your mailbox etc.
Bottom line is it will come down to is if the mags believe you never recieved any of the letters sent to you. If they dont delieve you then the non reciept of the NOIP is dead and you have to either start defending the actual charge of speeding or failing to notify of the driver S172.
The main thing i would suggest is to go about proving you were not in wales at the time of the alleged offence. If you goto court hoping to get off on the non reciept along you may not get a happy outcome. But prepare for this and defending the actual speeding and S172 and you can cover yourself.
You state that you dont recall being in wales on that date, can you prove this either way. Ultimately it may come down to yes you were driving and you are guilty of the offence, and you may need to plead guilty with mitigation for the S172.
One thing i would bear in mind is that in traffic court the mags have herd every excuse going, some legit, some just blatant lies to get off the charge, be prepared to cover all aspects.
Make sure that the car was registered at your address at the time of the offence firstly.
Ask your missus or whoever if they recall the date for any reason and if they were driving.
If you had no reason to be in wales at the time then you must have been somewhere else work maybe, shopping at the local asda, anything that proves that you were nowhere near wales.
Ask for disclosure from the CPS, that way you will see how many letters they sent and to what address, maybe there was an error on the address they sent to which would mean you couldent have recieved the letters.
Get the photo, it may not even be your car!
Ultimately if it was you then take it on the chin.
I think that sums it up perfectly.
I have always had the belief - and also followed this through - that if you are not guilty and have nothing to hide then you have no problem coming to court to say so. If the magistrates dont believe you they will have to have reasonable grounds for doing so. Your own testimony *should* be enough, but as slider says anything you can bring with you to back up what you are saying can only help.
^Slider^ said:
But if it is sent by one of the approved methods so that it wil lreach the R/K within 14 days it will be deamed to be served unless he can PROVE otherwise.
Also how comes that he did not recive ANY other correspondance untill summons served that will be the hard one to prove and that fact may well negate his sorry i didnt recieve the NOIP defence. As 1 letter yeah believeable. several then nah.
Also how comes that he did not recive ANY other correspondance untill summons served that will be the hard one to prove and that fact may well negate his sorry i didnt recieve the NOIP defence. As 1 letter yeah believeable. several then nah.
Quick visit: busy busy busy, but cannot let that one in bold text pass by.
Slider, I can assure you, true as I am sat here, and nothing to do with NoIPs, travel permits actually, (public transport :spit: ) that we have had a number of correspondences never ever been delivered to our house even though they have been sent.
All the documentation from me to the responsible department gets there, nothing and I do mean nothing has ever got to my house.
Now having spoken to the responsible department, they have correct details, address, name, postcode and so on.
Having chased Royal Mail there has been no solution, other than when they want to send me something I personally go to County Hall and pick it up.
My nose for a scam is twitching at DVD levels considering that this dept is regularly sending out paperwork which is worth several hundred pounds per item I would suggest that someone somewhere is intercepting with intent to deceive. Catching the buggers is another matter entirely.
I repeat, just to make it clear we have not had ONE communication received from them through the post, I have personally seen their copies of the transmitted documents.
I conclude therefore that anyone can say that it is impossible for successive items to go astray but indeed it is not at all possible for the prosecution to prove that allegation beyond all reasonable doubt.
In fact, to go further, I'd even stand up in court and testify the above statement on oath.
FiF
Something doesn't add up.
The first indication is summons through the post?
Offences: Speeding?
Fail to name driver?
Fail to produce D/L ?
As pointed out onus on prosecution to prove service of NOIP in 14 days and for you to prove non receipt.
On what stated so far they do not have the signed 172 form( name driver)which gives them evidence to prove who was the driver so they cannot proceed on that one providing no admission is made/tricked out of one at Court, so that one should be out of the window.
Likewise S172 form request for drivers details made by or on behalf of Chief officer of Police and deemed to have been served if sent out by post unless the contrary can be proved. (section 2 Interpretation Act 1978 ) Offence if no reply in 28 days.
Non receipt or reply to initial letter out I thought it was duplicated so more post astray. Is your local postie on the fiddle andinterceting the Queens Mail?
Fail to produce Licence - request must have been made for this. Usually done at roadside and RT/1 issued, or request from Mags Court after summons issued and instruction to send DL to Court and not produced which would indicate other letters/summons having been sent. How come this offence. Was Statement of Facts accompanying the summons which sheds light on all this?
I'm baffled as to the fact that summons was the first indication.
Interesting to know the outcome and your sessio9n with a legal Eagle.
dvd
The first indication is summons through the post?
Offences: Speeding?
Fail to name driver?
Fail to produce D/L ?
As pointed out onus on prosecution to prove service of NOIP in 14 days and for you to prove non receipt.
On what stated so far they do not have the signed 172 form( name driver)which gives them evidence to prove who was the driver so they cannot proceed on that one providing no admission is made/tricked out of one at Court, so that one should be out of the window.
Likewise S172 form request for drivers details made by or on behalf of Chief officer of Police and deemed to have been served if sent out by post unless the contrary can be proved. (section 2 Interpretation Act 1978 ) Offence if no reply in 28 days.
Non receipt or reply to initial letter out I thought it was duplicated so more post astray. Is your local postie on the fiddle andinterceting the Queens Mail?
Fail to produce Licence - request must have been made for this. Usually done at roadside and RT/1 issued, or request from Mags Court after summons issued and instruction to send DL to Court and not produced which would indicate other letters/summons having been sent. How come this offence. Was Statement of Facts accompanying the summons which sheds light on all this?
I'm baffled as to the fact that summons was the first indication.
Interesting to know the outcome and your sessio9n with a legal Eagle.
dvd
Dwight VanDriver said:
Likewise S172 form request for drivers details made by or on behalf of Chief officer of Police and deemed to have been served if sent out by post unless the contrary can be proved. (section 2 Interpretation Act 1978 ) Offence if no reply in 28 days.
Section 7 I think you'll find, DVD.
Darrell, you're absolutely correct about trying to prove a negative. The police will assert that the NIP was sent out, and that it has been 'served'. However, the presumption of service is rebuttable by sworn testimony to the contrary. In other words you "prove the contrary" as per s.1(3) of the Road Traffic Offenders Act:
(3) The requirement of subsection (1) above shall in every case be deemed to have been complied with unless and until the contrary is proved.
How can the police/CPS prove it was delivered if it was sent by first class mail? They can't. The only way to ensure service of NIPs is to send them by recorded delivery. They choose not to do this, doubtlessly because it'd hit the funds too hard (like they don't earn enough already!).
Hope this helps.
Flat in Fifth said:
^Slider^ said:
But if it is sent by one of the approved methods so that it wil lreach the R/K within 14 days it will be deamed to be served unless he can PROVE otherwise.
Also how comes that he did not recive ANY other correspondance untill summons served that will be the hard one to prove and that fact may well negate his sorry i didnt recieve the NOIP defence. As 1 letter yeah believeable. several then nah.
Also how comes that he did not recive ANY other correspondance untill summons served that will be the hard one to prove and that fact may well negate his sorry i didnt recieve the NOIP defence. As 1 letter yeah believeable. several then nah.
Quick visit: busy busy busy, but cannot let that one in bold text pass by.
Slider, I can assure you, true as I am sat here, and nothing to do with NoIPs, travel permits actually, (public transport :spit: ) that we have had a number of correspondences never ever been delivered to our house even though they have been sent.
All the documentation from me to the responsible department gets there, nothing and I do mean nothing has ever got to my house.
Now having spoken to the responsible department, they have correct details, address, name, postcode and so on.
Having chased Royal Mail there has been no solution, other than when they want to send me something I personally go to County Hall and pick it up.
My nose for a scam is twitching at DVD levels considering that this dept is regularly sending out paperwork which is worth several hundred pounds per item I would suggest that someone somewhere is intercepting with intent to deceive. Catching the buggers is another matter entirely.
I repeat, just to make it clear we have not had ONE communication received from them through the post, I have personally seen their copies of the transmitted documents.
I conclude therefore that anyone can say that it is impossible for successive items to go astray but indeed it is not at all possible for the prosecution to prove that allegation beyond all reasonable doubt.
In fact, to go further, I'd even stand up in court and testify the above statement on oath.
FiF
FiF,
Not disputing its doesnt happen. Just another angle as to if people use it as an excuse regularly in court when its not true, then the chances of someone who is genuine being believed are considerably lower!
I appreciate Royal Mail loose alot of mail i was just playing devils advocate. I guess you would have to hope the mags have gone through the same thing to be believeable.
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