Property developers--Timber Frames?
Discussion
For lots of highly technical reasons that I really can't be bothered explaining in detail. They can offer economic advantages if speed of build is critical and yes, they can be thermally very efficient, but there are lots of downsides, too.
The biggest potential advantage is economy of mass production, so you need to ask yourself why the country's high volume housebuilders still favour traditional construction.
The biggest potential advantage is economy of mass production, so you need to ask yourself why the country's high volume housebuilders still favour traditional construction.
Sam_68 said:
For lots of highly technical reasons that I really can't be bothered explaining in detail. They can offer economic advantages if speed of build is critical and yes, they can be thermally very efficient, but there are lots of downsides, too.
The biggest potential advantage is economy of mass production, so you need to ask yourself why the country's high volume housebuilders still favour traditional construction.
Getting rather hard to achieve good SAP ratings with masonry, though, what with Part L and the growing importance of Ecohomes ratings by specifiers and housing associations. The latter also get more funding for more eco-friendly, sustainable housing. The biggest potential advantage is economy of mass production, so you need to ask yourself why the country's high volume housebuilders still favour traditional construction.
The major downside with timber frame construction is poor education of site operatives; eg not understanding the importance of the vapour barrier. As a building material, wood is very good. It just needs to be allowed to breath.
Sam_68 said:
For lots of highly technical reasons that I really can't be bothered explaining in detail. They can offer economic advantages if speed of build is critical and yes, they can be thermally very efficient, but there are lots of downsides, too.
The biggest potential advantage is economy of mass production, so you need to ask yourself why the country's high volume housebuilders still favour traditional construction.
The biggest potential advantage is economy of mass production, so you need to ask yourself why the country's high volume housebuilders still favour traditional construction.
Please explain in detail!! I'm here to learn!! My current developments (very small ones!!) are masonry construction. I'm thinking of doin a refurb in the Alps and was wondering whether pre-fab timber & SIP would be a good idea. Though not sure if the local builders will be keen on it.
rsvmilly said:
Getting rather hard to achieve good SAP ratings with masonry, though, what with Part L and the growing importance of Ecohomes ratings by specifiers and housing associations. The latter also get more funding for more eco-friendly, sustainable housing.
...though we have found that the economics still favour traditional construction up to a 'Very Good' rating under the latest EcoHomes standards. It is only when you need an 'Excellent' rating under EcoHomes that you have little alternative but to use timber frame. rsvmilly said:
The major downside with timber frame construction is poor education of site operatives; eg not understanding the importance of the vapour barrier. As a building material, wood is very good. It just needs to be allowed to breath.
Also quality of timber, ease of design modification, customer resistance, ease of later extension/structural modification, fire integrity (with consequent insurance implications), poor education of homeowners (DIY freaks don't realise that you can't just drill a hole or form an opening without compromising the integrity of the vapour barrier or sturctural frame), structural noise (they can creak under wind loads), structural lifespan, etc, etc.
They are also, surprisingly, more expensive to build than traditional construction where speed of build is not an issue...they really only stack up if you've got to have a very good SAP rating, or if there are serious financial advantages to a fast build (eg. when you are paying interest on the land and have a buy-to-let landlord or Housing Association waiting to pay you lots of money as soon as a large number of dwellings are completed).
anonymous said:
[redacted]
That's because there's still more of a feeding frenzy amongst housebuyers in the South East. In the North of England, the shortage of housing isn't quite so acute, so buyers tend to be a bit more selective. In the South East, you can sell a cardboard box if it's in the right location... the high land costs and faster turnover tips the economics slightly more in the direction of timber frame.
Don't get me wrong... we use timber frame where the economic circumstances favour it (usually for apartments or Affordable Housing), but you'd never get me to buy one myself. They're the housebuilding equivalent of the Fiat Panda; characterless, flimsy, disposable, but cheap to run.
But then what we generally mean when we are talking about timber frame these days is completely different to the Medieval/Oakwrights type houses. Both the materials and the construction techniques are very different indeed, with different objectives... modern timber frame is effectively a loadbearing structure of glorified timber stud walls, replacing the inner leaf of masonry, with a brickwork outer leaf. There is rather a dramatic difference in the longevity 9" square sections of seasoned oak versus that of kiln-dried 4"x1" Scandinavian softwood, too!
Sam_68 said:
But then what we generally mean when we are talking about timber frame these days is completely different to the Medieval/Oakwrights type houses. Both the materials and the construction techniques are very different indeed, with different objectives... modern timber frame is effectively a loadbearing structure of glorified timber stud walls, replacing the inner leaf of masonry, with a brickwork outer leaf. There is rather a dramatic difference in the longevity 9" square sections of seasoned oak versus that of kiln-dried 4"x1" Scandinavian softwood, too!
I think you've experienced some very ropey frames if you find them creaking under wind loads. That just means there is insufficient, or poorly fixed outer board. It is not preventing racking. Or maybe it is the 4"x1" your framer is using
Again, it is back to the quality control. Masonry is very forgiving of bad workmanship. I'm sure you already realise that timber frame isn't.
On the quality of timber aspect, I've been around Norwegian timber window and door manufacturers and I can assure you that the quality timber is available - if you don't mind paying for it.
I personally prefer the solidity of masonry construction but there is no doubt that timber frame is gaining momentum. If it is put up properly then there is no reason why it won't last as long as brick and block.
It is far more ecological than traditional construction. It gives a lighter structure, which means smaller foundations, which in turn means less cart-away and landfilling. The timber itself can be easily replaced if it is sourced from renewable forests and carries FFC certification. It can achieve much better insulation than masonry, has less thermal inertia and therefore requires less heating, and is quicker to respond to temp changes.
You are correct that the cost of a timber frame structure is more than a masonry. The only way you can make that pay is to put them up quickly to minimise your prelims. I've found that can make timber frame uneconomical on small sites.
The planning of the project is very much brought forward, too, with the long lead-ins of the frames. Details can't be figured on site. They need to be considered in advance.
A piece of trivia; Did you know that the majority of the developed world live in timber framed houses? I gather much of new housing in Scotland is timber framed. Certainly, most of Scandinavia is, as is the USA. The UK are very much the oddballs in preferring masonry.
Sam_68 said:
But then what we generally mean when we are talking about timber frame these days is completely different to the Medieval/Oakwrights type houses. Both the materials and the construction techniques are very different indeed, with different objectives... modern timber frame is effectively a loadbearing structure of glorified timber stud walls, replacing the inner leaf of masonry, with a brickwork outer leaf. There is rather a dramatic difference in the longevity 9" square sections of seasoned oak versus that of kiln-dried 4"x1" Scandinavian softwood, too!
Think this is the most important post in this thread. It's no good saying 'timberframe houses are crap' - that's like saying 'cars are crap' when you meant 'Fiat Pandas are crap'.
Have you looked at Scandia Hus? Friend has developed several of them and they are NOTHING like 4"x1" softwood houses. large section structural timbers, excellently formed give a really solid feel. I was looking at having one myself but couldn't find a plot of land in the right area.
Well worth a look IMO.
Edited by Davi on Tuesday 5th December 08:59
Davi said:
rsvmilly said:
They are definitely not cheap, though.
No definitely not cheap, but having seen one go up, and comparing it to some of the 'other' timber frames going up in the same local, I think the %age extra quality far outweighs the %age extra cost.
I think we are getting to the crux of the matter, here. As rsvmilly has explained, even for the cheaper types of timber frame, the economic case for them is far from clear-cut. Certainly, the economics stack up in certain circumstances, but the cost benefit compared to traditional construction is not massive.
High quality timber frame systems are available, but they cost a lot more. In this case, one of the major benefits to a developer is lost... let's be honest, most of us are interested in bottom-line profit, so what's the point of using an expensive timber frame if traditional construction can give the same quality for less money?
There is a reason that Scandinavia, Canada etc. use a lot of timber frame construction... they have a lot of trees just waiting to be chopped down and not nearly so much readily accessible clay to make bricks.
Point very much taken - I'll have to ask my friend why he choses them, as I know he wouldn't unless they made better economical sense. Maybe it's because of his skill sets and what he can achieve without employing others? he's retired from big scale development, does a few a year only now - though he still seems to make a bloomin fortune. Interesting
I have nothing against wood as a consrtuction material but having looked closely at some developments during the course of construction I would never buy a timber framed house from any of the major housebuilders. Quality control is non-existent and most of the ones I saw were held together with carefully positioned six inch nails and newspaper used as packing to fill gaps between frame sections.
As soon as you drill through the wall to fix up a shelf or to hang a hook you have disturbed the moisture barrier and from there everything is downhill
You also have to factor in the fact that modern wood does not have the quality of fifty or a hundred years ago. Trees in a managed woodland are cut relatively young and hence are softer than more mature specimens. They can also be forced to a certain extent which means they don't have the density of older wood.
You also have to remember that not all woods are equal. Douglas fir is harder than some hardwoods (as four hours with a belt sander, 40 gauge belts and some VERY aching arms testified recently) and in comparison basic scotia pine has the strength and durability of cheese.
As soon as you drill through the wall to fix up a shelf or to hang a hook you have disturbed the moisture barrier and from there everything is downhill
You also have to factor in the fact that modern wood does not have the quality of fifty or a hundred years ago. Trees in a managed woodland are cut relatively young and hence are softer than more mature specimens. They can also be forced to a certain extent which means they don't have the density of older wood.
You also have to remember that not all woods are equal. Douglas fir is harder than some hardwoods (as four hours with a belt sander, 40 gauge belts and some VERY aching arms testified recently) and in comparison basic scotia pine has the strength and durability of cheese.
Timber Frame is like most other things, ie fine if you do it right. At one time you couldn't get a mortgage on a house that wasn't built of bricks and mortar and there is a hangover from that era. Also the famous TV programme about Barratt Homes.
I used a company called Snow to supply/erect a rooftop office in Central London, and they were first class, ie economical solid and fast in challenging circumstances. I would need to check their address again and get back to you, but equally you may find their details on the Internet.
Whatever you do, use a reputable company with a track record, not Bertie Bodgit.
I used a company called Snow to supply/erect a rooftop office in Central London, and they were first class, ie economical solid and fast in challenging circumstances. I would need to check their address again and get back to you, but equally you may find their details on the Internet.
Whatever you do, use a reputable company with a track record, not Bertie Bodgit.
I and others I know have used these chaps in the past, recommended.
www.neatwoodhomes.co.uk
Good luck with your build.
www.neatwoodhomes.co.uk
Good luck with your build.
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