Intercooler placement...
Discussion
Right.
Currently my car is like the far left diagram, no intercooler, with just air-con rad and water rad right across the front and top to bottom. The intercooled model (406 Hdi110) has an intercooler which fits vertically down next to a narrower but thicker radiator.
What I don't know though, is if these intercooled models also use a narrower air-con condensing radiator or not. I've read that blocking direct airflow to them is a bad idea either way, being quite dependant upon air-flow (hence fans coming on with air-con, and not working if fans have failed)...
So, does anyone know if they have a narrower air-con radiator, or alternatively, is there a significant issue placing an intercooler behind an air-con condenser? Is it imperative that the intercooler gets 1st hand flow as it were?
I can source a radiator from such a model (hdi110) easily, along with most of the piping and hoses, and adapat the odd pipe for it all to fit, it's just the air-con condenser I'm having issues with. I haven't managed to find an owner who can tell me what it's like!
Any help/ideas/advice much appreciated.
Cheers
Dave
Currently my car is like the far left diagram, no intercooler, with just air-con rad and water rad right across the front and top to bottom. The intercooled model (406 Hdi110) has an intercooler which fits vertically down next to a narrower but thicker radiator.
What I don't know though, is if these intercooled models also use a narrower air-con condensing radiator or not. I've read that blocking direct airflow to them is a bad idea either way, being quite dependant upon air-flow (hence fans coming on with air-con, and not working if fans have failed)...
So, does anyone know if they have a narrower air-con radiator, or alternatively, is there a significant issue placing an intercooler behind an air-con condenser? Is it imperative that the intercooler gets 1st hand flow as it were?
I can source a radiator from such a model (hdi110) easily, along with most of the piping and hoses, and adapat the odd pipe for it all to fit, it's just the air-con condenser I'm having issues with. I haven't managed to find an owner who can tell me what it's like!
Any help/ideas/advice much appreciated.
Cheers
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Monday 4th December 17:12
I can go infront, but the Hdi110 piping (from turbo and intake manifold) kinda point towards the top and bottom areas of where the intercooler would sit, so it makes sense to have an intercooler sit vertically by the side of the radiator...
I could go infront, but it means ALOT more effort with more custom piping, and then sending the pipes under the front sub-frame (close to floor, ish), and then I'd have to fit slimline fans. I think I could intercool my car with Hdi110 bits for ~ £150, but going custom might hit £300+
Current temps are sky high already, no intercooler. I think even an intercooler made of lego behind the current water radiator would cool the air
Just a flight of fancy really, if the intercooler on those specific models is behind the air-con condenser, or I can get away with it considering my systems existing lack of ANY cooling, then I'll just copy it. Otherwise it'd be a new Hdi110 spec air-con condenser too and much more effort (re-gassing etc), so a custom route would probably work out better...
Dave
I could go infront, but it means ALOT more effort with more custom piping, and then sending the pipes under the front sub-frame (close to floor, ish), and then I'd have to fit slimline fans. I think I could intercool my car with Hdi110 bits for ~ £150, but going custom might hit £300+
Current temps are sky high already, no intercooler. I think even an intercooler made of lego behind the current water radiator would cool the air
Just a flight of fancy really, if the intercooler on those specific models is behind the air-con condenser, or I can get away with it considering my systems existing lack of ANY cooling, then I'll just copy it. Otherwise it'd be a new Hdi110 spec air-con condenser too and much more effort (re-gassing etc), so a custom route would probably work out better...
Dave
I don't know how hot the Air con rad gets, but the colder the better for turbos, BUT if you go sticking one infront of the other then you may end up with little airflow getting to the Rad.
Forge have an intercooler of mine (they were going to make me n alloy one) Or they did have one, I got a Xantia turbo Petrol, and the intercooler and rad are the same size, but I don't have air con, can you get a half size air con one and a half size intercooler and put one above the other?
Forge have an intercooler of mine (they were going to make me n alloy one) Or they did have one, I got a Xantia turbo Petrol, and the intercooler and rad are the same size, but I don't have air con, can you get a half size air con one and a half size intercooler and put one above the other?
Would the 307 system be similar to the 306? 90 and 110 models are available so you may be able to see the difference between the 2.
I know a friend who had issues on a company 307 hdi 90 and it kept blowing boost pipes off, it was when he had the 110 model later we realised the 90 came without an intercooler.
I know a friend who had issues on a company 307 hdi 90 and it kept blowing boost pipes off, it was when he had the 110 model later we realised the 90 came without an intercooler.
combemarshal said:
I don't know how hot the Air con rad gets, but the colder the better for turbos, BUT if you go sticking one infront of the other then you may end up with little airflow getting to the Rad.
Forge have an intercooler of mine (they were going to make me n alloy one) Or they did have one, I got a Xantia turbo Petrol, and the intercooler and rad are the same size, but I don't have air con, can you get a half size air con one and a half size intercooler and put one above the other?
Forge have an intercooler of mine (they were going to make me n alloy one) Or they did have one, I got a Xantia turbo Petrol, and the intercooler and rad are the same size, but I don't have air con, can you get a half size air con one and a half size intercooler and put one above the other?
Mine has aircon and it looks like the condenser is sat between rad and intercooler.
If you can get an intercooler made for you they can be had with a less dense core so they don't restrict air flow too much - this will probably be OK at the front. If you use an OEM intercooler you might find that it restricts the air flow too much if you place it in front of the others.
Hmmm, sounds like OEM FMIC applications use specific types of core then, maybe a low-density but large one to reduce restriction for the rest of the radiators behind it.
I took a look at a new 207 Hdi and the intercooler sits front on to the air flow, almost to the side of the rad/aircon package of rads. I'll have to take a trip to the dreaded Peugeot dealers and pretend to be interested in a 406 or 307 Hdi110 to see how they handle the FMIC
Did notice actually, the pre-facelift Hdi110 406 uses a unique setup to ALL the other DW10 based FMIC setups, on the offside front, not the nearside, but I've only ever seen ONE on autotrader and it was miles away... might have to go pester the parts guy at Peugeot for an hour one Saturday morning and look at his screen
Thanks for the ideas so far. Sounds like I'm not best obscuring the air-con rad too much without knowing it's demands, and I don't like the idea of sending pipes under the front sub-frame. Another option is loose the air-con, but reversion to standard if/when I sell it would be near impossible...
Dave
I took a look at a new 207 Hdi and the intercooler sits front on to the air flow, almost to the side of the rad/aircon package of rads. I'll have to take a trip to the dreaded Peugeot dealers and pretend to be interested in a 406 or 307 Hdi110 to see how they handle the FMIC
Did notice actually, the pre-facelift Hdi110 406 uses a unique setup to ALL the other DW10 based FMIC setups, on the offside front, not the nearside, but I've only ever seen ONE on autotrader and it was miles away... might have to go pester the parts guy at Peugeot for an hour one Saturday morning and look at his screen
Thanks for the ideas so far. Sounds like I'm not best obscuring the air-con rad too much without knowing it's demands, and I don't like the idea of sending pipes under the front sub-frame. Another option is loose the air-con, but reversion to standard if/when I sell it would be near impossible...
Dave
You want the intercooler right in the air stream, if in front of the A/c rad and water rad, stick a bloody great fan on it, theres probably an ideal one on the a/c any way. use a couple of them! The cooler the inlet charge means denser air, means more fuel means more grunt!! Volvo 760 set up is intercooler(like a full sized radiator)in front of the a/c condenser in front of the coolant rad. big 30Amp leccy fan in front and engine driven jobbie at the back. works great
Mark
Mark
i would go for the intercooler right in the front! have you thouhgt about mounting it more "in" the bumper so there is still lots of room?? also might be worth looking into a custom rad thats as thick (if not thinker) than the intercooled versions rad but the same dimensions as the none intercooled version?!?!?!
have a work with the likes of Allisport (www.allisport.com), a.h. fabrications (www.ahfabrications.co.uk), or any other ally fabricators in mags (try the ford mag as i think there are loads in there!!). these guys might havbe an idea of whats best for you! also they might beable to help with a combined intercooler & rad setup that meats your needs!
hope this helps some Chris
have a work with the likes of Allisport (www.allisport.com), a.h. fabrications (www.ahfabrications.co.uk), or any other ally fabricators in mags (try the ford mag as i think there are loads in there!!). these guys might havbe an idea of whats best for you! also they might beable to help with a combined intercooler & rad setup that meats your needs!
hope this helps some Chris
Don't mind me, going round in circles
Anyone hear of these people? THS?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Water-to-Air-Tu
Any of the chargecooler guru's know if the tabulated data there is any good? For my 2.0 derv app I can't see that cooler being all that bad!? I know it's a single core with a single water cross-over, but I guess you optimise that with the flow rate of water vs your CFM??
Thanks
Dave
Anyone hear of these people? THS?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Water-to-Air-Tu
Any of the chargecooler guru's know if the tabulated data there is any good? For my 2.0 derv app I can't see that cooler being all that bad!? I know it's a single core with a single water cross-over, but I guess you optimise that with the flow rate of water vs your CFM??
Thanks
Dave
hmmmmm id try and stick with a Air 2 air for simplicity reasons!
A2W (air to water) is great for drag racing where you can use ice to REALLY get the inlet temps right down. but it only lasts 10secopnds before you have hot water (on V8 twin turbos!)! and if you are going to use them for road use, and give them some stick, your going to need a BIG pre rad (the water rasiator for the chargecooler). if you dont you will find that inlet temps soon rise.
A2W's are good if packaging of an normal intercooler in going to be very difficult or where flow numbers mean you need a very think (and therefore unefficent) core is needed.
how bis is the air con rad?? can you not relocate that tonear the headlights somewehre? then you can have a nice big intercooler with you stock rad!
thanks Chris.
A2W (air to water) is great for drag racing where you can use ice to REALLY get the inlet temps right down. but it only lasts 10secopnds before you have hot water (on V8 twin turbos!)! and if you are going to use them for road use, and give them some stick, your going to need a BIG pre rad (the water rasiator for the chargecooler). if you dont you will find that inlet temps soon rise.
A2W's are good if packaging of an normal intercooler in going to be very difficult or where flow numbers mean you need a very think (and therefore unefficent) core is needed.
how bis is the air con rad?? can you not relocate that tonear the headlights somewehre? then you can have a nice big intercooler with you stock rad!
thanks Chris.
Ok, after much deliberation I've ended up buying the Hdi110 406 hoses and intercooler...
Since it won't fit properly, I'll be making it fit.
My issue is
The far right setup is the only real option without huge radiator mods and all that.
Has anyone got any ideas on the best practice for ducting?
My simple obvious idea is to make a wide flat duct into the under-car airflow as far back as possible (so it doesn't hit speed bumps and suck in rabbits etc), then bend it up behind the radiator and then sealed onto the face of the IC so there is no pressure leak and flow is assured.
Has anyone seen any production cars with similar, or any experience with this type of duct? I think I could mock it up and then find some nice person to make a carbon reinforced resin duct to sit there... or if it's too much, just a GRP one...
Am I asking for trouble with the intake opening being smaller than the IC frontal area. The intercooler is quite "deep" so is pressure drop across the matrix an issue? Back mounting fans a worthwhile idea?
Just bouncing ideas around. Bought the bits, want to fit them sooner rather than later, but getting the most from them is key so I can dial up the fuelling
Dave
Since it won't fit properly, I'll be making it fit.
My issue is
The far right setup is the only real option without huge radiator mods and all that.
Has anyone got any ideas on the best practice for ducting?
My simple obvious idea is to make a wide flat duct into the under-car airflow as far back as possible (so it doesn't hit speed bumps and suck in rabbits etc), then bend it up behind the radiator and then sealed onto the face of the IC so there is no pressure leak and flow is assured.
Has anyone seen any production cars with similar, or any experience with this type of duct? I think I could mock it up and then find some nice person to make a carbon reinforced resin duct to sit there... or if it's too much, just a GRP one...
Am I asking for trouble with the intake opening being smaller than the IC frontal area. The intercooler is quite "deep" so is pressure drop across the matrix an issue? Back mounting fans a worthwhile idea?
Just bouncing ideas around. Bought the bits, want to fit them sooner rather than later, but getting the most from them is key so I can dial up the fuelling
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Tuesday 20th February 17:01
just a quick thought, but is there much room under the front end???
i ask coss a few of the US V8 turbo guys run they intercoolers flat! stick some kind of air dam at the back of the intercooler to force air up through the cores and a fan or two to pull the air through. they have had some good results!
also i thtink that is what some of the RX7 guys do, but they mount them high up rather than underneath.
thanks Chris.
i ask coss a few of the US V8 turbo guys run they intercoolers flat! stick some kind of air dam at the back of the intercooler to force air up through the cores and a fan or two to pull the air through. they have had some good results!
also i thtink that is what some of the RX7 guys do, but they mount them high up rather than underneath.
thanks Chris.
So there are options that work, you've just got to work at them
Top mount seems the second most common, it's just piping it in. Everything would be custom = time/expertise I don't have or would have to pay £££ to source!
FMIC is out of the question really. So mainly it's an effective behind rad array setup...
Low and flat sounds good, would be tidier and with one custom pipe could perhaps pipe back round to the back to keep the engine totally stock looking from the top!
Parts are in the post anyway, so touch wood they are the right ones and all in good order, then I can see where they might go. Already been told they don't fit exactly but don't mind chopping and bodging
Now to break to the insurers that my car might have an intercooler and almost double the power shortly
Dave
Top mount seems the second most common, it's just piping it in. Everything would be custom = time/expertise I don't have or would have to pay £££ to source!
FMIC is out of the question really. So mainly it's an effective behind rad array setup...
Low and flat sounds good, would be tidier and with one custom pipe could perhaps pipe back round to the back to keep the engine totally stock looking from the top!
Parts are in the post anyway, so touch wood they are the right ones and all in good order, then I can see where they might go. Already been told they don't fit exactly but don't mind chopping and bodging
Now to break to the insurers that my car might have an intercooler and almost double the power shortly
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Wednesday 21st February 09:04
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