Caterham Story - BBC4 now!
Discussion
Well... so will we ever see a replacement for the Caterham 7? Doesn't look like it, does it? I thought the guy at the end (Reynard designer) had it right when he said 'If Caterham don't do it, someone else will...' So who is that someone else? I don't think it's Ariel, or Noble, so who will it be?
I think that they seem in a bit of a quandry (sp?). On the one hand they need a new car to survive, but on the other hand it could be the development process (and the costs) that may indeed kill the company off if it does not go well.
Difficult one....
Just one thing from the program though. They mentioned that it cost them £300,000.00 to develop the 21, which mainly consisted of a new body wrapped over a 7. This seems like a lot of money does it not? From what I understand TVR keep the cost of body development to a minimum with there process of laying up the moulds for the new body directly of the designers model. Am I over simplifiying this process or got my figures incorrect?
Anyway, good luck, they are still a great car.
Lake
Difficult one....
Just one thing from the program though. They mentioned that it cost them £300,000.00 to develop the 21, which mainly consisted of a new body wrapped over a 7. This seems like a lot of money does it not? From what I understand TVR keep the cost of body development to a minimum with there process of laying up the moulds for the new body directly of the designers model. Am I over simplifiying this process or got my figures incorrect?
Anyway, good luck, they are still a great car.
Lake
They should build a mid engine alternative to the 7 with similar classic styling. They could use the Subaru flat4 engine to give a low centre of gravity and an interesting sound 
They are never going to be able to compete with mainstream manufacturers - the sort of people who buy Caterhams aren't interested in mass market sportscars anyway. There have been lots of mid engine track day type cars launched recently, but they all look fairly similar and have bike engines. I want to see a mid mounted longitudinal car engined version, something like a Ginetta G12 maybe?
They are never going to be able to compete with mainstream manufacturers - the sort of people who buy Caterhams aren't interested in mass market sportscars anyway. There have been lots of mid engine track day type cars launched recently, but they all look fairly similar and have bike engines. I want to see a mid mounted longitudinal car engined version, something like a Ginetta G12 maybe?
Very interesting programme. Just watched it via Tivo. Think caterham are being short sighted and they should be thinking of a new car now. At the moment they don't even go for the Bike engined car route (only one supplier will do it for you).
IMHO Westfield, MK, CorumLM etc. are all more forward thinking. I believe if they went for a Le-mans style road legal race car look they would have a winner. Plenty of room for development (eg roofed versions and so forth) still in the spirit of light-weight high fun sports cars.
IMHO Westfield, MK, CorumLM etc. are all more forward thinking. I believe if they went for a Le-mans style road legal race car look they would have a winner. Plenty of room for development (eg roofed versions and so forth) still in the spirit of light-weight high fun sports cars.
There is a lot of debate on this programme over on the Lotus 7 Club site (no surprises there then).
Caterham do have to consider their options for the future, It would prove very difficult for them to produce a brand new car. It's something they have never done in their 30 year history of building the 7. Even the 21 was a 7 with streamined bodywork - and it failed.
I actually do not think that the Seven will be legislated off the road. Since 1973 many changes have been made to the car to keep it legal and I'm sure in ten years time new 7s will still be in production. Also, don't forget that most of their copmpetitors (Westfield, Dax etc) will have to comply with any new regulations too so their future projects will also have to bear these things in mind.
I would not put too much pass on Reynard's assessment of market conditions. After all, they've since gone bust. Caterham Cars have survived as a viable business since 1959 or so.
Pure track day cars will always be a very minor component of any low volume car producers' output. I wonder how many bike engined Westfields or XR2s have been sold compared to total Westfield production over the past 12 months. Producing such extreme versions of your car mainly serves as s promotional tool for your more mainstream product.
Caterham do have to consider their options for the future, It would prove very difficult for them to produce a brand new car. It's something they have never done in their 30 year history of building the 7. Even the 21 was a 7 with streamined bodywork - and it failed.
I actually do not think that the Seven will be legislated off the road. Since 1973 many changes have been made to the car to keep it legal and I'm sure in ten years time new 7s will still be in production. Also, don't forget that most of their copmpetitors (Westfield, Dax etc) will have to comply with any new regulations too so their future projects will also have to bear these things in mind.
I would not put too much pass on Reynard's assessment of market conditions. After all, they've since gone bust. Caterham Cars have survived as a viable business since 1959 or so.
Pure track day cars will always be a very minor component of any low volume car producers' output. I wonder how many bike engined Westfields or XR2s have been sold compared to total Westfield production over the past 12 months. Producing such extreme versions of your car mainly serves as s promotional tool for your more mainstream product.
Whilst I agree that this car wil be in production in 10 years time. I feel that Caterham may not. When I spoke to the compnay at Donnington they struck me as very "stick in the mud". The chap spent more time critisizing the competition rather than talking about Caterham. (always a bad sign IMHO)
Unlike Morgan, Caterham have a lot of competetion of the same style car. Kit cars and production versions are availble and are cheaper than Caterham. In performance terms I don't believe there is much difference between a Caterham a Dax or a Westfield. But in prices there is a significant difference. Eg superlight starts at £23,000 built cars Westfield are £18k. Full kits at £13k for Westfield and £21k for Caterham. As the programme showed one of the biggest rivals is the Elise and you can get a lot of that car for £20k now days.
The biggest problem with the 21 IMHO was that it looked like a comfort car and wasn't. If they'd produced a motorsport style car rather than a "retro look slower seven" then I believe they would have had a winner.
Caterham have been an excellent business but I do believe that cars like the Elise, XTR etc. are a warning they need to listen to. These cars are in the market that Caterham have and I'm an example of: Single (or enthusiastic/forgiving partner), 30-40ish, disposable income, into motor sport. They need to produce a new car and race it (ie have their own series)
I am a big fan of the Caterham manufacter ie road legal race cars with a good dose of two fingers to the establishment and would hate to see it going through.
Unlike Morgan, Caterham have a lot of competetion of the same style car. Kit cars and production versions are availble and are cheaper than Caterham. In performance terms I don't believe there is much difference between a Caterham a Dax or a Westfield. But in prices there is a significant difference. Eg superlight starts at £23,000 built cars Westfield are £18k. Full kits at £13k for Westfield and £21k for Caterham. As the programme showed one of the biggest rivals is the Elise and you can get a lot of that car for £20k now days.
The biggest problem with the 21 IMHO was that it looked like a comfort car and wasn't. If they'd produced a motorsport style car rather than a "retro look slower seven" then I believe they would have had a winner.
Caterham have been an excellent business but I do believe that cars like the Elise, XTR etc. are a warning they need to listen to. These cars are in the market that Caterham have and I'm an example of: Single (or enthusiastic/forgiving partner), 30-40ish, disposable income, into motor sport. They need to produce a new car and race it (ie have their own series)
I am a big fan of the Caterham manufacter ie road legal race cars with a good dose of two fingers to the establishment and would hate to see it going through.
Their problem (as the programme said) is that they're a bit too stuck in the past and niche cars from other people have all takens cuts of what was their market.
People wanting open-top "touring" roadsters have plenty of alternatives, from Ginetta, Fisher and the like through to mainstream things like the MX5.
People wanting more focussed road and sometimes track cars have the Elise, VX220 and more practically cars like the MR2 Roadster.
People wanting track performance will either be swayed to the cheaper, better-performing seven clones or more extreme stuff like the Radical or XTR2.
Their biggest problem for me is the price. I've wanted a Seven since I saw one when I was about 8 - but I simply can't afford a Caterham. The Seven is supposedly an "affordable" back-to-basics sportcar, but the prices are ridiculous. The cheapest way into a Caterham is by building yourself a Classic for just under 13k - or over 15 built. Add on a few choice options like a heater, paint(!) and weather gear and you're quickly up to 15k self-build or over 17k if it's done for you. And that's just for the most basic 1.4, 100bhp one. Start looking up the range at something more substantial and you can quickly be hitting the 20k mark. That's a lot to be paying for the brand and purity of the design.
The whole "locost" phenomenon is great for enthusiasts in general, but can't be good for Caterham, because it shows people like me that you can make a car that's basically the same on a fraction of the budget. In between the people welding chassis together and Caterham, there's companies offering all kinds of sevens for considerably less cost. From the locost all sorts of new variants are coming along like the MK Indy that offer a pretty straightforward build using a single donor car. Some offer full kits with everything included (ala Caterham and Westfield), some even offer fully built cars.
People who either can't afford or can't justify a 15k+ Caterham find it far easier when the price is down to 4 figures.
Caterham also seem to have shrunk away from the bike-engined field - after seeing reviews of the Fireblade and Blackbird-powered ones (were they prototypes, or ever actually sold?) they seem to have jumped into a commitment with MG/Rover to stay with the K-Series. Disappointing, because I think they really need to be looking at alternatives; bike power is proving to be reliable and user-friendly now that there's been some development. Some of the touring bike engines are smooth, torquey and would be ideal for a roadgoing Seven - like a higher-reving car engine with half the weight.
Don't really know where this ramble is going, or really what Caterham should do, but in my opinion their two biggest problems are ones of price and lack of innovation. All these other seven-makers are doing interesting suspension, huge ranges of engines while they're standing still - if Caterham make the "premium" Seven, theirs should have the best of everything. At the moment, it looks like it's being overtaken by it's cut-price rivals.
People wanting open-top "touring" roadsters have plenty of alternatives, from Ginetta, Fisher and the like through to mainstream things like the MX5.
People wanting more focussed road and sometimes track cars have the Elise, VX220 and more practically cars like the MR2 Roadster.
People wanting track performance will either be swayed to the cheaper, better-performing seven clones or more extreme stuff like the Radical or XTR2.
Their biggest problem for me is the price. I've wanted a Seven since I saw one when I was about 8 - but I simply can't afford a Caterham. The Seven is supposedly an "affordable" back-to-basics sportcar, but the prices are ridiculous. The cheapest way into a Caterham is by building yourself a Classic for just under 13k - or over 15 built. Add on a few choice options like a heater, paint(!) and weather gear and you're quickly up to 15k self-build or over 17k if it's done for you. And that's just for the most basic 1.4, 100bhp one. Start looking up the range at something more substantial and you can quickly be hitting the 20k mark. That's a lot to be paying for the brand and purity of the design.
The whole "locost" phenomenon is great for enthusiasts in general, but can't be good for Caterham, because it shows people like me that you can make a car that's basically the same on a fraction of the budget. In between the people welding chassis together and Caterham, there's companies offering all kinds of sevens for considerably less cost. From the locost all sorts of new variants are coming along like the MK Indy that offer a pretty straightforward build using a single donor car. Some offer full kits with everything included (ala Caterham and Westfield), some even offer fully built cars.
People who either can't afford or can't justify a 15k+ Caterham find it far easier when the price is down to 4 figures.
Caterham also seem to have shrunk away from the bike-engined field - after seeing reviews of the Fireblade and Blackbird-powered ones (were they prototypes, or ever actually sold?) they seem to have jumped into a commitment with MG/Rover to stay with the K-Series. Disappointing, because I think they really need to be looking at alternatives; bike power is proving to be reliable and user-friendly now that there's been some development. Some of the touring bike engines are smooth, torquey and would be ideal for a roadgoing Seven - like a higher-reving car engine with half the weight.
Don't really know where this ramble is going, or really what Caterham should do, but in my opinion their two biggest problems are ones of price and lack of innovation. All these other seven-makers are doing interesting suspension, huge ranges of engines while they're standing still - if Caterham make the "premium" Seven, theirs should have the best of everything. At the moment, it looks like it's being overtaken by it's cut-price rivals.
Noting that:
- I do strategic marketing
- TV can twist the story to suit its own spin
- Some Caterham people visit the forum
here's my take:
1- Why do they need a new car?
This wasn't answered. The Seven is not at saturation in the UK, and there are further options abroad, still. I don't believe the self-build/low volume market will be legislated away in the near future.
2- Why a new car (again)?
There is considerable scope for improving the existing Seven, without compromising the heritage. For starters:
- Front suspension
- Rear suspension
- Body & aerodynamics (I can see half a dozen areas where improvements could be made that would be invisible to all but the keenest eye.
- Weather Protection - long overdue for a redesign.
All of these could be undertaken for much less than a new, ground-up design.
3- What was the new car supposed to be?
After 40 minutes, it was still not clear. Another out and out sportscar? A trackday special. More capable of touring, or being an only car? Eventually, we got "better than an Elise, and better than a Se7en", which begs the questions "better, how?" and "why are you trying to cannibalise your own market?"
A new car, especially a sportscar needs to be summarised in one sentence (cf the McLaren " A showpiece for McLaren expertise and technology, and a car Mansour Ojjeh can drive down to Cannes in total comfort").
The early planning meetings were considering engine position. Why? If this was to be a serious sportscar, the designer should have had a brief that allowed him to make that decision. It was pretty clear that he didn't. Sure, make the decision for marketing reasons if you want (like saying a Morgan will always have the engine at the front), but recognise that you have fundamentally compromised the design.
the process should have been:
- Define what the car is supposed to be. What are its competitors, what is it to be capable of, how is it to be used, who is going to buy it. These cover not just performance figures, but also some other parameters, such as comfort, weather protection, servicing.
- Also define any non-engineering parameters (For Caterham, this might include engine options, and the flexibility/space to change them.
- The core design team (under clear, dictatorial leadership) convert these into a set of core engineering specifications (weight by section, chassis stiffness, cost, Cd, etc.), and an outline shape/structure. Within this, making key recommendations on layout.
- Specification is signed off
- Team design it, with a complete understanding of what is required of them.
This could be done by employing me, or (rather cheaper) buying the McLaren book as a bible on how to do it.
As to Reynard, nice idea, wrong company. Reynard had a high reputation in some quarters, but certain others who've worked with them were not so impressed. Did anyone notice that the first design looked remarkably similar to the Strathcarron, designed IIRC by, err, Reynard?
- I do strategic marketing
- TV can twist the story to suit its own spin
- Some Caterham people visit the forum
here's my take:
1- Why do they need a new car?
This wasn't answered. The Seven is not at saturation in the UK, and there are further options abroad, still. I don't believe the self-build/low volume market will be legislated away in the near future.
2- Why a new car (again)?
There is considerable scope for improving the existing Seven, without compromising the heritage. For starters:
- Front suspension
- Rear suspension
- Body & aerodynamics (I can see half a dozen areas where improvements could be made that would be invisible to all but the keenest eye.
- Weather Protection - long overdue for a redesign.
All of these could be undertaken for much less than a new, ground-up design.
3- What was the new car supposed to be?
After 40 minutes, it was still not clear. Another out and out sportscar? A trackday special. More capable of touring, or being an only car? Eventually, we got "better than an Elise, and better than a Se7en", which begs the questions "better, how?" and "why are you trying to cannibalise your own market?"
A new car, especially a sportscar needs to be summarised in one sentence (cf the McLaren " A showpiece for McLaren expertise and technology, and a car Mansour Ojjeh can drive down to Cannes in total comfort").
The early planning meetings were considering engine position. Why? If this was to be a serious sportscar, the designer should have had a brief that allowed him to make that decision. It was pretty clear that he didn't. Sure, make the decision for marketing reasons if you want (like saying a Morgan will always have the engine at the front), but recognise that you have fundamentally compromised the design.
the process should have been:
- Define what the car is supposed to be. What are its competitors, what is it to be capable of, how is it to be used, who is going to buy it. These cover not just performance figures, but also some other parameters, such as comfort, weather protection, servicing.
- Also define any non-engineering parameters (For Caterham, this might include engine options, and the flexibility/space to change them.
- The core design team (under clear, dictatorial leadership) convert these into a set of core engineering specifications (weight by section, chassis stiffness, cost, Cd, etc.), and an outline shape/structure. Within this, making key recommendations on layout.
- Specification is signed off
- Team design it, with a complete understanding of what is required of them.
This could be done by employing me, or (rather cheaper) buying the McLaren book as a bible on how to do it.
As to Reynard, nice idea, wrong company. Reynard had a high reputation in some quarters, but certain others who've worked with them were not so impressed. Did anyone notice that the first design looked remarkably similar to the Strathcarron, designed IIRC by, err, Reynard?
The guy who designed the Sylva Stylus etc has come up with a new product that matches what AJLintern has suggested. A mid engined 7 called the Mojo2.
www.sylva.co.uk/
I thought the documentary was interesting but did leave Caterham looking like they just don't know what to do next. I'm also confused as to why they only use the K-series engine, although I suppose it makes life easier to supply and support just one make of engine in the fully built ones that they sell.
www.sylva.co.uk/
I thought the documentary was interesting but did leave Caterham looking like they just don't know what to do next. I'm also confused as to why they only use the K-series engine, although I suppose it makes life easier to supply and support just one make of engine in the fully built ones that they sell.
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