TVR - Sideways in the Wet .................?
Discussion
Often said, obviously very true....
Especially with Griffs and Chims it seems, but lots of people talk about brown trouser moments / tail happy in the wet...
In *real* terms - how much of an occurance / problem is this?
When and how does it happen?
Are we talking flooring it on a wet bend...or a gentle push with the wheel off centre?
How careful do you need to be?
In the wet? - In the dry?
I just wondered.....
In the dry, with a good set of tyres and proper set up suspension, you'd have to be a real nutter to get it too far out of shape.
Even in the wet you have to be driving a little crazy for the conditions to loose it, in my near 6 years of driving one I have to say the car has been great in the wet - it's the driver not the car that causes odd stuff to happen.
Of course it's easier to loose the back end and some times when safe fun to provoke it, but in normal day-to-day driving, whatever the weather, as long as you drive to the conditions there won't be a problem.
On roads I know, whatever the weather I have no issues in flooring it, just do it more progressively and there should be no trauma. I've driven in some pretty crap weather over the last week and not had a single issue yet and still had fun and made progress.
Take it easy, drive in a style relating to the weather conditions, drive to your ability and there will be no trouble.
Even in the wet you have to be driving a little crazy for the conditions to loose it, in my near 6 years of driving one I have to say the car has been great in the wet - it's the driver not the car that causes odd stuff to happen.
Of course it's easier to loose the back end and some times when safe fun to provoke it, but in normal day-to-day driving, whatever the weather, as long as you drive to the conditions there won't be a problem.
On roads I know, whatever the weather I have no issues in flooring it, just do it more progressively and there should be no trauma. I've driven in some pretty crap weather over the last week and not had a single issue yet and still had fun and made progress.
Take it easy, drive in a style relating to the weather conditions, drive to your ability and there will be no trouble.
.Mark said:
Even in the wet you have to be driving a little crazy for the conditions to loose it, in my near 6 years of driving one I have to say the car has been great in the wet - it's the driver not the car that causes odd stuff to happen.
......
Take it easy, drive in a style relating to the weather conditions, drive to your ability and there will be no trouble.
I agree completely. There are very few situations (black ice, diesel on the road etc) where you will lose it unless the driver is ignoring the laws of physics.
I don't agree with the limitation of Chim/Griff on this question, any front engined rear wheel drive car without traction control engaged can be provoked into tail happy behaviour IMHO.
In the winter months I look very carefully at how I set cars up, tyre pressures, damper settings and geo can be adjusted to make the car less agressive in the wet but the biggest thing I learnt from the ride drive guys and experimenting in the wet was to carry speed into corners and not get my boot buried into the carpet until the wheels are straight. Oh and not to change down gears going into corners.
One of the reasons for me having a serious play in the wet was to find out how much difference bump/rebound ratios played in keeping traction and there is no doubt in my mind that having a higher rebound to bump ratio on the back of all the TVR's (and MX-5's) has helped traction. How many times have we heard about cars going into roundabouts with power on and hitting a bump, the back lifts, traction is lost and suddenly we are facing the other way.
In the winter months I look very carefully at how I set cars up, tyre pressures, damper settings and geo can be adjusted to make the car less agressive in the wet but the biggest thing I learnt from the ride drive guys and experimenting in the wet was to carry speed into corners and not get my boot buried into the carpet until the wheels are straight. Oh and not to change down gears going into corners.
One of the reasons for me having a serious play in the wet was to find out how much difference bump/rebound ratios played in keeping traction and there is no doubt in my mind that having a higher rebound to bump ratio on the back of all the TVR's (and MX-5's) has helped traction. How many times have we heard about cars going into roundabouts with power on and hitting a bump, the back lifts, traction is lost and suddenly we are facing the other way.
Edited by the gazman on Wednesday 13th December 18:24
the gazman said:
I don't agree with the limitation of Chim/Griff on this question, any front engined rear wheel drive car without traction control engaged can be provoked into tail happy behaviour IMHO.
Dont own a TVR yet but I agree with this
Even that shitty old Volvo 240 I recently sold hada tendancey to become very twitchy and it was running really crappy!!
Remember the Torque on the RV8 in the Griff and Chim comes in relatively early (I think its around 3500rpm isnt it guys) and from what Ive heard is available in bitesize pieces when pottering and large mansize portions when you're aiming to cash in your chips!!
Be carefull
I've owned my Tuscan for nearly a year now and its the longest a car has taken me to be at one with.
I've experience a fair few mishaps from fish tailing round a bend at 120 to getting the boot passed the wheel messing up with heal and toe.
From my short time of ownership IMO driving the car at speed in the wet no matter what tyres are on is a fools game even in 3rd gear and not to much boost the back can still step out.
In the cold the loss of traction is still significant flooring it in 1st and 2nd is pretty much a waste of time and all your end up with is big noise.
In the hot thats when the fun starts the car does stick to the road quite well and being in control of flicking the back out or semi drifting round a bend gets the adrenaline going ever time.
Dont know how the Tuscan stands up against other Tivs but I would have thought its hanging round some where at the bottom, sorry if Im wrong.
I've experience a fair few mishaps from fish tailing round a bend at 120 to getting the boot passed the wheel messing up with heal and toe.
From my short time of ownership IMO driving the car at speed in the wet no matter what tyres are on is a fools game even in 3rd gear and not to much boost the back can still step out.
In the cold the loss of traction is still significant flooring it in 1st and 2nd is pretty much a waste of time and all your end up with is big noise.
In the hot thats when the fun starts the car does stick to the road quite well and being in control of flicking the back out or semi drifting round a bend gets the adrenaline going ever time.
Dont know how the Tuscan stands up against other Tivs but I would have thought its hanging round some where at the bottom, sorry if Im wrong.
Edited by optimal noise on Wednesday 13th December 20:55
optimal noise said:
Dont know how the Tuscan stands up against other Tivs but I would have thought its hanging round some where at the bottom, sorry if Im wrong.
Eh??
something about having a saggy bottom? Just kidding - I think Tuscan's have a reputation for being a bit "twitchy" but I think that so long as the tyre pressures are right, the geo is good and the car is kept as smoothly balanced as possible in and out of corners, I find the Tuscan a remarkably confident ride. I admit I don't normally do the dog on it coming out of roundabouts/bends etc, but I have only once or twice felt a little brown-trouser moment and both of those were before I had the Geo set up properly. The hyrdratrak diff also seems to help immensely... Andy
.Mark said:
In the dry, with a good set of tyres and proper set up suspension, you'd have to be a real nutter to get it too far out of shape.
Even in the wet you have to be driving a little crazy for the conditions to loose it, in my near 6 years of driving one I have to say the car has been great in the wet - it's the driver not the car that causes odd stuff to happen.
Of course it's easier to loose the back end and some times when safe fun to provoke it, but in normal day-to-day driving, whatever the weather, as long as you drive to the conditions there won't be a problem.
On roads I know, whatever the weather I have no issues in flooring it, just do it more progressively and there should be no trauma. I've driven in some pretty crap weather over the last week and not had a single issue yet and still had fun and made progress.
Absolutely spot on!
Take it easy, drive in a style relating to the weather conditions, drive to your ability and there will be no trouble.
Even in the wet you have to be driving a little crazy for the conditions to loose it, in my near 6 years of driving one I have to say the car has been great in the wet - it's the driver not the car that causes odd stuff to happen.
Of course it's easier to loose the back end and some times when safe fun to provoke it, but in normal day-to-day driving, whatever the weather, as long as you drive to the conditions there won't be a problem.
On roads I know, whatever the weather I have no issues in flooring it, just do it more progressively and there should be no trauma. I've driven in some pretty crap weather over the last week and not had a single issue yet and still had fun and made progress.
Absolutely spot on!
Take it easy, drive in a style relating to the weather conditions, drive to your ability and there will be no trouble.
you really need to be progessive on the gas to maintain a straight line. Unless you want to go sideways [quote=Rum Runner]Worst thing is standing water , with little weight and big tyres .
Though if anybody thinks driving a Chim is interesting in the wet you should try driving at 1.8 bog sierra (no PAS)with 185/70 tyres that are about 7-8 years old ( lots of tread though just a bit hard ). Its like driving on ice, 90year old grannies can go round the outside of you at roundabouts in Micra's while stroking there skanky old dog on the passenger seat while you have got 1/2 a turn of lock on ,trying to hold it all together.
Bloody funny, and with car only being worth about £50 , its less stress than getting crossed up in the Chim as the repair bill flashes past your eye's.
So i find the Chim is good in the wet , but progressive throttle , its like a dog if you go walloping it at some point its going to bite back.
I think some of the potential problems with TVR's going backwards when not intending to, is that unless you learnt to drive before the late 80's most people are brought up on front wheel drive ,and when you are 17/18 is when you do all the crazy mad driving,if you did this in a RWD car then i think you tend to learn a little more respect early on in your driving career. The beauty back then was grip was low so the speed was much less tyres more progressive at letting go softer sidewalls ,no PAS for more feel. It is then alot easier to understand how a car behaves on the limit without a snap over transition.Which gives you a understanding of what is going to happen with a lot of power and grip. A bigger moment whilst carrying a lot more speed!.
Try driving a 85' Corolla RWD GT Coupe and say 1.8 Focus about the same power !. You can get away with hell of a lot in a 1.8 Focus!. But I can tell you don't get away with much in None face-lift GT coupe with 13inch wheels 185/70 and a aggressive diff and no weight on the back wheels a short wheelbase with high ride height and narrow track !. That's how they where back then ,you soon learn control and respect.
Though if anybody thinks driving a Chim is interesting in the wet you should try driving at 1.8 bog sierra (no PAS)with 185/70 tyres that are about 7-8 years old ( lots of tread though just a bit hard ). Its like driving on ice, 90year old grannies can go round the outside of you at roundabouts in Micra's while stroking there skanky old dog on the passenger seat while you have got 1/2 a turn of lock on ,trying to hold it all together.
Bloody funny, and with car only being worth about £50 , its less stress than getting crossed up in the Chim as the repair bill flashes past your eye's.
So i find the Chim is good in the wet , but progressive throttle , its like a dog if you go walloping it at some point its going to bite back.
I think some of the potential problems with TVR's going backwards when not intending to, is that unless you learnt to drive before the late 80's most people are brought up on front wheel drive ,and when you are 17/18 is when you do all the crazy mad driving,if you did this in a RWD car then i think you tend to learn a little more respect early on in your driving career. The beauty back then was grip was low so the speed was much less tyres more progressive at letting go softer sidewalls ,no PAS for more feel. It is then alot easier to understand how a car behaves on the limit without a snap over transition.Which gives you a understanding of what is going to happen with a lot of power and grip. A bigger moment whilst carrying a lot more speed!.
Try driving a 85' Corolla RWD GT Coupe and say 1.8 Focus about the same power !. You can get away with hell of a lot in a 1.8 Focus!. But I can tell you don't get away with much in None face-lift GT coupe with 13inch wheels 185/70 and a aggressive diff and no weight on the back wheels a short wheelbase with high ride height and narrow track !. That's how they where back then ,you soon learn control and respect.
Edited by Rum Runner on Wednesday 13th December 23:04
Its down to the driver 100%.
Alot of the sprinting lot (I include my dad in this, though he'll argue otherwise when questioned) are extremely talented, and even in the wet are able to really shock alot of so called "superior" handling cars.
This is around hillclimbs/ sprints, so its not some point and squirt challenge - this is really really twisty stuff, the kind where well driven Elises are often found lacking compared to stripped out 205's and real driver skill. I've seen various TVRs annihalate all sorts of cars in all weathers at sprints - on the road, the commitment to corners/ accel is lower (hopefully) and as a result, the cars, when driven properly - are actually perfectly able.
FWIW, I've only ever driven the Cerb in anger in the wet... im not massively familiar with it, and im a pretty crap driver. This was at Harewood hillclimb, I had one run... looking back, it was frightening - especially as I switched from a smart car the run before. In all honesty, it had the same braking zones, the same cornering speeds (or higher) and was actually MUCH more benign to play with on the throttle than the smart. Despite being massively more accelerative/ intimidating initially, it was a fantastic drive... yes, it did wheelspin when I short shifted to fourth at one point, but I wasnt scared, infact - by the fourth corner, I was pretty confident with provoking it and keeping it sideways from then on.
This is with a TCS set up/ a very well looked after car, granted. But its still a road biased set up, on road tyres, with a moron (me) at the wheel. Hands down, the best drive of my life thus far. Infact, just thinking about it makes me desperate to get the Cerb out on a trackday... the only thing stopping me is that im unsure of how it acts in the dry!!?!?
I really believe that its 100% down to the nut behind the wheel/ the set up of the TVR itself.
Alot of the sprinting lot (I include my dad in this, though he'll argue otherwise when questioned) are extremely talented, and even in the wet are able to really shock alot of so called "superior" handling cars.
This is around hillclimbs/ sprints, so its not some point and squirt challenge - this is really really twisty stuff, the kind where well driven Elises are often found lacking compared to stripped out 205's and real driver skill. I've seen various TVRs annihalate all sorts of cars in all weathers at sprints - on the road, the commitment to corners/ accel is lower (hopefully) and as a result, the cars, when driven properly - are actually perfectly able.
FWIW, I've only ever driven the Cerb in anger in the wet... im not massively familiar with it, and im a pretty crap driver. This was at Harewood hillclimb, I had one run... looking back, it was frightening - especially as I switched from a smart car the run before. In all honesty, it had the same braking zones, the same cornering speeds (or higher) and was actually MUCH more benign to play with on the throttle than the smart. Despite being massively more accelerative/ intimidating initially, it was a fantastic drive... yes, it did wheelspin when I short shifted to fourth at one point, but I wasnt scared, infact - by the fourth corner, I was pretty confident with provoking it and keeping it sideways from then on.
This is with a TCS set up/ a very well looked after car, granted. But its still a road biased set up, on road tyres, with a moron (me) at the wheel. Hands down, the best drive of my life thus far. Infact, just thinking about it makes me desperate to get the Cerb out on a trackday... the only thing stopping me is that im unsure of how it acts in the dry!!?!?
I really believe that its 100% down to the nut behind the wheel/ the set up of the TVR itself.
Driven a Tuscan mk1 and now a T350.Chaulk and cliche.The Tuscan was not bad but certainly more twitchy ,the T350 far more settled and inspires real confidense in the wet around corners with the usual caveats regarding not booting it half way round or lifting of suddenly which will always unsettle a car.
However,you need to study road surfaces if you are going to be safe. Look out for deasel spills,road repairs,loose surfaces etc.They'll get you everytime.
Try a skid pan session,loads of fun and you get a real feel for what to do if it all goes wrong one day.
However,you need to study road surfaces if you are going to be safe. Look out for deasel spills,road repairs,loose surfaces etc.They'll get you everytime.
Try a skid pan session,loads of fun and you get a real feel for what to do if it all goes wrong one day.
Rum Runner said:
I think some of the potential problems with TVR's going backwards when not intending to, is that unless you learnt to drive before the late 80's most people are brought up on front wheel drive ,and when you are 17/18 is when you do all the crazy mad driving,if you did this in a RWD car then i think you tend to learn a little more respect early on in your driving career. The beauty back then was grip was low so the speed was much less tyres more progressive at letting go softer sidewalls ,no PAS for more feel. It is then alot easier to understand how a car behaves on the limit without a snap over transition.Which gives you a understanding of what is going to happen with a lot of power and grip. A bigger moment whilst carring a lot more speed!.
Try driving 2.3 cortina and a 1.6 mondeo about the same power !. You get get away with hell of a lot in a 1.6 mondeo.!
I agree with this, and I passed my test in 97!
It is a completely different driving style between front and rear wheel drive. The chim was my first rear wheel drive car, and i was driving it like a girl (no offence to the girls) for the first year or so, and still do in this weather. I find you have to be a lot smoother with rear wheel drive or you will find yourself in trouble.
Edited by ads on Thursday 14th December 08:39
t, and they'll bite you. Nothing to fear otherwise...ads said:
[quote=Rum Runner]
I agree with this, and I passed my test in 97!
It is a completely different driving style between front and rear wheel drive. The chim was my first rear wheel drive car, and i was driving it like a girl (no offence to the girls) for the first year or so, and still do in this weather. I find you have to be a lot smoother with rear wheel drive or you will find yourself in trouble.
I agree with this, and I passed my test in 97!
It is a completely different driving style between front and rear wheel drive. The chim was my first rear wheel drive car, and i was driving it like a girl (no offence to the girls) for the first year or so, and still do in this weather. I find you have to be a lot smoother with rear wheel drive or you will find yourself in trouble.
Edited by ads on Thursday 14th December 08:39
I don't agree that it requires a different driving style for the majority of situations encountered on public roads.
A good driver can jump from FWD to RWD and drive competently in either by using standard good driving techniques that apply regardless of driving style. RWD will punish bad habits that FWD will often forgive. I have no problem with my missus swapping between her Renault 5 and the Chim as her car control is reasonable in the first place.
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