Interesting response to PACE letter
Discussion
OK... bit of a long story, but might interest some forum members.
Recieved a NIP from North Wales Police back in early November for an alleged 35mph in a 30 zone, past a lazer van.
Now, as it happens, I don't believe the speed reading for the simple reason that my TomTom had alerted me to the fact that I was entering an 'accident blackspot' a short while before and I was ...ahem... proceeding with due caution. In fact, should the video evidence be of sufficient quality, it will show me pointing out the Tax Van to my girlfriend as I come round the corner and a good lip reader will be able to decipher the words: 'Look, that's the fcuking
, there!'.
But that's beside the point...
I waited 26 of the 28 days allowable for response to the NIP, then sent it off with the standard Pepipoo 'PACE' covering letter and 'see attached letter' written across the form itself.
A few days later (early this month), I received another NIP, identical except for the fact that it had been re-dated to the date on which they will have recieved my earlier PACE response, giving me another 28 days to respond. No covering letter, no explanation of why the had sent out the second, re-dated NIP, no threats that unless I fill in the form correctly instead of sending a covering letter I would be in breach of the law, no nothing...just the revised form.
Obviously, I was intending to wait until two days before it runs out again, then send off another PACE covering letter with the new NIP.
In the meanwhile, I have now been sent an offer to attend a 'Speed Awareness Course', that promises to avoid the 3 points on my licence. I'm supposed to fill this in to say whether or not I want to accept the course (despite the fact that I am still within the 28 day response period to the second NIP).
Curious behaviour, methinks...
Opinions and information sought from the experts:
1) If I attended the course, can I claim for future insurance purposes not to have any speeding conviction, or does acceptance of the course imply acknowlegement of guilt/conviction for speeding?
2) Does this behaviour by North Wales Police impy that they have been wrong-footed by my PACE response (I'm assuming they must get dozens of these a week, given Brunstroms rabid over-enforcement of speed limits), and that if I continue to play the PACE card, they'll simply drop the matter?
3) The covering letter that was sent with the Speed Awareness Course form states that if I do not respond within 14 days it will result in 'the Notice [NIP] being automatically updated for a Conditional Offer'. DOes this mean that they think they can use the driver information given on the PACE letter as proof against me, and that I have accepted 'guilt', or are they just bluffing?
4) Are they able to update the original NIP to a conditional offer, when they have already sent a separate NIP, to which I have yet to respond, which has not yet reached the 28-day response period allowed (therefore, under the second NIP, I have yet to identify - or fail to identify - the driver)?
Your thoughts, gentlemen?
Recieved a NIP from North Wales Police back in early November for an alleged 35mph in a 30 zone, past a lazer van.
Now, as it happens, I don't believe the speed reading for the simple reason that my TomTom had alerted me to the fact that I was entering an 'accident blackspot' a short while before and I was ...ahem... proceeding with due caution. In fact, should the video evidence be of sufficient quality, it will show me pointing out the Tax Van to my girlfriend as I come round the corner and a good lip reader will be able to decipher the words: 'Look, that's the fcuking
, there!'. But that's beside the point...
I waited 26 of the 28 days allowable for response to the NIP, then sent it off with the standard Pepipoo 'PACE' covering letter and 'see attached letter' written across the form itself.
A few days later (early this month), I received another NIP, identical except for the fact that it had been re-dated to the date on which they will have recieved my earlier PACE response, giving me another 28 days to respond. No covering letter, no explanation of why the had sent out the second, re-dated NIP, no threats that unless I fill in the form correctly instead of sending a covering letter I would be in breach of the law, no nothing...just the revised form.
Obviously, I was intending to wait until two days before it runs out again, then send off another PACE covering letter with the new NIP.
In the meanwhile, I have now been sent an offer to attend a 'Speed Awareness Course', that promises to avoid the 3 points on my licence. I'm supposed to fill this in to say whether or not I want to accept the course (despite the fact that I am still within the 28 day response period to the second NIP).
Curious behaviour, methinks...
Opinions and information sought from the experts:
1) If I attended the course, can I claim for future insurance purposes not to have any speeding conviction, or does acceptance of the course imply acknowlegement of guilt/conviction for speeding?
2) Does this behaviour by North Wales Police impy that they have been wrong-footed by my PACE response (I'm assuming they must get dozens of these a week, given Brunstroms rabid over-enforcement of speed limits), and that if I continue to play the PACE card, they'll simply drop the matter?
3) The covering letter that was sent with the Speed Awareness Course form states that if I do not respond within 14 days it will result in 'the Notice [NIP] being automatically updated for a Conditional Offer'. DOes this mean that they think they can use the driver information given on the PACE letter as proof against me, and that I have accepted 'guilt', or are they just bluffing?
4) Are they able to update the original NIP to a conditional offer, when they have already sent a separate NIP, to which I have yet to respond, which has not yet reached the 28-day response period allowed (therefore, under the second NIP, I have yet to identify - or fail to identify - the driver)?
Your thoughts, gentlemen?
Sam_68 said:
In the meanwhile, I have now been sent an offer to attend a 'Speed Awareness Course', that promises to avoid the 3 points on my licence. I'm supposed to fill this in to say whether or not I want to accept the course (despite the fact that I am still within the 28 day response period to the second NIP).
My first guess (but I am not much good in this area, just going on gut instinct) is that rather than expend a lot of time and effort chasing etc.. they hope you will pay up and attend the course, they still get their money, and another mean nasty child murder for their stats. I suspect any acceptance of the course would be an admission of the guilt of the offence and that they are now trying even sneakier tactics to raise taxes.
jasandjules said:
Sam_68 said:
In the meanwhile, I have now been sent an offer to attend a 'Speed Awareness Course', that promises to avoid the 3 points on my licence. I'm supposed to fill this in to say whether or not I want to accept the course (despite the fact that I am still within the 28 day response period to the second NIP).
My first guess (but I am not much good in this area, just going on gut instinct) is that rather than expend a lot of time and effort chasing etc.. they hope you will pay up and attend the course, they still get their money, and another mean nasty child murder for their stats. I suspect any acceptance of the course would be an admission of the guilt of the offence and that they are now trying even sneakier tactics to raise taxes.
Agreed.
If you remember that these guys are sending out thousands of letters per months that doesnt give much spance for individual responses to each person who deosnt 'tow the line'.
Look at the motives at the moment. *If* the camera partnership keep sending you letters which slowly 'make it easier' for you to comply then they are increasing their chance of getting £60.
If you keep responding with a PACE letter they know that you know your stuff and are not going to lie down before court. However if it goes to court they dont get their money anyway. Furthermore, if you have already showed that you are willing to go all the way to defend your innocence there is the distinct possibility that they will be asked to provide the full tape of evidence - which they wont want to do (see Peters LTI2020 Strikes Again thread) or worse still if they do release the tape and you are proved innocent it is yet another person to go public to prove their systems are not accurate and yet more people to have the 'balls' you have in not lying down and paying.
You already have my respect for taking it this far, I think that if you *know* your speed then you have a great case to fight.
If you dont do it for yourself, be safe in the knowledge that you are personally going some way to getting this stupid system scrapped.
Just wondering you understand.
So they get the Pace letter back with the signed 172 Sam is the driver.
Because of the Pace letter they leave the file open and resend the 172 to give Sam another chance?
They haven't received that back so as they have the signed 172, which is all the evidence they need to prove the driver, they take the next step up the chain being not prepared to be phases by the Pace letter. Because of the low speed involved they offer the Speed Awareness Course. If not taken then next step CO. If not taken Court?
dvd
PS. Gentlemen do not swear in the presence of loved females. No wonder the country is going to the dogs. Manners?
So they get the Pace letter back with the signed 172 Sam is the driver.
Because of the Pace letter they leave the file open and resend the 172 to give Sam another chance?
They haven't received that back so as they have the signed 172, which is all the evidence they need to prove the driver, they take the next step up the chain being not prepared to be phases by the Pace letter. Because of the low speed involved they offer the Speed Awareness Course. If not taken then next step CO. If not taken Court?
dvd
PS. Gentlemen do not swear in the presence of loved females. No wonder the country is going to the dogs. Manners?
Dwight VanDriver said:
...so as they have the signed 172, which is all the evidence they need to prove the driver
They don't have a signed 172, though...they have a blank 172, with 'see attached letter' written across it, accompanied by a signed PACE letter?
PS. I never claimed to be a gentleman!
Sam_68 said:
Dwight VanDriver said:
...so as they have the signed 172, which is all the evidence they need to prove the driver
They don't have a signed 172, though...they have a blank 172, with 'see attached letter' written across it, accompanied by a signed PACE letter?
PS. I never claimed to be a gentleman!
So if they have offered you (personally) the "Speed Awareness" course they must be satisfied that you have identified the driver. Therefore, logically, there can be no s172 charge.
However, I was in a similar postion with a fully-completed but unsigned s172/NIP. I was later sent the usual "conditional offer of 3 points/£60). I ignored this and went to Court charged with "failure to identify driver" and argued that as I had been sent an offer, the CoP must know the driver's identity. Result= 3points, £750 fine, £275 costs. I later found out that the Police had been using pre-printed and unsigned Police witness statements in Court (the CoP (Brunstrom) should have been charged with 6,000 counts of "perversion of the course of justice"
and I was asked back for a further hearing. The Mags simply said I was guilty anyway ! Corrupt Tossers. These people are simply oxygen thieves.
Sam_68 said:
Dwight VanDriver said:
...so as they have the signed 172, which is all the evidence they need to prove the driver
They don't have a signed 172, though...they have a blank 172, with 'see attached letter' written across it, accompanied by a signed PACE letter?
PS. I never claimed to be a gentleman!
So into their hands for failing to sign the 172.
dvd
Sam_68 said:
Dwight VanDriver said:
...so as they have the signed 172, which is all the evidence they need to prove the driver
They don't have a signed 172, though...they have a blank 172, with 'see attached letter' written across it, accompanied by a signed PACE letter?
PS. I never claimed to be a gentleman!
So by not signing the 172 you play into their hands and commit the offence......
dvd
Dwight VanDriver said:
Sam_68 said:
Dwight VanDriver said:
...so as they have the signed 172, which is all the evidence they need to prove the driver
They don't have a signed 172, though...they have a blank 172, with 'see attached letter' written across it, accompanied by a signed PACE letter?
PS. I never claimed to be a gentleman!
So by not signing the 172 you play into their hands and commit the offence......
dvd
I thought you didnt commit the offence because you are providing them a signed witness statement identifying the driver, but not actually signing the forced confession part of the s172
Dwight VanDriver said:
Sam_68 said:
Dwight VanDriver said:
...so as they have the signed 172, which is all the evidence they need to prove the driver
They don't have a signed 172, though...they have a blank 172, with 'see attached letter' written across it, accompanied by a signed PACE letter?
PS. I never claimed to be a gentleman!
So by not signing the 172 you play into their hands and commit the offence......
dvd
Have I got this wrong? I thought the PACE letter identified the driver as required by law but pointed out that as no caution had been given, it could not be used to prosecute the said driver.
I am also personally aware of a chap who kept responding to requests for the 172 to be signed with " Tell me where the law says I must sign it and I will"
He told me they eventually left him alone after a few months of this. That was perhaps 3 years ago. Have things changed?
Dwight VanDriver said:
Sam_68 said:
Dwight VanDriver said:
...so as they have the signed 172, which is all the evidence they need to prove the driver
They don't have a signed 172, though...they have a blank 172, with 'see attached letter' written across it, accompanied by a signed PACE letter?
PS. I never claimed to be a gentleman!
So by not signing the 172 you play into their hands and commit the offence......
dvd
You do not have to provide info on their form. Jones Vs DPP is good for that
Sean
I appreciate your argument Nugent but until ECHR pronounce their judgement on:
Incrimination
Caution, and
Human Rights,
I have a feeling that SCP will plough ahead.
Can you really see the ECHR judgement being other than a fudge. There was an ideal chance in the Scottish Browne case with almost identical arguments and they came down on public interest to allow. Image if they hold the system wrong. How many can be compensated? How are they going to replace lost revenue?. Economics and the law don't sleep in the same bed.
dvd
Incrimination
Caution, and
Human Rights,
I have a feeling that SCP will plough ahead.
Can you really see the ECHR judgement being other than a fudge. There was an ideal chance in the Scottish Browne case with almost identical arguments and they came down on public interest to allow. Image if they hold the system wrong. How many can be compensated? How are they going to replace lost revenue?. Economics and the law don't sleep in the same bed.
dvd
1. No. Speed awareness course is not a conviction. On future insurance forms they may ask you if you have attended one, but they don't currently. It is not a conviction or administrative penalty - it is an agreement not to pursue a prosecution.
2. No. They've ignored it, and now you have named the driver, they are pursuing him for his reply to the CoFP.
3. They are using your 172 declaration to offer the driver the Speed Awareness Course in return for not pursuing the prosecution further.
4. Yes. The NIP usually has two elements - a CoFP and a S172 request. They both have 28 day expiries. They must tell you that they will not initiate court proceedings within the 28 days of the CoFP. They can initiate other CoFPs, offers of speed awareness courses and further S172 requests if they require them.
2. No. They've ignored it, and now you have named the driver, they are pursuing him for his reply to the CoFP.
3. They are using your 172 declaration to offer the driver the Speed Awareness Course in return for not pursuing the prosecution further.
4. Yes. The NIP usually has two elements - a CoFP and a S172 request. They both have 28 day expiries. They must tell you that they will not initiate court proceedings within the 28 days of the CoFP. They can initiate other CoFPs, offers of speed awareness courses and further S172 requests if they require them.
If ever there was an illustration of the cockamamey halfarsed jacked up stoopid ass of a law (and its enforcement) on vehicle speed from amoral incompetent bunglers in officialdom who haven't got the first idea on road safety but want to persecute drivers while outrageously and nonsensically criminalising safe driving - this thread is it.
What a farce. Sympathies to the OP.
What a farce. Sympathies to the OP.
7db said:
...assuming that the OPs driving was safe, eh, TB?...
Thanks for your previous post, 7DB...that all seems pretty clear. I'm inclined to take this one all the way, if only to ensure that it costs them 10 times as much in adminstration and bureaucracy than they can recover in fines and costs.
Oh, and the sum total of the carnage I've caused on the roads in 20 years x 25K per annum average mileage has been the death of two suicidal blackbirds and one small rabbit, so I must be doing something right!
...though the rabbit might disagree.
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