RE: Road-charging petition is biggest
Monday 18th December 2006
Do you agree with more of this?The anti-road-charging petition is now huge -- approaching 50,0000 signatures -- and is reportedly the biggest on the Government's e-petitions Web site.
Road-charging petition is biggest
Public says no to more motoring taxes
Do you agree with more of this?
The site is designed, it says, as a modern equivalent of the traditional petitions presented at the door of No.10. It enables people to put their views to the Prime Minister. According to the site, can now both create and sign petitions on the site, giving the opportunity to reach a wider audience and to deliver a petition directly to Downing Street.
How much notice the PM will take is another matter entirely.
This one, setup by Peter Roberts on 20 November, is about road charging -- paying not just for the miles you drive but also when you use the road network. It's the future, according to the Government. The Government, academics and a whole host of others cannot see any other way through the current problem of the UK's ever-increasing road congestion.
The system will work using GPS tracking devices, which can track your car wherever you go. The information gathered might just be used for the purposes of road charging -- which many see as yet another, insidious tax on motoring.
It also wouldn't take much effort for a satellite tracking system also to be used for monitoring or even governing speed. Yet speed, as has been shown by Safe Speed's statistical analysis which was recently echoed by the Department of Transport, is not the biggest cause of accidents. It just happens to be the easiest motoring law to enforce.
And information has a tendency to leak. What's the betting that at some point in the future, a government will feel the financial pressure to sell that information to whoever is willing to pay the price? This sinister possibility has raised the hackles of many observers.
With the world watching what the population of this relatively wealthy but densely populated island will make of this experiment, in terms of both road charging and democratic process, now is the time to express your view.
Peter Roberts set up the petition against road charging on 20 November.
Links
Discussion
I was going to sign this, but hesitated as it's not the raw concept that's wrong, but assumptive projections about the possible uses. Maybe this is the kind of world we allow ourselves to live in that sensible debate is reduced to a 'text A or B' to a premium rate number.
In principle, per use road-charging makes sense as it requires those that use a service more heavily to pay more - seems pretty fair to me. Weight + mileage + environmental impact would encourage everyone concerned to reduce weight, address end to end environmental impacts of the production and use of the vehicle and possibly think more about public or shared transport. Soot belching old buses should absolutely pay more per mile than a apologetic dribble of water that limps from the exhaust of a micra.
If we live in a world where we have the geeks and hardware to track uses of services, why not charge pro rate appropriately?
...and whilst you're there, give your full support shoulder padded support to this
In principle, per use road-charging makes sense as it requires those that use a service more heavily to pay more - seems pretty fair to me. Weight + mileage + environmental impact would encourage everyone concerned to reduce weight, address end to end environmental impacts of the production and use of the vehicle and possibly think more about public or shared transport. Soot belching old buses should absolutely pay more per mile than a apologetic dribble of water that limps from the exhaust of a micra.
If we live in a world where we have the geeks and hardware to track uses of services, why not charge pro rate appropriately?
...and whilst you're there, give your full support shoulder padded support to this
Motorists are an easy target for the exchequer. Road users already pay far more than their fair share for the services(like the excellent quaility of our roads?) provided. The money is diverted to other worthy causes such as the Iraq war, and keeping 1.7m out of work (Funny that, all the immigrants from the former eastern block seem to find jobs!). No doubt fuel excise duty and road tax would remain with this tax added on top.
More than that I do not want my every wherabouts tracked by the Government. It is an invasion of my civil liberties. Governments cannot be trusted to use this data for other means. Personally I do not wish to live under that type of regime and I hope it would be an election winning/losing point for the Party that backs it or otherwise. But then again whats the difference between them these days? George Orwell was only 50 years out in '1984'
More than that I do not want my every wherabouts tracked by the Government. It is an invasion of my civil liberties. Governments cannot be trusted to use this data for other means. Personally I do not wish to live under that type of regime and I hope it would be an election winning/losing point for the Party that backs it or otherwise. But then again whats the difference between them these days? George Orwell was only 50 years out in '1984'
brotherharry said:
I was going to sign this, but hesitated as it's not the raw concept that's wrong, but assumptive projections about the possible uses. Maybe this is the kind of world we allow ourselves to live in that sensible debate is reduced to a 'text A or B' to a premium rate number.
In principle, per use road-charging makes sense as it requires those that use a service more heavily to pay more - seems pretty fair to me. Weight + mileage + environmental impact would encourage everyone concerned to reduce weight, address end to end environmental impacts of the production and use of the vehicle and possibly think more about public or shared transport. Soot belching old buses should absolutely pay more per mile than a apologetic dribble of water that limps from the exhaust of a micra.
If we live in a world where we have the geeks and hardware to track uses of services, why not charge pro rate appropriately?
...and whilst you're there, give your full support shoulder padded support to this
In principle, per use road-charging makes sense as it requires those that use a service more heavily to pay more - seems pretty fair to me. Weight + mileage + environmental impact would encourage everyone concerned to reduce weight, address end to end environmental impacts of the production and use of the vehicle and possibly think more about public or shared transport. Soot belching old buses should absolutely pay more per mile than a apologetic dribble of water that limps from the exhaust of a micra.
If we live in a world where we have the geeks and hardware to track uses of services, why not charge pro rate appropriately?
...and whilst you're there, give your full support shoulder padded support to this
I don't disagree. But we already pay taxes based on how much our cars polute and our usage, through the annual Vehicle Licence and tax on fuel. In principle, I would not be against road-charging if the tax from these other items was eradicated.
For now, I'll sign the petition to stop this just steam rollering into place and hope that as an alternative debate is encouraged.
Why does everybody say that "the motorist is penalised", like we're a minority. Look at the roads. Just about everybody is a motorist, so just about everybody shoulders the burden of road taxation. If they reduced taxation on the motorist, the same people would still be paying more for other things.
I think that it's much fairer to remove taxation from things like fuel and charge for road usage. That way the poor guy who lives in the middle of nowhere and has to drive along deserted roads to get to work or the shops, doesn't have to pay as much as the guy who tootles into a congested city out of choice at a busy time of day.
Of course, there is the issue that if we're all going to pay for road usage instead of fuel duty, why not all go out and buy gas guzzlers. But then you scale the charge by emissions, just the same as company car tax is currently scaled. So a small car or hybrid will pay a lower band of toll for using the same road at the same time than a gas guzzler would.
I'll just don my Nomex suit, as I know that I'm going to get flamed for this post.
James
I think that it's much fairer to remove taxation from things like fuel and charge for road usage. That way the poor guy who lives in the middle of nowhere and has to drive along deserted roads to get to work or the shops, doesn't have to pay as much as the guy who tootles into a congested city out of choice at a busy time of day.
Of course, there is the issue that if we're all going to pay for road usage instead of fuel duty, why not all go out and buy gas guzzlers. But then you scale the charge by emissions, just the same as company car tax is currently scaled. So a small car or hybrid will pay a lower band of toll for using the same road at the same time than a gas guzzler would.
I'll just don my Nomex suit, as I know that I'm going to get flamed for this post.
James
Hendry, I think you're going the wrong way.
Fuel tax is an existing, cheap and easy mechanism to tax road usage. Not perfect, for sure, but to replace it with a new, massively expensive and complex computer system run by the Govt (and with very REAL issues on privacy around tracking everywhere we go), is madness and will involve bureaucratic waste of money on a GIGANTIC scale - look at the NHS system drainhole.
On top of which, congestion will always find it's own level anyway - unless the charges were so high as to cripple the economy.
Fuel tax is an existing, cheap and easy mechanism to tax road usage. Not perfect, for sure, but to replace it with a new, massively expensive and complex computer system run by the Govt (and with very REAL issues on privacy around tracking everywhere we go), is madness and will involve bureaucratic waste of money on a GIGANTIC scale - look at the NHS system drainhole.
On top of which, congestion will always find it's own level anyway - unless the charges were so high as to cripple the economy.
heavybear said:
Fuel tax is an existing, cheap and easy mechanism to tax road usage. Not perfect, for sure, but to replace it with a new, massively expensive and complex computer system run by the Govt (and with very REAL issues on privacy around tracking everywhere we go), is madness and will involve bureaucratic waste of money on a GIGANTIC scale - look at the NHS system drainhole.
I think we should keep it simple. You have a big car. You use more fuel. The issue coming out of this is the time you travel i.e. rush hour. Thats there justification for the congestion charge. Outside the main travel times roads are under used. This falls back onto the bog standard 9 to 5 working hours. The money should be spend on increasing the tech infrastructures to allow more people to work from home. This and removing illigal road users would solve a lot of the issues. Improve public transport (properly improve, wich would included knowing down a few houses!) and wort out the decaying roads.
I am available for a select commity if they need real world advice. As i am capable of telling where my elbow is
p.s. i drive through bradford everyday so i know how many bad/illigal drivers there are!
james said:
That way the poor guy who lives in the middle of nowhere and has to drive along deserted roads to get to work or the shops, doesn't have to pay as much as the guy who tootles into a congested city out of choice at a busy time of day.
erm... what about the poor guy that lives right beside the heavy congestion city areas who's going to have to pay a fortune while the wealthier person who can afford to live in the country gets to drive miles without charge.......
The recent fuel increases in the US have proved that people do not stop driving if the cost goes up, they simply sacrifice other things- their prices have more than doubled in the last 2 years and having spoken to many americans while over there in the summer they ALL said they were getting poorer rather than drive less.
I don't object to road charging, but surely that is what fuel tax is for? The government knows that with the public transport system in such a poor state nobody is going to stop driving unless they massively increase the cost, and it would need to be by 3 times or more in order to reduce congestion. This simply won't happen- if every motorist suddenly had to pay triple Bliar and co would be out on their ears within days.
I don't object to road charging, but surely that is what fuel tax is for? The government knows that with the public transport system in such a poor state nobody is going to stop driving unless they massively increase the cost, and it would need to be by 3 times or more in order to reduce congestion. This simply won't happen- if every motorist suddenly had to pay triple Bliar and co would be out on their ears within days.
stickyfiddle said:
The recent fuel increases in the US have proved that people do not stop driving if the cost goes up, they simply sacrifice other things- their prices have more than doubled in the last 2 years and having spoken to many americans while over there in the summer they ALL said they were getting poorer rather than drive less.
I don't object to road charging, but surely that is what fuel tax is for? The government knows that with the public transport system in such a poor state nobody is going to stop driving unless they massively increase the cost, and it would need to be by 3 times or more in order to reduce congestion. This simply won't happen- if every motorist suddenly had to pay triple Bliar and co would be out on their ears within days.
I don't object to road charging, but surely that is what fuel tax is for? The government knows that with the public transport system in such a poor state nobody is going to stop driving unless they massively increase the cost, and it would need to be by 3 times or more in order to reduce congestion. This simply won't happen- if every motorist suddenly had to pay triple Bliar and co would be out on their ears within days.
Yea but if they do road charging by putting a GPS box in your car then a 70 MPH restricter will without doubt come in, or maybe a system to penalize you every time you break the speed limit.
It's not just about controlling how much people drive though is it? Fuel tax is too broad a brush.
This is about controlling when and where people drive. In order to move traffic around to prevent bottlenecks, congestion etc.
Will it work? Who knows?
Does it give finer control to allow traffic to be moved by pricing according to demand for a resource? Yes.
Is that a pure free market principle? Yes.
Is it a poll tax? No. The tax disc is a poll tax.
Is this a big petition? PLEASE! 50000sigs? From 55Mil pop? Not even 0.1%!!
This is about controlling when and where people drive. In order to move traffic around to prevent bottlenecks, congestion etc.
Will it work? Who knows?
Does it give finer control to allow traffic to be moved by pricing according to demand for a resource? Yes.
Is that a pure free market principle? Yes.
Is it a poll tax? No. The tax disc is a poll tax.
Is this a big petition? PLEASE! 50000sigs? From 55Mil pop? Not even 0.1%!!
Does anyone really believe that a road charge would get rid of congestion? After all, ninety percent of congestion is deliberate, brought about through endless road works, idiotic road planning, millions of traffic lights and police who seem to delight in closing roads for hours after an "incident".
This is just a softening-up process.
This is just a softening-up process.
Ruaraidh_Gamma said:
It's not just about controlling how much people drive though is it? Fuel tax is too broad a brush.
This is about controlling when and where people drive. In order to move traffic around to prevent bottlenecks, congestion etc.
Will it work? Who knows?
Does it give finer control to allow traffic to be moved by pricing according to demand for a resource? Yes.
Is that a pure free market principle? Yes.
Is it a poll tax? No. The tax disc is a poll tax.
Is this a big petition? PLEASE! 50000sigs? From 55Mil pop? Not even 0.1%!!
This is about controlling when and where people drive. In order to move traffic around to prevent bottlenecks, congestion etc.
Will it work? Who knows?
Does it give finer control to allow traffic to be moved by pricing according to demand for a resource? Yes.
Is that a pure free market principle? Yes.
Is it a poll tax? No. The tax disc is a poll tax.
Is this a big petition? PLEASE! 50000sigs? From 55Mil pop? Not even 0.1%!!
You are a total muppet (or at least this makes you sound like one) this is another bloody example of something that won't help anyone other than the companies providing the technology and is vastly over complicated (more government non jobs), fuel duty is the easiest way for them to achive the same thing. It won't help congestion, it will just hurt people that need to use their cars to live. Look at the thread the other week about that journey planner, my journey will take me 5 times longer by public transport than by car, make it work and I'll get public transport to work everyday and have a TVR for the weekends.
We already have a tax that is directly related to emissions and distance travelled: it's called "fuel tax". The ONLY point of road charging, is to be able to vary the tax according to the TIME of travel. The cost and complexity of setting up and enforcing road charging would outweigh any benefits.
Also, I actually think it is a myth that many car journeys are avoidable, so it wouldn't have much effect anyway.
Also, I actually think it is a myth that many car journeys are avoidable, so it wouldn't have much effect anyway.
Ruaraidh_Gamma said:
It's not just about controlling how much people drive though is it? Fuel tax is too broad a brush.
This is about controlling when and where people drive. In order to move traffic around to prevent bottlenecks, congestion etc.
Will it work? Who knows?
Does it give finer control to allow traffic to be moved by pricing according to demand for a resource? Yes.
Is that a pure free market principle? Yes.
Is it a poll tax? No. The tax disc is a poll tax.
Is this a big petition? PLEASE! 50000sigs? From 55Mil pop? Not even 0.1%!!
This is about controlling when and where people drive. In order to move traffic around to prevent bottlenecks, congestion etc.
Will it work? Who knows?
Does it give finer control to allow traffic to be moved by pricing according to demand for a resource? Yes.
Is that a pure free market principle? Yes.
Is it a poll tax? No. The tax disc is a poll tax.
Is this a big petition? PLEASE! 50000sigs? From 55Mil pop? Not even 0.1%!!
Well it's 30,000 more than the majority Labour won the last election with
Ruaraidh_Gamma said:
It's not just about controlling how much people drive though is it? Fuel tax is too broad a brush.
Fuel tax works broadly alright! Bigger cars pay more, you pay more if you are stuck in traffic, more fuel efficient vehicles depreciate less than big gas guzzlers, and more importantly you already pay for it per mile and it doesnt cost billions to implement and collect unlike road charging will.
Ruaraidh_Gamma said:
This is about controlling when and where people drive. In order to move traffic around to prevent bottlenecks, congestion etc.
Congestion it's self already provides that mechanism, nobody wants to waste there time sitting in traffic and if there was an alternative route to a bottleneck they would already use it.
Ruaraidh_Gamma said:
Will it work? Who knows?
Will it make money? Who knows? But one thing for sure it will cost a fortune to collect unlike fuel duty.
Ruaraidh_Gamma said:
Does it give finer control to allow traffic to be moved by pricing according to demand for a resource? Yes.
And how will that work if you have to make a journey at a particular time of day???? Ruaraidh_Gamma said:
Is that a pure free market principle? Yes.
NO. There is nothing free market about it, they steal a public resource that's already been paid for and not only do they charge for it while giving nothing in return they state their real intent is to control our freedom of movement!!! Sounds like a market principle from the Soviet Union? Yes.
Ruaraidh_Gamma said:
Is this a big petition? PLEASE! 50000sigs? From 55Mil pop? Not even 0.1%!!
So what it's the biggest one there proving that road charging is not popular.
Edited by ican on Monday 18th December 18:37
Gassing Station | Motoring News | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff