the illegality of oversteer?
Discussion
If plod were to catch me tail-wagging on an otherwise empty rural roundabout late at night, how likely am i to get clapped in irons for 'driving without due care and attention' or 'reckless driving' or 'enjoying oneself' or somesuch?
and since (hypothetically...) i'm not speeding and thus not caught by digital measurement thingies, do they need double-plod in the car to do anything?
is oversteer deemed to be 'out of control'?
just out of interest, you understand. as clarkson says, "when a car starts to slide i unbuckle my belt and climb in the back!"
and since (hypothetically...) i'm not speeding and thus not caught by digital measurement thingies, do they need double-plod in the car to do anything?
is oversteer deemed to be 'out of control'?
just out of interest, you understand. as clarkson says, "when a car starts to slide i unbuckle my belt and climb in the back!"
There's a horrid idea. 
if you must have a laugh in the wet bear in mind that if the police come across you deliberately doing so there is absulutely no reason not to throw the book at you and the police only have to be lucky once.....
>> Edited by paolow on Monday 31st March 14:29
>> Edited by paolow on Monday 31st March 19:40
>> Edited by paolow on Monday 31st March 14:29
>> Edited by paolow on Monday 31st March 19:40
Its reasonably easy to tell if oversteer has occurred by accident or is deliberately being induced, no more so than when stopping the driver and seeing his/her demeanour. Someone who has had an 'untintentional moment' and survived it, is usually in some state of shock and nervous disposition. Also behaviour of deliberate oversteer is apparent when there is a lot of engine noise in low gear to achieve the effect.
Excuses of "Sorry, my foot slipped" do not wash. It is very apparent that the brain has slipped rather than the foot!
Are you taught to oversteer on roundabouts on your Dept of Transport driving test?
If you are driving other than in a manner compliant with that of the driving test, then you would fall within the definition of 'Careless Driving' falling below the standard of a careful and competent driver.
Ask yourself the question, "Would the notional 'Victor Meldrew' (or My Dad) that saw this incident be caused to think that you were driving in a manner which was condusive of being careful and competent?"
Apart from Careless Driving, there are other offences to consider including, failing to maintain proper control and causing unecessary noise.
If this is your idea of fun on the road, then be aware that you may have to pay the penalty if you are seen doing it by either a Police officer ( On or off duty) or a 'Victor Meldrew' character that is pent on pressing his opinions on 'yobs on the road' through the Police and courts (It does happen!)
Excuses of "Sorry, my foot slipped" do not wash. It is very apparent that the brain has slipped rather than the foot!
Are you taught to oversteer on roundabouts on your Dept of Transport driving test?
If you are driving other than in a manner compliant with that of the driving test, then you would fall within the definition of 'Careless Driving' falling below the standard of a careful and competent driver.
Ask yourself the question, "Would the notional 'Victor Meldrew' (or My Dad) that saw this incident be caused to think that you were driving in a manner which was condusive of being careful and competent?"
Apart from Careless Driving, there are other offences to consider including, failing to maintain proper control and causing unecessary noise.
If this is your idea of fun on the road, then be aware that you may have to pay the penalty if you are seen doing it by either a Police officer ( On or off duty) or a 'Victor Meldrew' character that is pent on pressing his opinions on 'yobs on the road' through the Police and courts (It does happen!)
and since (hypothetically...) i'm not speeding and thus not caught by digital measurement thingies, do they need double-plod in the car to do anything?
Only speeding needs corroboration and this does not mean that 2 officers have to witness the speed. One officer and a mechanicla device which calculates tha actual or average speed is admissable.
Two officers who estimate the speed of a single incident of speeding can give admissable evidence of this fact.
One officer on or off duty can deal with this type of offence, either by stopping you at the time if he/she is in a marked vehicle or by sending you an NIP if they cannot stop you at the time or are off duty.
It does not need corroboration by anyone. It is a matter for the Magistrates to determine when they hear the evidence from both sides of the equation of single witnesses and single defendants.
>> Edited by madcop on Monday 31st March 09:11
madcop said:Are you taught to oversteer on roundabouts on your Dept of Transport driving test?
No you are not, but you are also not taught to drive in the manner the real world requires.
If you were to drive to the DOT standards, you would always drive AT the limit (because you don't get told what speed to do in the fog, rain, snow, etc.) and you would wait at junctions for four days while waiting for someone to let you out. You would use a maximum of 2000rpm and you would shuffle the steering wheel through your hands when turning.
You would never drive on the motorway either because you're not allowed to!
The test proves that you can drive to a standard and there is nothing that stops your driving getting better or worse.
There should be a refresher course 5 years or so after you originally passed to prove that you didn't just drive the way the examiner wanted and then went out and drove like a plonker.
I know I can 'hang the tail out' round some nice bends, again and again I have practiced . . . sometimes failing . . . but practice makes perfect (before anyone starts tutting, this was all at Elvington airfield).
I can lose control, the police driver can lose control, the new driver can lose control, the DOT examiner can lose control. Which one seems to get away with it all the time though?
I have seen plenty of police Astra's 'out of control', with the 'beyond DOT standard' police drivers screeching round corners and skidding to a halt . . . at the chippy. Do I report them, do I hell, because you will politely be told to p!ss off and be a good boy or you will find your car being pulled over all the time.
all the above purely in the interests of mischievousness and it is not my intention to pick on anyone (especially MadCop)
madcop said:One officer on or off duty can deal with this type of offence, either by stopping you at the time if he/she is in a marked vehicle or by sending you an NIP if they cannot stop you at the time or are off duty.
It does not need corroboration by anyone. It is a matter for the Magistrates to determine when they hear the evidence from both sides of the equation of single witnesses and single defendants.
Now that is just downright scary
So plod chap on his way to the masons sees you 'enjoying' yourself takes offence and bang! your in court
How on earth can that get past the CPS
Is a policemans evidance in court worth more than a member of the public's? Unless the PC goes around getting witness statements at the scene on the 'crime' surely you can just say [shaggymode]'it wasn't me'[/shaggymode]
:drivinghomefromworkat30justincasesomeoneswatching:
Can't have MC taking my name in vain!
Being able to rear wheel steer is an essential skill in my book. As a driver of a powerful car prone to such antics unbidden I'd much rather have some experience of what to do before hand.
Off road practice is essential of course, to master the basic skills, but once mastered any skill will be lost if not used regularly.
Do it all the time myself, but no-one but me will ever know. If they do, I deserve a ticket.
The temptation to lightly apply the brakes while along with a touch of lock and a bootful of revs between a particularly annoying set of speed humps may prove to be my downfall though.
Being able to rear wheel steer is an essential skill in my book. As a driver of a powerful car prone to such antics unbidden I'd much rather have some experience of what to do before hand.
Off road practice is essential of course, to master the basic skills, but once mastered any skill will be lost if not used regularly.
Do it all the time myself, but no-one but me will ever know. If they do, I deserve a ticket.
The temptation to lightly apply the brakes while along with a touch of lock and a bootful of revs between a particularly annoying set of speed humps may prove to be my downfall though.
this is another of those threads which sadly comes down to
These rules aint aimed at the people on here with additional driving tuition, car control training and a generally aware and sensible approach to road driving.
Its aimed at the sort of spastic who tried to overtake my elise on a completely blind bend yesterday afternoon....in a slightly maxxed fiesta, 4 up.
Ther thought that his word could be taken as seriously as a Police Officer's genuinely scares me.
I'd personally rather that a number of us got a bit fu**ed by over-zealous policing of car control than twat boy ran my girlfriend over and killed her because no-one had been able to stop him doing it.....
oh...but M5...brilliant post....totally agree.
These rules aint aimed at the people on here with additional driving tuition, car control training and a generally aware and sensible approach to road driving.
Its aimed at the sort of spastic who tried to overtake my elise on a completely blind bend yesterday afternoon....in a slightly maxxed fiesta, 4 up.
Ther thought that his word could be taken as seriously as a Police Officer's genuinely scares me.
I'd personally rather that a number of us got a bit fu**ed by over-zealous policing of car control than twat boy ran my girlfriend over and killed her because no-one had been able to stop him doing it.....
oh...but M5...brilliant post....totally agree.
Just because oversteer and other maneouvers aren't taught by the DoT doesn't make them not applicable to everyday driving.
Take for example an incident that happened to me a year ago or so, maybe a bit more than a year. Anyway, for anyone in the north east, or specifically the tynemouth/cullercoats area, picture the scene - 2am, chucking it down with rain, the beaconsfield road. A wide section of tarmac (well it used to be anyway) with a green field on one side, and a 40' cliff on the other.
Driving along *under* the limit, cos it's chucking it down and it was bloody hard to see - about 25mph at most - and I hit a pool of standing water with the right hand front wheel, the car slips to the right - I instinctively lift off (not a good thing to do in a FWD car) and the back end steps out... a lot.
So - if I hadn't known what to do (countersteer, apply power and progressively feed out the steering) I could have ended up going backwards off a cliff.
How did I know what to do - by practicing. There's no harm in launching yourself at a deserted roundabout to experiment with the car's capabilities. Of course it isn't right all the time - I've had a few 360 degree spins, but I reckon I'd be a lot more composed and able to act properly IF I got into trouble again, than someone who's sat and followed the letter of the law driving wise for x amount of years.
I have to say this now - I have NEVER 'shown off' or 'performed' when there have been others in the car or others around the area, I've had to get out of situations when there have been other passengers - but those are rare occasions.
Due to the setup of about 80% of uk cars (FWD), they're more likely to understeer than oversteer - but you cause enough weight shift and the car will go into lift-off oversteer. Now, what is your ordinary joe's reaction to a sliding car - say they've barreled into a corner too fast.
The car's understeering - do they slam on the brakes? probably, but what do they do first - they COMPLETELY lift off the throttle... this one act throws the back of the car round a pivot point and they're looking the way they've came - or out of a hedge...
This happens when driving out of the envelope as it were, but it does still happen - you can't be expected to learn car-control from the first time you end up in a situation so why is it so bad if someone manages to wag the tail of their car on the queens black stuff. If it's obviously showing off to a crowd - then yeah, throw the book at them, but if they're simply trying to better their driving skills, at no risk other than to themselves - I really can't see the harm.
Take for example an incident that happened to me a year ago or so, maybe a bit more than a year. Anyway, for anyone in the north east, or specifically the tynemouth/cullercoats area, picture the scene - 2am, chucking it down with rain, the beaconsfield road. A wide section of tarmac (well it used to be anyway) with a green field on one side, and a 40' cliff on the other.
Driving along *under* the limit, cos it's chucking it down and it was bloody hard to see - about 25mph at most - and I hit a pool of standing water with the right hand front wheel, the car slips to the right - I instinctively lift off (not a good thing to do in a FWD car) and the back end steps out... a lot.
So - if I hadn't known what to do (countersteer, apply power and progressively feed out the steering) I could have ended up going backwards off a cliff.
How did I know what to do - by practicing. There's no harm in launching yourself at a deserted roundabout to experiment with the car's capabilities. Of course it isn't right all the time - I've had a few 360 degree spins, but I reckon I'd be a lot more composed and able to act properly IF I got into trouble again, than someone who's sat and followed the letter of the law driving wise for x amount of years.
I have to say this now - I have NEVER 'shown off' or 'performed' when there have been others in the car or others around the area, I've had to get out of situations when there have been other passengers - but those are rare occasions.
Due to the setup of about 80% of uk cars (FWD), they're more likely to understeer than oversteer - but you cause enough weight shift and the car will go into lift-off oversteer. Now, what is your ordinary joe's reaction to a sliding car - say they've barreled into a corner too fast.
The car's understeering - do they slam on the brakes? probably, but what do they do first - they COMPLETELY lift off the throttle... this one act throws the back of the car round a pivot point and they're looking the way they've came - or out of a hedge...
This happens when driving out of the envelope as it were, but it does still happen - you can't be expected to learn car-control from the first time you end up in a situation so why is it so bad if someone manages to wag the tail of their car on the queens black stuff. If it's obviously showing off to a crowd - then yeah, throw the book at them, but if they're simply trying to better their driving skills, at no risk other than to themselves - I really can't see the harm.
Coppers drive like tits as well most are NOT highly trained - Christ on TV the other week a Dog van was shown keeping up with the Traffic cars - driven well beyond its capabilities if you ask me and NOT by a highly trained traffic officer.
I know and have driven with coppers who have done the basic driving course and are a long way off my abilities let alone those of a Fully trained traffic officer.
I know and have driven with coppers who have done the basic driving course and are a long way off my abilities let alone those of a Fully trained traffic officer.
markqelise said: Coppers drive like tits as well most are NOT highly trained - Christ on TV the other week a Dog van was shown keeping up with the Traffic cars - driven well beyond its capabilities if you ask me and NOT by a highly trained traffic officer.
You never know it may have been our very own
markqelise said: Christ on TV the other week a Dog van was shown keeping up with the Traffic cars - driven well beyond its capabilities if you ask me and NOT by a highly trained traffic officer.
Big assumption made there then markqelise. I am a Dog handler, I drive a deisel van and I have a very high Class 1 Mark probably at the upper end of the scale in the country. That has not stopped me being involved in 'incidents' or keeping up with Traffic cars when the conditions are such that the performance of the van will allow. It has not stopped me having commings together (although I have never hit another member of the public that has not deserved to be hit. A target if you like).
The stereotypical asumption you make is that because the roll the person is in, makes him/her a specific level in regard to your judgement. Very bad practice in life to do that sort of thing becasue most of the time, You cannot and do not know someone elses qualifications or abilities
I know and have driven with coppers who have done the basic driving course and are a long way off my abilities let alone those of a Fully trained traffic officer.
And I would be honoured to make such a judgement about your driving if I was ever in the position to be able to do so
Drivers that have been through all the different courses available to them by the Police Service have naturally different abilities. Some are excellent. Some are not so excellent, some are crap but manage to achieve the standard to gain the classification.
You only have to look at the TV's 'Britains worst driver' to see that these people are capable of getting a test under their belts and then being allowed onto the roads.
One thing that I have found is that in all tests of competence, there are a wide degree of ability. the same goes for Police firearms carriers. Some have a natural ability to score very highly. Others struggle to gain the minimum marks.
Also what I have found is that people who have an overinflated impression of their own abilities, very often have a very large dose of pride before their fall.
I do not know you Markqelise. You may be naturally gifted at driving. First class driving however is much more than being able to throw a car around a course and make it 'handle' to its and the drivers fullest extents. I would be very interested to assess your self assessment.
What is also apparent is that whatever our ability, we are all still human and all still make mistakes regardless of our abilities in any multi tasking or singular actions we may chose to make.
>> Edited by madcop on Wednesday 2nd April 10:49
Have to agree with Madcop. I cant see that theres any circumstances where oversteer on the road could be anything other than iffy at the least, and dangerous at the worst.
Maybe im biased or sommat, but i prefer my tyres not to skid and slip, oversteer isnt the fastest way round thru the corner, but is certainly the fastest wayto casualty.
standsbyforhyperflamingfromreardriveafficionados
Maybe im biased or sommat, but i prefer my tyres not to skid and slip, oversteer isnt the fastest way round thru the corner, but is certainly the fastest wayto casualty.
standsbyforhyperflamingfromreardriveafficionados
deltaf said: Have to agree with Madcop. I cant see that theres any circumstances where oversteer on the road could be anything other than iffy at the least, and dangerous at the worst.
Maybe im biased or sommat, but i prefer my tyres not to skid and slip, oversteer isnt the fastest way round thru the corner, but is certainly the fastest wayto casualty.
standsbyforhyperflamingfromreardriveafficionados
Blimey O'reilly Deltaf, shall I send you an application form? Recruiting is suffering greatly recently
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