Terrible accident, speed to blame of course
Discussion
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/li
There has just been an update about this inquest on my local news.
Basically what has been said is that all the lorries were speeding at the time of the accident, they were doing around 50mph when they should have been doing 40mph. Therefore the speeding lorries are to blame for this accident. The driver of the lorry the van was overtaking seems to be getting the blame for this as he was apparently speeding, this has been confirmed by a tachograph expert.
Apparently the minibus was only 1 metre away from completing its overtaking successfully!
After hearing this news I have been thinking of some points:
1. Regardless of what speed the vehicle in front of you is doing, if you plan to overtake then surely you judge this relevant to the speeds being done. You also base this on what is coming the other way surely and the layout of the road ahead + visibility.
2. As has been mentioned on here before, isn't the attitude and driving of most lorry drivers nowadays getting really really bad. I am constantly being cut up at roundabouts and junctions by them, is it because they drive something so big compared to your car they don't give a damn, I mean what are you going to do in a car against a lorry? If this lorry driver saw this minibus overtaking and realised it was going to be extremely tight, wouldn't anyone with a bit of common decency just slow down a little for it. Yes you would be annoyed by this but isn't avoiding an accident on this scale worth just biting your lip for a second?
I do recall someone saying on here that most lorry drivers would rather see an accident than avoid it.
3. Migrant drivers. Most of the ones I see in Lincolnshire drive in appalingly bad ways in cars that seem like death traps. I know they aren't all bad and I don't know anything about the driving standard of the portugese minibus driver, but based on what I have seen most of them are complete nutters on our roads. Maybe its because Lincolnshire's roads aren't as easy to drive as they seem, what with tractors everywhere and a lack of decent overtaking spots. In the local newspaper every week mostly all of the stories of cars being driven without insurance, tax and whilst being drunk involve migrant workers.
4. The section of road that the overtake was being performed on is nice and straight, but overtaking lorries on here safely (as well as anywhere) requires good judgement by the driver.
Now I am no expert on road crash investigations, but I do think that with a little common sense anyone would see that this crash seemed to be caused by the bad judgement of the minibus driver. The overtake seems the be a bit of bad judgement that has gone terriby wrong. The lorry driver could have, and maybe should have slowed down a little, but this doesn't take anything away from the fact that the overtake was the cause. Yes the lorries were speeding, but doing nearly 50mph instead of 40mph isn't a massive difference. So why on earth has the old speeding card been used in the inquest into this tragedy, again?
After hearing the news I must say I was a little annoyed about this. The minibus was on the wrong side of the road at the time of the accident, that is what caused the crash. Regardless of the speed of the lorries this was a bad overtake. Why on earth is it all about speeding speeding speeding again? This is going to play right into the hands of lincs speed camera pratnership isn't it and we will probably see some more cameras appear on this stretch of road now as a result of 6 ksi's in one crash.
I feel for the families of the people involved, especially for the families of the passengers in the minibus and the driver of the oncoming lorry, it was an absolute tragedy that could have been avoided with better judgement from a few parties involved.
There has just been an update about this inquest on my local news.
Basically what has been said is that all the lorries were speeding at the time of the accident, they were doing around 50mph when they should have been doing 40mph. Therefore the speeding lorries are to blame for this accident. The driver of the lorry the van was overtaking seems to be getting the blame for this as he was apparently speeding, this has been confirmed by a tachograph expert.
Apparently the minibus was only 1 metre away from completing its overtaking successfully!
After hearing this news I have been thinking of some points:
1. Regardless of what speed the vehicle in front of you is doing, if you plan to overtake then surely you judge this relevant to the speeds being done. You also base this on what is coming the other way surely and the layout of the road ahead + visibility.
2. As has been mentioned on here before, isn't the attitude and driving of most lorry drivers nowadays getting really really bad. I am constantly being cut up at roundabouts and junctions by them, is it because they drive something so big compared to your car they don't give a damn, I mean what are you going to do in a car against a lorry? If this lorry driver saw this minibus overtaking and realised it was going to be extremely tight, wouldn't anyone with a bit of common decency just slow down a little for it. Yes you would be annoyed by this but isn't avoiding an accident on this scale worth just biting your lip for a second?
I do recall someone saying on here that most lorry drivers would rather see an accident than avoid it.
3. Migrant drivers. Most of the ones I see in Lincolnshire drive in appalingly bad ways in cars that seem like death traps. I know they aren't all bad and I don't know anything about the driving standard of the portugese minibus driver, but based on what I have seen most of them are complete nutters on our roads. Maybe its because Lincolnshire's roads aren't as easy to drive as they seem, what with tractors everywhere and a lack of decent overtaking spots. In the local newspaper every week mostly all of the stories of cars being driven without insurance, tax and whilst being drunk involve migrant workers.
4. The section of road that the overtake was being performed on is nice and straight, but overtaking lorries on here safely (as well as anywhere) requires good judgement by the driver.
Now I am no expert on road crash investigations, but I do think that with a little common sense anyone would see that this crash seemed to be caused by the bad judgement of the minibus driver. The overtake seems the be a bit of bad judgement that has gone terriby wrong. The lorry driver could have, and maybe should have slowed down a little, but this doesn't take anything away from the fact that the overtake was the cause. Yes the lorries were speeding, but doing nearly 50mph instead of 40mph isn't a massive difference. So why on earth has the old speeding card been used in the inquest into this tragedy, again?
After hearing the news I must say I was a little annoyed about this. The minibus was on the wrong side of the road at the time of the accident, that is what caused the crash. Regardless of the speed of the lorries this was a bad overtake. Why on earth is it all about speeding speeding speeding again? This is going to play right into the hands of lincs speed camera pratnership isn't it and we will probably see some more cameras appear on this stretch of road now as a result of 6 ksi's in one crash.
I feel for the families of the people involved, especially for the families of the passengers in the minibus and the driver of the oncoming lorry, it was an absolute tragedy that could have been avoided with better judgement from a few parties involved.
ts funkyrobot said:
Basically what has been said is that all the lorries were speeding at the time of the accident, they were doing around 50mph when they should have been doing 40mph. Therefore the speeding lorries are to blame for this accident. The driver of the lorry the van was overtaking seems to be getting the blame for this as he was apparently speeding, this has been confirmed by a tachograph expert.
Please someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if the road had a 40MPH limit for the trucks, then isn't the minibus speed limit 50MPH?
If so, then the minibus driver must have been 'speeding' too and shouldn't have overtaken. I would have thought the safest situation would be for everyone (in the same direction) to be driving at the same speed. Trucks doing 40 just encourages dangerous overtakes by vans doing 50.
According to local news the Police chap said that the lorry was accelerating immediately before the incident - presumably after reviewing the tacho.
A lot of this seems to go on these days.
No doubt there's an increased presence from the local scammers on that stretch, measuring the speed of overtakers but blindly ignoring drivers who increase their speed through doziness or to 'stop you getting past'.
I can and do avoid most of the A52 east of Nottingham as it's a crowded road. Very difficult to approach the NSL due to so much other traffic.
A lot of this seems to go on these days.
No doubt there's an increased presence from the local scammers on that stretch, measuring the speed of overtakers but blindly ignoring drivers who increase their speed through doziness or to 'stop you getting past'.
I can and do avoid most of the A52 east of Nottingham as it's a crowded road. Very difficult to approach the NSL due to so much other traffic.
Funkyrobot said:
4. The section of road that the overtake was being performed on is nice and straight
Actually it isn't. Travelling from Grantham westbound, the crash took place just before the final bend between Sedgebrook and the Muston Gap turn. The only time I've ever considered an overtake on that stretch was when I passed someone who was driving our Caterham for the first time and was taking it very cautiously (30ish).
Considering there are multiple safe opportunities after the Muston turns, when the road is wide, open and straight (being of course mindful of junctions), it was sheer madness to attempt an overtake where the driver did. He'd also passed another lorry between Sedgebrook and the crash location
The BBC came round (twice) and interviewed Mr Sevener for his professional opinion and he also spent a morning with a crew demonstrating how to overtake properly. The trouble is that 3 hours' worth of filming = 3 minutes of film actually broadcast
The BBC stated that Lincolnshire's roads had lots of 'dangerous, unlit bends'. The Grantham MP suggested straightening them all.
I despair.
Sevener
Edited by sevener on Wednesday 20th December 17:35
OK, first trucker to respond.
I drive 25k miles a year doing local work in my truck, and @ 25k miles a year in my car 'cos I'm a keen motorist. I am on the road all day every day and have been for 30 years or something. Bear in mind also that when in my truck, I don't have the luxury of just putting my foot down to get away from someone driving badly, like you can in a car.
Are truckers worse now than before? In my view no. I'm not saying this because I'm a trucker, I'm saying this because this is my true, honest opinion. Generally speaking, on the whole, I'm not having any more problems with trucks than I was when I started driving trucks some 25 years ago. And on the whole, I don’t really have much trouble with trucks.
OK, here’s my view: I am never cut up by trucks on roundabouts. What does happen is that when in the truck and turning right for instance, because the cab has to be a distance away from the offside curb, to allow for the rear wheels to run alongside the curb, car drivers will cut up my left front corner. My rear wheels will be alongside my curb, but there will be feet, yards possibly, between the nearside curb and the cars wheels. Also, very often if I’m in the middle or right hand lane going on to the roundabout, the car at my nearside will simply drive straight across the roundabout. Straight across the lane markings, straight as in straight as a die, paying no heed to the roundabout being er, round, and in so doing will come within millimetres of my front left corner. This happens ever such a lot. So, when in my truck, I am being carved up by cars all day long, and personally, I don’t think they know they’re doing it.
What about when I’m in my car? When in my car I am never cut up by lorries at roundabouts, never, never, never, never, never never. I don’t know how else I can stress this. If you’re saying that in your car you are constantly being cut up by lorries at roundabouts, then I have to tell you that when I am in my car I am never cut up by lorries. I mean it just never happens, I simply don’t allow it to. To be honest, in my car I am rarely cut up by anybody. Furthermore, I will say that I can also make progress as quick as anybody car for car, so it’s not like I’m dawdling and being over-defensive in my driving.
I'm interested to know how you know he didn't.
But that aside, I've been in a similar situation myself, a long time ago when trucking through Yugoslavia, of all places. A car made a suicidal decision to overtake me, with another truck oncoming. I had a split second to make a decision as what to do. I decided to do nothing, because if I braked, or came off the throttle, I may have done so at the same time as the other guy calls off the overtake and that would have left him hanging out to dry. Like I say, its a split-second decision. A split second decision that I shouldn’t be called upon to make, I might add.
At the end of the day, every single lorry driver you could find to speak to will tell you, whatever happens in a situation like this, whatever the outcome, it will always be the lorry drivers fault. Doesn't matter what the situation, nor what country it happens in. If the lorry driver does nothing, it will be his fault. If the lorry driver tries to avoid an accident but has one anyway, it will be his fault. The outcome will always be the same. It will always be the lorry drivers fault. (You can actually buy a sweat shirt that has a cartoon character of a hairy-arsed lorry driver stood in front a target, with the logo ‘Driver - Blame Here!’
Personally, as someone who obviously mixes and works with lorry drivers, I find it almost inconceivable that a lorry driver will try to get people killed, particularly another lorry driver. And also, if truckers were so bad, the death and injury toll of them would be high. In my 25 years I don’t know personally of one single lorry driver (that I have known on a personal/colleague/friend basis) to have suffered any injury at all, never mind killed at the wheel. Remember trucks have no crash protection. Our feet sit approx 9” from the front of the vehicle. No airbags, no crumple zones, and I have just taken delivery of the first lorry I’ve ever owned that has a drivers seat belt. Yes, that’s true. I passed my HGV test in 1980, and only this past 6 months have I had a seat belt to wear. If truckers were as bad as people say, I should have lost a lot of friends by now.
I do recall someone saying on here that most lorry drivers would rather see an accident than avoid it.
I note you say * most* lorry drivers. In that case, how do people like me drive on the roads day and day out, and have very little trouble with them?
I have to say, when driving my CAR, I have no trouble at all with lorries, and I am perpetually puzzled as to how people reckon they have so much trouble. I know it sounds like I'm blowing my own trumpet here, but honestly, I'm just being open and straight, and what's more, generally speaking I have hardly any trouble with hardly any type of road user at all. The one type of road user I do struggle with is the slow, numpty car driver. (I agree with Clarkson and reckon they're all psychopaths).
We need to talk about this and try to understand this. How come there are those like funkyrobot having a lot of trouble out on the roads, and those like me having very little? There must be a reason. I’m not trying to be smart or clever, nor am I trying to be facetious, honestly. I’m being absolutely straight. We should talk about this.
funkyrobot said:
. As has been mentioned on here before, isn't the attitude and driving of most lorry drivers nowadays getting really really bad.
I drive 25k miles a year doing local work in my truck, and @ 25k miles a year in my car 'cos I'm a keen motorist. I am on the road all day every day and have been for 30 years or something. Bear in mind also that when in my truck, I don't have the luxury of just putting my foot down to get away from someone driving badly, like you can in a car.
Are truckers worse now than before? In my view no. I'm not saying this because I'm a trucker, I'm saying this because this is my true, honest opinion. Generally speaking, on the whole, I'm not having any more problems with trucks than I was when I started driving trucks some 25 years ago. And on the whole, I don’t really have much trouble with trucks.
funkyrobot said:
I am constantly being cut up at roundabouts and junctions by them, is it because they drive something so big compared to your car they don't give a damn, I mean what are you going to do in a car against a lorry? .
OK, here’s my view: I am never cut up by trucks on roundabouts. What does happen is that when in the truck and turning right for instance, because the cab has to be a distance away from the offside curb, to allow for the rear wheels to run alongside the curb, car drivers will cut up my left front corner. My rear wheels will be alongside my curb, but there will be feet, yards possibly, between the nearside curb and the cars wheels. Also, very often if I’m in the middle or right hand lane going on to the roundabout, the car at my nearside will simply drive straight across the roundabout. Straight across the lane markings, straight as in straight as a die, paying no heed to the roundabout being er, round, and in so doing will come within millimetres of my front left corner. This happens ever such a lot. So, when in my truck, I am being carved up by cars all day long, and personally, I don’t think they know they’re doing it.
What about when I’m in my car? When in my car I am never cut up by lorries at roundabouts, never, never, never, never, never never. I don’t know how else I can stress this. If you’re saying that in your car you are constantly being cut up by lorries at roundabouts, then I have to tell you that when I am in my car I am never cut up by lorries. I mean it just never happens, I simply don’t allow it to. To be honest, in my car I am rarely cut up by anybody. Furthermore, I will say that I can also make progress as quick as anybody car for car, so it’s not like I’m dawdling and being over-defensive in my driving.
funkyrobot said:
If this lorry driver saw this minibus overtaking and realised it was going to be extremely tight, wouldn't anyone with a bit of common decency just slow down a little for it.
I'm interested to know how you know he didn't.
But that aside, I've been in a similar situation myself, a long time ago when trucking through Yugoslavia, of all places. A car made a suicidal decision to overtake me, with another truck oncoming. I had a split second to make a decision as what to do. I decided to do nothing, because if I braked, or came off the throttle, I may have done so at the same time as the other guy calls off the overtake and that would have left him hanging out to dry. Like I say, its a split-second decision. A split second decision that I shouldn’t be called upon to make, I might add.
At the end of the day, every single lorry driver you could find to speak to will tell you, whatever happens in a situation like this, whatever the outcome, it will always be the lorry drivers fault. Doesn't matter what the situation, nor what country it happens in. If the lorry driver does nothing, it will be his fault. If the lorry driver tries to avoid an accident but has one anyway, it will be his fault. The outcome will always be the same. It will always be the lorry drivers fault. (You can actually buy a sweat shirt that has a cartoon character of a hairy-arsed lorry driver stood in front a target, with the logo ‘Driver - Blame Here!’
Personally, as someone who obviously mixes and works with lorry drivers, I find it almost inconceivable that a lorry driver will try to get people killed, particularly another lorry driver. And also, if truckers were so bad, the death and injury toll of them would be high. In my 25 years I don’t know personally of one single lorry driver (that I have known on a personal/colleague/friend basis) to have suffered any injury at all, never mind killed at the wheel. Remember trucks have no crash protection. Our feet sit approx 9” from the front of the vehicle. No airbags, no crumple zones, and I have just taken delivery of the first lorry I’ve ever owned that has a drivers seat belt. Yes, that’s true. I passed my HGV test in 1980, and only this past 6 months have I had a seat belt to wear. If truckers were as bad as people say, I should have lost a lot of friends by now.
funkyrobot said:
I do recall someone saying on here that most lorry drivers would rather see an accident than avoid it.
I note you say * most* lorry drivers. In that case, how do people like me drive on the roads day and day out, and have very little trouble with them?
I have to say, when driving my CAR, I have no trouble at all with lorries, and I am perpetually puzzled as to how people reckon they have so much trouble. I know it sounds like I'm blowing my own trumpet here, but honestly, I'm just being open and straight, and what's more, generally speaking I have hardly any trouble with hardly any type of road user at all. The one type of road user I do struggle with is the slow, numpty car driver. (I agree with Clarkson and reckon they're all psychopaths).
We need to talk about this and try to understand this. How come there are those like funkyrobot having a lot of trouble out on the roads, and those like me having very little? There must be a reason. I’m not trying to be smart or clever, nor am I trying to be facetious, honestly. I’m being absolutely straight. We should talk about this.
Well, personally, I HAVE noticed that lorry drivers have become more aggressive (or they have just stopped caring about the world around them!) Hardly a day goes by that I don't have climb on my brakes because an HGV decides to use his bulk to force an overtake in front of me or use the mass of his vehicle as a reason to shove out in front of me at a roundabout.
Having said all that, I don't think the average standard of car driving in the UK is getting any better either and I don't really see why HGV's need to travel any slower than the rest of us. It just makes for speed differentials, and that's a bad thing.
Having said all that, I don't think the average standard of car driving in the UK is getting any better either and I don't really see why HGV's need to travel any slower than the rest of us. It just makes for speed differentials, and that's a bad thing.
TBH I agree, I rarely if ever have trouble with trucks. White vans - sure no end of hassle but trucks, very rarely. Only hassle I've had is having to put on the anchors on the MWay as they pull out in front too close to me but even that is rare.
Maybe it is because I'm aware that a truck needs a lot of room to manouver? I certainly wouldn't get too close to a truck on a roundabout. Wait off the back corner until the maouver is complete, then come past.
As for the truck "putting his foot down", the acceleration of a truck is bugger all so how can that possibly be an issue??
Rob
Maybe it is because I'm aware that a truck needs a lot of room to manouver? I certainly wouldn't get too close to a truck on a roundabout. Wait off the back corner until the maouver is complete, then come past.
As for the truck "putting his foot down", the acceleration of a truck is bugger all so how can that possibly be an issue??
Rob
heebeegeetee said:
funkyrobot said:
If this lorry driver saw this minibus overtaking and realised it was going to be extremely tight, wouldn't anyone with a bit of common decency just slow down a little for it.
I'm interested to know how you know he didn't.alphadog said:
According to local news the Police chap said that the lorry was accelerating immediately before the incident - presumably after reviewing the tacho.
Can I quote the highway code?
144: Being overtaken. If a driver is trying to overtake you, maintain a steady course and speed, slowing down if necessary to let the vehicle pass. Never obstruct drivers who wish to pass. Speeding up or driving unpredictably while someone is overtaking you is dangerous. Drop back to maintain a two-second gap if someone overtakes and pulls into the gap in front of you.
I wonder if most, if not all, fatalities on the road can be put down to lack of application of the principles we are supposed to have been taught during our driver training? I wonder if the truck driver who allegedly accelerated at the time of the crash has ever looked at the highway code since passing his test?
Rob_the_Sparky said:
TBH I agree, I rarely if ever have trouble with trucks. White vans - sure no end of hassle but trucks, very rarely. Only hassle I've had is having to put on the anchors on the MWay as they pull out in front too close to me but even that is rare.
Maybe it is because I'm aware that a truck needs a lot of room to manouver? I certainly wouldn't get too close to a truck on a roundabout. Wait off the back corner until the maouver is complete, then come past.
Maybe it is because I'm aware that a truck needs a lot of room to manouver? I certainly wouldn't get too close to a truck on a roundabout. Wait off the back corner until the maouver is complete, then come past.
Same here. You know what they're going to do in advance, so you don't occupy that bit of space.
streaky said:
heebeegeetee said:
funkyrobot said:
If this lorry driver saw this minibus overtaking and realised it was going to be extremely tight, wouldn't anyone with a bit of common decency just slow down a little for it.
I'm interested to know how you know he didn't.One has to assume that the statement was made in good faith, however as a bare statement it does not tell us anything about circumstances.
Heebeegeetee mentioned the problem of being overtaken, seeing a situation developing and having to decide if there is anything you can do to reduce the risk. Hanging someone out to dry on the wrong side of the road is so much easier to do inadvertently in a bigger rig and so much more likely to happen if the overtaking driver makes a poor call. There have been occasions (few recently since so few people attempt any form of overtake ever)when driving a car that I have felt a need to accelerate either to discourage an overtaker from doing something stupid BEFORE he gets alongside me when I have a better view of the road ahead or (perhaps AND?) allow the overtaker the luxury of some space to pull into and a lesser speed differential to overcome when they do abort.
Other times all you can do is keep as far left as practicable, do nothing else except attempt to read the developing situation and start praying.
As for having trouble with trucks - mostly not thought there do seem to be a handful of drivers whose standards and attitudes are less agreeable than the majority. Typically that drive one handed at best with fag in none hand and phone in the other. Not too many around though and not usually the bigger haulage concerns.
I pay special attention to anything with non-UK plates, all sand and gravel related vehicles or similar types of tipper trucks working out of building sites and the skip carriers.
Other than that I have respect for the drivers since the typically hourly rate of pay, as I hear it, is not so great that would want to spend 8 hours a day trundling around nose to tail on motorway at what seems like an incredibly slow speed (based on the odd coach trip I have experienced at higher speeds) or stuck at 40 (that must feel like it is standing still) on A roads.
Having driven a few vehicles over th years which were, shall we say, 'challenged' on the power front (Leyland Chassis with 1.8 engine and coachbiult motorhome body for example (Or even Commer - much worse!) and 36ft long Transit/Trailer rigs with loading ramps acting as permanent air brakes, I think I have a vague understanding of the issue truckers face trying to maintain momentum. I have in times past on emptier motorways than we have today spent many an hour passing and being passed by the same trucks.
It always puzzled me that one minute I would be bowling past them yet at the next slight incline or a curve that turned me into the wind I would perhaps lose 20mph and they would come rumbling past once more. I understood the reasons why it happened but the effect always seemed greater than expected.
Mind you despite the understanding it is still very annoying when a truck pulls out to overtake another on a 2 lane DC or motorway and then spends the next 3 weeks attempting to complete the pass.
I agree that it is a very difficult decision to make when someone is alongside and the overtake looks as if it is going pear-shaped. If you slam on the brakes and the overtaker does at the same time then they are still going to be stuck on the outside. Presumably its worse in a truck as it will be more difficult to tell exactly where alongside you the car is.
I assume in this case that the oncoming lorry braked?
Incidentially I have no problems with lorry drivers, as I wouldn't like to be in their position. Particularly having seen all the trucks parked up on the M20 as part of Operation Stack recently.
I assume in this case that the oncoming lorry braked?
Incidentially I have no problems with lorry drivers, as I wouldn't like to be in their position. Particularly having seen all the trucks parked up on the M20 as part of Operation Stack recently.
streaky said:
heebeegeetee said:
funkyrobot said:
If this lorry driver saw this minibus overtaking and realised it was going to be extremely tight, wouldn't anyone with a bit of common decency just slow down a little for it.
I'm interested to know how you know he didn't.I can't find this quote anywhere - can someone show me a link to the quote re the truck accelerating?
This is an intersting piece:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/en
heebeegeetee said:
Very interesting.
As I understand it Portugal does not have the best driving standards in the world to start with so this may explain a lot.
I have also been wondering about how many of the casualties and involved drivers may be from places where standards required are not as significant as the UK. I include the casualties on the basis that the nature of work may affect the the number of people present at the accident (similar events with minibuses on level crossings for example) and that the passengers may not bring any influence to bear on the driver for his or her driving standards.
Perhaps some parts of the world are exporting their traffic casualties to the UK?
I expect the answer is to install some speed cameras.
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