Discussion
I have just been looking through last months edition of Kitcar Magazine (Dec 06) and saw an alarming article; (bottom of page 48 headed thought for the month).
Quote; From the National Street Rod Association Forum.
"The NSRA are very worried about the DVLA moves to legislate modified cars off the road, so keep up with their site and battle. When the Germans tell Whitehall to ensure EC-wide harmonized motoring law SVA and Kit cars could go down the toilet as well. Enjoy being able to choose windscreen wiper blade brands while you can!!"
Did anyone else see this and what's it all about?
Bill Bob
Quote; From the National Street Rod Association Forum.
"The NSRA are very worried about the DVLA moves to legislate modified cars off the road, so keep up with their site and battle. When the Germans tell Whitehall to ensure EC-wide harmonized motoring law SVA and Kit cars could go down the toilet as well. Enjoy being able to choose windscreen wiper blade brands while you can!!"
Did anyone else see this and what's it all about?
Bill Bob
Stop Pratting about and start Lobbying, It was bound to happen , get on to any local MPs that enjoy motoring, AA , RAC the whole bloody lot of them and kick up a stink, get on to the MAX power brigade, Hot Rodders etc otherwise you will end up like here!
You cant say oh when they have taken it away from you! Get the mags onside, newspapers and TV shows and cause hell!
Oh and happy new year for an hours time from here.
You cant say oh when they have taken it away from you! Get the mags onside, newspapers and TV shows and cause hell!
Oh and happy new year for an hours time from here.
Edited by Ozzie Dave on Sunday 31st December 12:57
Had a look on the NSRA Forum maybe its this that there on about, www.nsra.org.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24221
jgmadkit said:
Havn't read the pdf's but if the linked forum thread above is a summary of whats proposed then I don't see any particular problem with it. it's just bringing modified cars in line with kits, probably quite sensible if you ask me.
I agree - although within certain constraints: I know of a lot of people who just stick a big engine in their car, and expect the existing brakes and chassis to be able to keep up with the upgrade. Looking at the PDF - automatically allocating Q plates to rebuilt vehicles is a bit strict, I think (but it's only the BiB that suggested this - and it's not explicitly part of the recommendations).
Insofaras kit cars, there doesn't really seem to be too many things different. Tightening of "one reconditioned component" regulations.
Rebodied conversions may be different though - a possible alternative registration mark for this class of vehicle.
tribbles said:
jgmadkit said:
Havn't read the pdf's but if the linked forum thread above is a summary of whats proposed then I don't see any particular problem with it. it's just bringing modified cars in line with kits, probably quite sensible if you ask me.
I agree - although within certain constraints: I know of a lot of people who just stick a big engine in their car, and expect the existing brakes and chassis to be able to keep up with the upgrade. Looking at the PDF - automatically allocating Q plates to rebuilt vehicles is a bit strict, I think (but it's only the BiB that suggested this - and it's not explicitly part of the recommendations).
Insofaras kit cars, there doesn't really seem to be too many things different. Tightening of "one reconditioned component" regulations.
Rebodied conversions may be different though - a possible alternative registration mark for this class of vehicle.
A gradual tightening of the regulations is good, if it keeps the cowboys off the roads, but the reason there are no kit cars in France is because the government regulated them all away, same as with most other european countries. The UK has it incredibly easy compared with most european ountries, and far better than our colonial brethren in Australia.
What the NSRA information is about is to stop the government slowly and surely regulating ALL forms of modified cars off the road in the long run. The kit car guys have got themselves well organised in respect to SVA and such things, but hot rods and other forms of modified cars don't fall so readily into line with the SVA rules, which were not drawn up by people who know anything about older cars.
If you have, for example, a seventies Capri, swap a decent motor into it, better gearbox, stiffen up the chassis, fit new upgraded suspension and brakes, then you are by law supposed to re-register the car and go through a compete SVA, which means an awful lot of stuff that was perfect legal and acceptable in the seventies on millions of cars is not okay nowadays. Your car won't pass the SVA, not without a complete rebuild, including new EU approved window glass, new smooth-edged dashboard, new rounded switches, new lights, new exterior handles, mirrors, bumpers, etc etc etc.
You may thing this doesn't affect you kit car guys, but do you really think the government, and the Brussels EU bods, are going to suddenly stop pumping out new 'safety' regulations once they have basically outlawed hot rods and modified cars off the roads?
No Way Jose. Their are people whose job in life it is to dream up 'safety' regulations and try and push them through. they are pushing them all the time, and the likes of the NSRA and the FBHVC are continually fighting against them, but most people never see that side of, they just carry on with their head in the sand, letting other people fight for the rights of car modifiers and builders.
The 'safety men' will eventually start looking at high performance cars, fuel greedy cars, fast car, low cars, kit cars, dull coloured cars, unusual cars, and the list will go on until we are ALL driving boring little 1.1 litre hybrid snoozemobiles.
This was all touched on last year in Practical Performance Car magazine, with letters to MPs getting a reply from the transport Minister saying that there were to be no new tests for modified cars. Of course we all know how trustworthy politicians are...
However, those of us old enough (like me) will remember similar fears of an end to kit cars etc when the SVA test was brought in, and it didn't happen.
Going even further back there were similar predictions when car tax and VAT started getting applied to kit cars, instantly increasing prices by around 30% but it didn't happen.
OK, France and various other countries have legislation that pretty much kills off kit cars, but then they never had much - if anything - of a kit car industry anyway so there were no 'national interests' to protect.
So yes, we need to keep an eye on this things and if necessary speak up about them, but don't automatically assume the worst.
However, those of us old enough (like me) will remember similar fears of an end to kit cars etc when the SVA test was brought in, and it didn't happen.
Going even further back there were similar predictions when car tax and VAT started getting applied to kit cars, instantly increasing prices by around 30% but it didn't happen.
OK, France and various other countries have legislation that pretty much kills off kit cars, but then they never had much - if anything - of a kit car industry anyway so there were no 'national interests' to protect.
So yes, we need to keep an eye on this things and if necessary speak up about them, but don't automatically assume the worst.
grahambell said:
This was all touched on last year in Practical Performance Car magazine, with letters to MPs getting a reply from the transport Minister saying that there were to be no new tests for modified cars. Of course we all know how trustworthy politicians are...
However, those of us old enough (like me) will remember similar fears of an end to kit cars etc when the SVA test was brought in, and it didn't happen.
Going even further back there were similar predictions when car tax and VAT started getting applied to kit cars, instantly increasing prices by around 30% but it didn't happen.
OK, France and various other countries have legislation that pretty much kills off kit cars, but then they never had much - if anything - of a kit car industry anyway so there were no 'national interests' to protect.
So yes, we need to keep an eye on this things and if necessary speak up about them, but don't automatically assume the worst.
However, those of us old enough (like me) will remember similar fears of an end to kit cars etc when the SVA test was brought in, and it didn't happen.
Going even further back there were similar predictions when car tax and VAT started getting applied to kit cars, instantly increasing prices by around 30% but it didn't happen.
OK, France and various other countries have legislation that pretty much kills off kit cars, but then they never had much - if anything - of a kit car industry anyway so there were no 'national interests' to protect.
So yes, we need to keep an eye on this things and if necessary speak up about them, but don't automatically assume the worst.
When the SVA was first brought in it was as a result of extensive negotiations between hot rod/kit car clubs and the government killjoys, who had originally wanted full Type Approval for ALL newly built cars put on the road, which involves crash testing. I don't think that would be acceptable even to the kit car fraternity: build a car, smash it to bits to ensure it is safe, then build another to drive. Instead the SVA was agreed upon, and type approval was restricted unless you planned to build (I think) 300 of the same car for road use.
As I mentioned above, the average Joe has little idea what is going on in the background, with both cars and bikes. European parliament bods are continually trying to bring in regulations to limit ALL forms of motoring fun, and the likes of MAG (Motorcycle Action Group) have full time members whose job it is to watch and fight the never ending legislation.
SVA is not a new thing, and has been in place for over ten years, but it is only fairly recently they have decided to tighten up on control of it, in the thinly veiled guise of combating car theft.
If you are only into kit cars, then no worries, but remember: rust never sleeps, and neither do the EU beaurocrats whose sole purpose in life is to make up new rules and regulations about motoring.
I think that's a bit unfair.
You actually have the "government killjoys" to THANK for still being able to build kits!
The European Commission brought in EC Whole Vehicle Type Approval in 1996. The UK government, realising that it would kill off not just the kit car industry but also the rest of Britain's "Specialist" vehicle industry, negotiated not one but TWO opt-outs. The first was UK Low Volume Type Approval - up to 500 cars / year and a much reduced set of requirements but still some destructive tests. Realising that this still wouldn't help kit car builders, they also introduced SVA, with no destructive testing required. This worked quite well for a couple of years until the scheme was "hijacked" by the "grey importers" who put through vast numbers of cars that wereactually perfectly capable of meeting much tougher requirements. It was to stop these people taking the p155 that the SVA scheme was tightened up.
You actually have the "government killjoys" to THANK for still being able to build kits!
The European Commission brought in EC Whole Vehicle Type Approval in 1996. The UK government, realising that it would kill off not just the kit car industry but also the rest of Britain's "Specialist" vehicle industry, negotiated not one but TWO opt-outs. The first was UK Low Volume Type Approval - up to 500 cars / year and a much reduced set of requirements but still some destructive tests. Realising that this still wouldn't help kit car builders, they also introduced SVA, with no destructive testing required. This worked quite well for a couple of years until the scheme was "hijacked" by the "grey importers" who put through vast numbers of cars that wereactually perfectly capable of meeting much tougher requirements. It was to stop these people taking the p155 that the SVA scheme was tightened up.
Avocet said:
I think that's a bit unfair.
You actually have the "government killjoys" to THANK for still being able to build kits!
The European Commission brought in EC Whole Vehicle Type Approval in 1996. The UK government, realising that it would kill off not just the kit car industry but also the rest of Britain's "Specialist" vehicle industry, negotiated not one but TWO opt-outs. The first was UK Low Volume Type Approval - up to 500 cars / year and a much reduced set of requirements but still some destructive tests. Realising that this still wouldn't help kit car builders, they also introduced SVA, with no destructive testing required. This worked quite well for a couple of years until the scheme was "hijacked" by the "grey importers" who put through vast numbers of cars that wereactually perfectly capable of meeting much tougher requirements. It was to stop these people taking the p155 that the SVA scheme was tightened up.
You actually have the "government killjoys" to THANK for still being able to build kits!
The European Commission brought in EC Whole Vehicle Type Approval in 1996. The UK government, realising that it would kill off not just the kit car industry but also the rest of Britain's "Specialist" vehicle industry, negotiated not one but TWO opt-outs. The first was UK Low Volume Type Approval - up to 500 cars / year and a much reduced set of requirements but still some destructive tests. Realising that this still wouldn't help kit car builders, they also introduced SVA, with no destructive testing required. This worked quite well for a couple of years until the scheme was "hijacked" by the "grey importers" who put through vast numbers of cars that wereactually perfectly capable of meeting much tougher requirements. It was to stop these people taking the p155 that the SVA scheme was tightened up.
You think that the government decided to protect the miniscule kit car and specials industry all off their own initiative??? So there's no chance that hundreds of kit car, hot rod and specials enthusiasts lobbied and petitioned to keep their hobby alive????
The government let the British car and bike industry fall to pieces and wash itself down the toilet, so I can hardly see them volunteering any quarter for a few thousand kit car builders just out of the goodness of their hearts.
I'm unclear, does new/proposed legislation intend to STOP modified or kit-built cars being put on the road in the first place or does it also intend to REMOVE modified cars already on our streets (or perhaps force them through some sort of SVA-type test every time a brake caliper or carburettor is changed or upgraded) ?
I only ask because my fireblade-engined F27/Locost carries a 1973 registration plate and has been modified on a pretty constant basis since its original build and now contains almost nothing of the original car...
I only ask because my fireblade-engined F27/Locost carries a 1973 registration plate and has been modified on a pretty constant basis since its original build and now contains almost nothing of the original car...
From what I understand, the MOT station would decide whether it's modified or not - since you've already gone through the modification (and re-registration process [more importantly]), then you should be safe.
The MOT station won't know how a (more or less) unique car has been modified.
However, if your V5 says it's a "Ford Escort" (which it isn't), then you'll have to get it tested.
Edited to add: The BiB may also deem your car modified if they stop you on the road.
The MOT station won't know how a (more or less) unique car has been modified.
However, if your V5 says it's a "Ford Escort" (which it isn't), then you'll have to get it tested.
Edited to add: The BiB may also deem your car modified if they stop you on the road.
Edited by tribbles on Wednesday 10th January 09:23
user d said:
I'm unclear, does new/proposed legislation intend to STOP modified or kit-built cars being put on the road in the first place or does it also intend to REMOVE modified cars already on our streets (or perhaps force them through some sort of SVA-type test every time a brake caliper or carburettor is changed or upgraded) ?
I only ask because my fireblade-engined F27/Locost carries a 1973 registration plate and has been modified on a pretty constant basis since its original build and now contains almost nothing of the original car...
I only ask because my fireblade-engined F27/Locost carries a 1973 registration plate and has been modified on a pretty constant basis since its original build and now contains almost nothing of the original car...
The more strict attitude towards the current regulations is to check into whether your car is basically registered correctly to start with. And if not, to get it inspected and registered correctly. Kit car owners in general seem to feel this latest tightening up of the regulations is just to clamp down on the 'big engine and stock brakes' mob as mentioned by Tribbles earlier, but in fact it will jump all over ANYBODY who has a car on the road that is not exactly as the log book says.
If you have correctly SVA'd your car, back when it was first built, then you have no real problem, but thousands of people haven't.
If your car was registered in 1973 AS a Locost then you may well have no problems, but I fear your log book probably says Ford Escort of Triumph herald or similar. Basically your car is totally illegal and falsely registered, following the letter of the law.
Several years ago there was an amnesty arranged by the government/DVLA so that people with kit cars that had been incorrectly registered could get themselves sorted out, but that has long since gone by now.
There are hundreds, if not thousands, of kit cars, hot rods, specials etc registered on some car-of-convenience log book that they found laying about, or maybe the reg of the car that donated the axles, or engine, say a 1974 Jaguar that gave its axles to a Cobra, that now wears the Jag log book. That is totally illegal and WILL need SVA and re-registering, if you were to follow the letter of the law.
My Morris Eight hot rod has very little of the original car left, just the bodyshell in fact, but it IS basically a 1934 Morris Eight, and like your car has gone through continual upgrade and modifications, but it is STILL registered as a Morris Eight, has never changed mtnat, and looks like a Morris Eight. It wasn't a kit car built from a pile of new bits, wasn't put together from stolen parts, I didn't buy the log book off Ebay and stick it on a car I'd built from scratch, but the government still don't see it that way. That is one of the arguments hot rodders have, that just changing a bunch of bits doesn't make it a 'new' car.
That is why there is still a long way to go, a lot of fighting to do, so we can still enjoy our hobby/lifestyle without being legislated off the road entirely.
The UK has a massive and rich motoring history, which is why we are still pretty much able to build what we want, but most of europe has almost zero interest in classics, kit cars, hot rods, and as such they don't really put up a huge fight when Brussels dictates what the rules should be changed to, and that is how the new EU regulations will sweep us all away unless we fight back on a daily basis. Joining clubs who have representation with VOSA/DVLA and any other government motoring bodies is one way to help preserve our lifestyle.
I'm a member of both the National Street Rod Association (NSRA) and the National association of Street Clubs (NASC), both of whom are actively lobbying the government bods (DVLA/VOSA)and discussing the legislative process so that nosey busybody beurocrats don't just blanket steamroll over our whole hobby.
Big industry would rather we all just bought brand new stock cars every three years, and believe me, big industry has a lot of say in what happens to the laws of this country.
Sorry for the long rant, but a lot of motoring 'enthusiasts' have their heads buried deeply in the sand about these regulations and will happily sit back as their hobby is wiped out.
Have a read of these articles, some useful info:
www.totalkitcar.com/tkc_article_125.php
www.totalkitcar.com/tech_registration.php
http://direct.gov.uk/Motoring/BuyingA
Edited by King Herald on Wednesday 10th January 13:55
tribbles said:
I agree - although within certain constraints: I know of a lot of people who just stick a big engine in their car, and expect the existing brakes and chassis to be able to keep up with the upgrade. Further to my waffle in the last post (yes, I'm bored at work) the SVA does NOTHING to address the above boy racers who stick big motors in their cars and retain stock brakes.
For example: I buy a stock old Ford Pop, stick a mahoosive engine in it and drive it round the streets on its stock brakes and suspension. Sounds stupid? Yes it does, but it is PERFECTLY LEGAL! No inspection is required other than standard MOT once a year.
Now, another, smarter, guy takes above ford Pop, sticks modern brakes on it, modern suspension front and back, makes it handle and brake superbly, makes it SAFE......and it then HAS to go for SVA inspection.
Sounds incredibly stupid doesn't it? Yes. And that is the argument/negotiations the hot rod and specials builders are currently having with VOSA/DVLA.
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