These 20 limits around up here

[imbecile]

First off, I assume that a twenty limit where the circle is green instead of red is not binding. Am I correct?

Two further questions:

Are these "20 when lights flash" (where the 20 looks like a normal 20 sign) binding? And, if so, what if you park at a shop within this limit when it's 30 (or even 60!) and set off when the lights are flashing at the enterance, unknown to yourself?
If the above is enforcing, what about when there is a static national repeater sign after it within the 20 zone?

And a final question:

Without repeaters, at what point does the default limit take hold?

If it is relevant, I am talking about Scotland.

And a general question:

Why on earth does lighting mean a thirty limit within England or Wales, whilst in Scotland it much more sensibly means that only when the road is not of A class standard?

[tvrgit]

imbecile said:

First off, I assume that a twenty limit where the circle is green instead of red is not binding. Am I correct?

20 in a green circle is advisory only - there is no traffic regulation order enforcing the 20.

imbecile said:

Are these "20 when lights flash" (where the 20 looks like a normal 20 sign) binding?

Some authorities have made the necessary traffic regulation order so that legally, when the lights at the 20 signs are flashing, the limit is enforceable. Some haven't, so the limit isn't.

imbecile said:

And, if so, what if you park at a shop within this limit when it's 30 (or even 60!) and set off when the lights are flashing at the enterance, unknown to yourself?
If the above is enforcing, what about when there is a static national repeater sign after it within the 20 zone?

Don't know

imbecile said:

And a final question:

Without repeaters, at what point does the default limit take hold?

There is no legal requirement, just that repeater signs should be put up at "regular" intervals. There is non-statutory advice which gives advisory distances, which vary according to the speed limit and the type of road.

imbecile said:

If it is relevant, I am talking about Scotland.

And a general question:

Why on earth does lighting mean a thirty limit within England or Wales, whilst in Scotland it much more sensibly means that only when the road is not of A class standard?

The presence of street lighting is enough in Scotland or England, to indicate to the driver the default limit is 30, whether on an A-road or otherwise (apart from motorways). A traffic order is required to introduce a 30 limit on an A-road, but no traffic order is required to introduce a 30 mph speed limit on any "other" road that is lit - the lighting makes it 30 by default.

So to the driver, there is no difference - the driver sees a 30 sign at the start of the limit and lighting, so the limit stays at 30 throughout.

The difference is purely procedural.

Note - I am talking about Scotland here. I don't know if the procedure in England is different or not, but I don't think so: I am sure that the Road Traffic Regulation Act and the Statutory Instrument which sets out the procedure for making Orders, are both UK-wide.

[flemke]

tvrgit said:

imbecile said:

Are these "20 when lights flash" (where the 20 looks like a normal 20 sign) binding?

Some authorities have made the necessary traffic regulation order so that legally, when the lights at the 20 signs are flashing, the limit is enforceable. Some haven't, so the limit isn't.

Are you saying that the same system is employed in different places, in some of which it is binding and in others of which it is not?

[tvrgit]

flemke said:

tvrgit said:

imbecile said:

Are these "20 when lights flash" (where the 20 looks like a normal 20 sign) binding?

Some authorities have made the necessary traffic regulation order so that legally, when the lights at the 20 signs are flashing, the limit is enforceable. Some haven't, so the limit isn't.

Are you saying that the same system is employed in different places, in some of which it is binding and in others of which it is not?

I don't know for sure - I do know that some authorities have told me about the grief they have had in processing the TRO before putting these things up. IMHO, if the limit is to be enforceable (by the police) then it must have an Order behind it.

I was perhaps being a wee bit facetious in saying "some haven't" - I couldn't point to any for certain, but I do suspect that it is likely to be inevitable that some authorities haven't - most people in local authorities do know the necessary procedures but there are a lot who don't... so it would be correct to add "possibly" in my original post.

[flemke]

tvrgit said:

flemke said:

tvrgit said:

imbecile said:

Are these "20 when lights flash" (where the 20 looks like a normal 20 sign) binding?

Some authorities have made the necessary traffic regulation order so that legally, when the lights at the 20 signs are flashing, the limit is enforceable. Some haven't, so the limit isn't.

Are you saying that the same system is employed in different places, in some of which it is binding and in others of which it is not?

I don't know for sure - I do know that some authorities have told me about the grief they have had in processing the TRO before putting these things up. IMHO, if the limit is to be enforceable (by the police) then it must have an Order behind it.

I was perhaps being a wee bit facetious in saying "some haven't" - I couldn't point to any for certain, but I do suspect that it is likely to be inevitable that some authorities haven't - most people in local authorities do know the necessary procedures but there are a lot who don't... so it would be correct to add "possibly" in my original post.

Okay - so another reason to dig for details if one gets an NIP.

Cheers.