Starting problem 2
Discussion
Similar to Oil Quick's thread, i took my cerb out on New Year's day to show it off to a mate. She hadn't been used for about a week but started first time and was quite lively. We went for a half hour run, brought the car back, stopped outside the garage door to open it say for about 1 min, went to start the car and got the usual buzzing, could hear the fule pump and a solinoid click but nothing else happend. I have tried to start her this morning when cold and still the same symptoms as before. I can't hear the starter clicking at all. Are there any any other fuses that could cause this? i have had her seviced recently (November) and the big fuse was replaced so i dont think this is the problem, however as i dont know where it is could sombody tell me so i can check it.
The battery and every thing else seems to be in order.
Thanks in advance.
Regards
Andy.
The battery and every thing else seems to be in order.
Thanks in advance.
Regards
Andy.
Are you sure the battery is OK?
I had something similar a while ago on the chim. Not used for a while, started first time, failed every other attempt.
Turned out some of the battery cells had died but the battery as a whole had just enough life in it for the initial start up. Subsequently it could hold no charge - so therefore never started again - although it had enough charge to whirr the fuel pump - not enough to engage the starter motor.
New battery solved the problem.
I had something similar a while ago on the chim. Not used for a while, started first time, failed every other attempt.
Turned out some of the battery cells had died but the battery as a whole had just enough life in it for the initial start up. Subsequently it could hold no charge - so therefore never started again - although it had enough charge to whirr the fuel pump - not enough to engage the starter motor.
New battery solved the problem.
Edited by FunkyGibbon on Wednesday 3rd January 13:14
FunkyGibbon said:
Are you sure the battery is OK?
I had something similar a while ago on the chim. Not used for a while, started first time, failed every other attempt.
Turned out some of the battery cells had died but the battery as a whole had just enough life in it for the initial start up. Subsequently it could hold no charge - so therefore never started again - although it had enough charge to whirr the fuel pump - not enough to engage the starter motor.
New battery solved the problem.
I had something similar a while ago on the chim. Not used for a while, started first time, failed every other attempt.
Turned out some of the battery cells had died but the battery as a whole had just enough life in it for the initial start up. Subsequently it could hold no charge - so therefore never started again - although it had enough charge to whirr the fuel pump - not enough to engage the starter motor.
New battery solved the problem.
Edited by FunkyGibbon on Wednesday 3rd January 13:14
just tested the battery, measured 14v on multy meter, but hows this for "strange but true" opened the door climbed inside to try starting her again, no luck, climbed out and closed the door, the window wouldn't go up and the curtesy light wouldn't go out. I opened and closed the door 7 or 8 times and still the window wouldn't close and the light stayed on. i climed in the car and closed the door and the window worked perfectly. Remaining inside the car I opened and closed the door 4 or 5 times, everything was spot on. I climed out and the window wouldn't close. Are there sensors under the seat or something!!
Thanks for your post though.
does sound odd - there is a good detailed discussion of our problems here:
[url]www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?p=1&f=6&t=306755[/url]
But is odd your battery is good...have you looking at the ecu connectors and there abouts - under the passenger footwell...your mate (who you were showing it off too) may have sh*t himself and kicked it...
[url]www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?p=1&f=6&t=306755[/url]
But is odd your battery is good...have you looking at the ecu connectors and there abouts - under the passenger footwell...your mate (who you were showing it off too) may have sh*t himself and kicked it...
mad mark said:
Check the 30 amp fuses in the boot, I think there are two, I know if one of these are dead the starter stops working.
thanks, i have checked all the fuses in the boot, 30 and 15 amp all are ok.
i am going to try the long button press proceedure after work. i went to check the relays but surprisingly the hand book details a different layout to what i have got i seem to have more free spaces than filled!!!
Thanks to everybody for your input, however i have tested the battery and was getting a 13-14v reading on a multi-meter connecting to the positive post and the oil cap. Having investigated the passenger foot well this is what i have found. The heater unit, wiper switching unit and a 6" x 5" x 2" unit with a label saying "Powercontrol Indusrties". this unit has a large cable and two smallish cables coming out of it one looks like a 2 core given the type of Jack plug and the other is a 3 core given that has a 3 terminal Jack plug (or connector). These didn't appear to be connected to any thing and i cannot find anything to connect them to. Are these for plugging in a computer? Higher up (near your knees and not your feet) i found another two pin Jack plug the same as below but again with nothing apparent to plug it into. All connectors are female. All the other connectors and cables appear to be fine.
I tried the long press of the button and opening the doors, switching on fans etc without any success. I have not tried bump starting it yet but have connected two battery packs at the same time to make sure of enough power and this did nothing over and above the fitted battery. i am not a mechanic but i am a Mechanical engineer so would like to try and fix this before hitting the wallet, so excuse the dumbass question. Would the car start with a push if it was only the starter? and does the starter just fail without warning or sound?
Again any pointers would be helpful.
I tried the long press of the button and opening the doors, switching on fans etc without any success. I have not tried bump starting it yet but have connected two battery packs at the same time to make sure of enough power and this did nothing over and above the fitted battery. i am not a mechanic but i am a Mechanical engineer so would like to try and fix this before hitting the wallet, so excuse the dumbass question. Would the car start with a push if it was only the starter? and does the starter just fail without warning or sound?
Again any pointers would be helpful.
You should be able to push start the car with a faulty starter without problem, however i would first try this:- with the ignition off and the car in second gear just rock it forward and backward gently just to ensure the starter isn't jammed, once you have done this a couple of times put the car back into neutral and then go through the procedure to start it. It could also be something as simple as the solenoid wire fallen off the starter! Good luck..
Still sounds like the battery to me. I found that jump starting only works on a very dead battery if I connect the other car up to the cerb and then run the engine on the other car for 5 minutes , that seems to shove some juice into the cerb battery. then with both cars connected I can get the cerb started.
McNasty said:
Thanks to everybody for your input, however i have tested the battery and was getting a 13-14v reading on a multi-meter
Mine also showed 14v but it didn't have enough power/cranking amps (or whatever the technical term is) to sustain the load required to get the started motor running.
Sounds like the fault I had last year. Yes, it could be the battery or the starter,(expensive), but before going down that route, check your starter relay on the fuse panel is clicking in, by listening/feeling it while the starter button is pressed. In my fault, the relay wasn't operating as it was only being supplied with about 4 volts. Bench checks showed that it needed nearer 5 volts before it would operate. I traced the fault to the immobiliser unit which is mounted between the rear seats under the "helmet holder". This unit is in series with the wire to the starter relay, when the car is immobilised, the circuit is cut off and no voltage can get through. It is electronic circuitry that does this, rather than a simple switch. The problem in my case was that the electronics were playing up and that sometimes there were not enough volts present to fire the relay. A weird side effect of this fault is that the voltage actually rises with time, so that if you hold the starter button in it will eventually reach the 5 volts needed to fire the relay (sometimes 5 minutes!), and the car starts, leading to the usual suspicion of Cerbera witchcraft!
Some owners have wired in a complete parallel circuit from a separate switch, but an easier way would be to simply bypass the immobiliser by cutting the 2 white/red wires at it and scotch locking them together. As the immobiliser also cuts off the fuel pump etc, not immobilising the starter has little security impact. As I said earlier, yours may well be the motor or the battery, but do this check first, mine has been 100% since. Good luck.
Some owners have wired in a complete parallel circuit from a separate switch, but an easier way would be to simply bypass the immobiliser by cutting the 2 white/red wires at it and scotch locking them together. As the immobiliser also cuts off the fuel pump etc, not immobilising the starter has little security impact. As I said earlier, yours may well be the motor or the battery, but do this check first, mine has been 100% since. Good luck.
McNasty said:
Thanks to everybody for your input, however i have tested the battery and was getting a 13-14v reading on a multi-meter connecting to the positive post and the oil cap. Having investigated the passenger foot well this is what i have found. The heater unit, wiper switching unit and a 6" x 5" x 2" unit with a label saying "Powercontrol Indusrties". this unit has a large cable and two smallish cables coming out of it one looks like a 2 core given the type of Jack plug and the other is a 3 core given that has a 3 terminal Jack plug (or connector). These didn't appear to be connected to any thing and i cannot find anything to connect them to. Are these for plugging in a computer? Higher up (near your knees and not your feet) i found another two pin Jack plug the same as below but again with nothing apparent to plug it into. All connectors are female. All the other connectors and cables appear to be fine.
I tried the long press of the button and opening the doors, switching on fans etc without any success. I have not tried bump starting it yet but have connected two battery packs at the same time to make sure of enough power and this did nothing over and above the fitted battery. i am not a mechanic but i am a Mechanical engineer so would like to try and fix this before hitting the wallet, so excuse the dumbass question. Would the car start with a push if it was only the starter? and does the starter just fail without warning or sound?
Again any pointers would be helpful.
I tried the long press of the button and opening the doors, switching on fans etc without any success. I have not tried bump starting it yet but have connected two battery packs at the same time to make sure of enough power and this did nothing over and above the fitted battery. i am not a mechanic but i am a Mechanical engineer so would like to try and fix this before hitting the wallet, so excuse the dumbass question. Would the car start with a push if it was only the starter? and does the starter just fail without warning or sound?
Again any pointers would be helpful.
How long did you keep it pressed in for?
My record was about 3.5 minutes...
Give the big fuse a spray with some WD40 - in fact flood it with a few long good squirts of WD40 - moisture in here causes non starting...
MB
marcus1970 said:
Give the big fuse a spray with some WD40 - in fact flood it with a few long good squirts of WD40 - moisture in here causes non starting...
I'm back keeping the button pressed on occassion.
I got a couple of months out of spraying the big fuse with "Servisol 10" contact cleaner and leaving it to dry.
I reckon I'll be moving the big fuse, as per the thread on here some months ago.
Thanks again guys, my other bloody car wont start know! i seem to have a drain on that so if left for a couple of days it is as flat as a cow pat. However, i have yet to try and bump start the Cerb, but i don't fancy doing this in front of all the lads in the factory as they predicted that it would only be a matter of time before she broke down, "not this one because it is a good one and i will look after it like they should with their tools"
I will try a new battery tonight as i have a spare (on charge) that i bought last year when the big fuse went. The pr**k in the shop did a test on my existing battery and said it was shot, it has been great for the last 12 months. Earlier I asked if the two cables with the connectors fitted were for a computer hook up? ie the ones comming out of the 6" x 5" box in the passanger foot well and also if anybody could tell me where the big fuse can be found. If somebody could help i would be grateful. i intend to spend a few hours on the car tomorrow and hopefully get to the bottom of this problem.
Thanks again everyone!!
I will try a new battery tonight as i have a spare (on charge) that i bought last year when the big fuse went. The pr**k in the shop did a test on my existing battery and said it was shot, it has been great for the last 12 months. Earlier I asked if the two cables with the connectors fitted were for a computer hook up? ie the ones comming out of the 6" x 5" box in the passanger foot well and also if anybody could tell me where the big fuse can be found. If somebody could help i would be grateful. i intend to spend a few hours on the car tomorrow and hopefully get to the bottom of this problem.
Thanks again everyone!!
marcus1970 said:
McNasty said:
Thanks to everybody for your input, however i have tested the battery and was getting a 13-14v reading on a multi-meter connecting to the positive post and the oil cap. Having investigated the passenger foot well this is what i have found. The heater unit, wiper switching unit and a 6" x 5" x 2" unit with a label saying "Powercontrol Indusrties". this unit has a large cable and two smallish cables coming out of it one looks like a 2 core given the type of Jack plug and the other is a 3 core given that has a 3 terminal Jack plug (or connector). These didn't appear to be connected to any thing and i cannot find anything to connect them to. Are these for plugging in a computer? Higher up (near your knees and not your feet) i found another two pin Jack plug the same as below but again with nothing apparent to plug it into. All connectors are female. All the other connectors and cables appear to be fine.
I tried the long press of the button and opening the doors, switching on fans etc without any success. I have not tried bump starting it yet but have connected two battery packs at the same time to make sure of enough power and this did nothing over and above the fitted battery. i am not a mechanic but i am a Mechanical engineer so would like to try and fix this before hitting the wallet, so excuse the dumbass question. Would the car start with a push if it was only the starter? and does the starter just fail without warning or sound?
Again any pointers would be helpful.
I tried the long press of the button and opening the doors, switching on fans etc without any success. I have not tried bump starting it yet but have connected two battery packs at the same time to make sure of enough power and this did nothing over and above the fitted battery. i am not a mechanic but i am a Mechanical engineer so would like to try and fix this before hitting the wallet, so excuse the dumbass question. Would the car start with a push if it was only the starter? and does the starter just fail without warning or sound?
Again any pointers would be helpful.
How long did you keep it pressed in for?
My record was about 3.5 minutes...
Give the big fuse a spray with some WD40 - in fact flood it with a few long good squirts of WD40 - moisture in here causes non starting...
MB
UPDATE.
Battery out new one in, same thing happens. Have now bump started it whilst cold and after second more energetic push from pals she fired into life. Great, what does this tell me?
Next, put old battery back in and timed myself when pushing button in and to my amazement there was a delicate noise from the engine bay and then with a little bit of a lazy start from something she fired up after 4 minutes on the button. I left her running for a while gassing myself in the workshop and turned the engie off. It then took say 3 min's this time to fire up.
So is the starter, the relay or the solinoid and if so where are they? and how do i get the helmet holder out to get to the immobilzer unit or is this not neccessary any more.
Thanks again for your help.
Battery out new one in, same thing happens. Have now bump started it whilst cold and after second more energetic push from pals she fired into life. Great, what does this tell me?
Next, put old battery back in and timed myself when pushing button in and to my amazement there was a delicate noise from the engine bay and then with a little bit of a lazy start from something she fired up after 4 minutes on the button. I left her running for a while gassing myself in the workshop and turned the engie off. It then took say 3 min's this time to fire up.
So is the starter, the relay or the solinoid and if so where are they? and how do i get the helmet holder out to get to the immobilzer unit or is this not neccessary any more.
Thanks again for your help.
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