Wanted someone intelligent with knowledge of turbo's
Discussion
Hi, my best friends in the process of tuning his Nissan 200sx S14A with the SR20det engine.
Can I reword that............My soon to be ex best friend decided he wanted it tuning so came to me!
He has found a company that will modify the software on his ecu to take advantage of larger turbo and injectors, he has got the injectors sorted, and knows what to do ecu wise and boost controller wise.
But with regards to turbo's, the standard fit is T28, apparently the one to fit is T4, this has a different mounting flange which doesn't concern me, for a start you can buy an adaptor, and if you couldn't I could make one.
Firstly are there any alternatives to the T4? Is it the best choice? He's aiming at circa 350BHP (obviously exhaust etc are to be modified also).
Assuming the T4 is the best choice what is the cheapest way of getting one, the job is being done on a sensible budget, in an ideal world I would like a turbo that is standard fit on another car, e.g. Volvo or Saab so I can buy one slightly cheaper.
Any help gratefully received.
Can I reword that............My soon to be ex best friend decided he wanted it tuning so came to me!
He has found a company that will modify the software on his ecu to take advantage of larger turbo and injectors, he has got the injectors sorted, and knows what to do ecu wise and boost controller wise.
But with regards to turbo's, the standard fit is T28, apparently the one to fit is T4, this has a different mounting flange which doesn't concern me, for a start you can buy an adaptor, and if you couldn't I could make one.
Firstly are there any alternatives to the T4? Is it the best choice? He's aiming at circa 350BHP (obviously exhaust etc are to be modified also).
Assuming the T4 is the best choice what is the cheapest way of getting one, the job is being done on a sensible budget, in an ideal world I would like a turbo that is standard fit on another car, e.g. Volvo or Saab so I can buy one slightly cheaper.
Any help gratefully received.
Get over to the www.sxoc.com all the info & experience you ever need is on there
Is 350hp his final goal? Or is he going further in the future?
What does he use the car for, track, drag, road only?
Something like this might work well:
www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=GRT-TBO-037&Category_Code=GRT
Or there are higher flowing T28s but obviously drivability will get worse; like I said what does he use the car for?
What does he use the car for, track, drag, road only?
Something like this might work well:
www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=GRT-TBO-037&Category_Code=GRT
Or there are higher flowing T28s but obviously drivability will get worse; like I said what does he use the car for?
First things first, what sort of budget are you on ? as thats going to dictate a lot.
IMO, the old T-series turbochargers are, well pretty much poo. Go for a modern BB unit, if you can afford it.
At 350bhp, you will need a new fuel pump, and larger injectors, obviously a FMIC etc too.
You can buy manifolds off ebay for very little money, that will mount either a T4 or T3 flanged turbo, which is handy. You can also have it so the turbo mounts above the manifold, which again, does make things a little easier.
I recently helped fit one along with a T3 flanged T61 to a 200 S14a, although its currently being run in.
The manifold was cheap, but looks fine. The flanges did need going over to ensure they were flat though.
You will have to sort your own downpipe though, but you seem to say that isnt a problem.
What do you intend to to as far as ecu is concerned ??
If you are on a tight budget, I think you can get manifolds for Mitsubishi based turbos too, as fitted to Subarus etc I think ( not sure if flange is generic though )
If thats the case, a TD05 from an early subaru, adapted to front entry, will see 350bhp.
If old Garrett style, a T34 might do it, but T38 would be better. A friend wil have a T34 for sale very soon of a 4x4 Cossie, very low miles on it.
IMO dont believe for one second the power quotes Cossie guys seem to suggest with T34,s and T38's etc....
If they do have the power they claim, they usually perform as if they have 50-70bhp less for some strange reason.
IMO, the old T-series turbochargers are, well pretty much poo. Go for a modern BB unit, if you can afford it.
At 350bhp, you will need a new fuel pump, and larger injectors, obviously a FMIC etc too.
You can buy manifolds off ebay for very little money, that will mount either a T4 or T3 flanged turbo, which is handy. You can also have it so the turbo mounts above the manifold, which again, does make things a little easier.
I recently helped fit one along with a T3 flanged T61 to a 200 S14a, although its currently being run in.
The manifold was cheap, but looks fine. The flanges did need going over to ensure they were flat though.
You will have to sort your own downpipe though, but you seem to say that isnt a problem.
What do you intend to to as far as ecu is concerned ??
If you are on a tight budget, I think you can get manifolds for Mitsubishi based turbos too, as fitted to Subarus etc I think ( not sure if flange is generic though )
If thats the case, a TD05 from an early subaru, adapted to front entry, will see 350bhp.
If old Garrett style, a T34 might do it, but T38 would be better. A friend wil have a T34 for sale very soon of a 4x4 Cossie, very low miles on it.
IMO dont believe for one second the power quotes Cossie guys seem to suggest with T34,s and T38's etc....
If they do have the power they claim, they usually perform as if they have 50-70bhp less for some strange reason.
if he has the cash then you cant go too wrong with the new garret GT series of turbo. if he is only looking for 350bhp then a GT28r or a hybrid baised on that one would be a good idea! the GT28r should spool pretty quick and you should beable to get a manifold (or the stock one??) to fit.
if he cant strech to the then there is the t34s that where used on the cossies. lots and lots of diffrent trims and specs so there will be one to meat his needs.
the Evo trubo might be worth a look to! can get upto about 400bhp out of them wehn pushed, so should be right there at 350bhp. also should be cheap and will be a few kicking about off damaged cars or from when people swap their Evo units to bigger ones. the choise of the bunch would the the Tomei Mak ones as they have the titanium wheels and shaft and spool quicker.
i think the T4s, if they are anything like the ones fitted to the cossies, will be a bit too big and laggy. if he wants to upgrade in the furture then a Gt30r based units will be a better bet.
also tell him to have a look at what the tuners recomend. Norris Designs dose tuning for them so a phone call might be in order??
hope this helps msome.
thanks Chris.
if he cant strech to the then there is the t34s that where used on the cossies. lots and lots of diffrent trims and specs so there will be one to meat his needs.
the Evo trubo might be worth a look to! can get upto about 400bhp out of them wehn pushed, so should be right there at 350bhp. also should be cheap and will be a few kicking about off damaged cars or from when people swap their Evo units to bigger ones. the choise of the bunch would the the Tomei Mak ones as they have the titanium wheels and shaft and spool quicker.
i think the T4s, if they are anything like the ones fitted to the cossies, will be a bit too big and laggy. if he wants to upgrade in the furture then a Gt30r based units will be a better bet.
also tell him to have a look at what the tuners recomend. Norris Designs dose tuning for them so a phone call might be in order??
hope this helps msome.
thanks Chris.
Price wise were talking hundreds not thousands, which should be achievable given he has a willing fool to do all the work for him.
I have an offer on a T38 fairly cheap, and while out of choice I would love to go BB or GT I really don't think Budget will allow.
Manifold wise I'm not too concerned, worst case scenario I will get one of the cheap tubular jobs off ebay and play around with a new flange for the turbo and flow it all and make sure all the welds are as they should be.
ECU wise he's going down the road of a "stage 2" chip from one of the 200 specialists, as mentioned above the injectors are already sorted, and he will apparently need a boost controller too, although I would have thought that should have been covered by the chip?
Power wanted is 350BHP he isn't really safe to have much more, and usage will be mainly road/track days.
And yes I've already told him he'll see much better performance improvements from tuition than any power mods but he is only 21 and as such doesn't listen!
I have an offer on a T38 fairly cheap, and while out of choice I would love to go BB or GT I really don't think Budget will allow.
Manifold wise I'm not too concerned, worst case scenario I will get one of the cheap tubular jobs off ebay and play around with a new flange for the turbo and flow it all and make sure all the welds are as they should be.
ECU wise he's going down the road of a "stage 2" chip from one of the 200 specialists, as mentioned above the injectors are already sorted, and he will apparently need a boost controller too, although I would have thought that should have been covered by the chip?
Power wanted is 350BHP he isn't really safe to have much more, and usage will be mainly road/track days.
And yes I've already told him he'll see much better performance improvements from tuition than any power mods but he is only 21 and as such doesn't listen!
Unless someone is supplying a chip, setup EXACTLY for yur spec, it wouldnt be a route I'd want to take, or should I say risk.
I fitted a AB stg3 chip to the mates Cossie...supposedly tried and tested things. The car performed fine, but IMO, mixtures at the top end were dangerously lean. And when the chip supplier claimed the chip was good for both a T3 and a T34....well, you begin to wonder about these experts.
That chip is now in a box, and the car has a proper ecu, a lot more power, and runs safely.
The Mitisubuishi Evo turbocharger is a backwards unit. Most were based around the TD05 ( earlier cars anyway ) but its a counterclockwise rotation unit. So fitment may bot be as easy on some cars.
If the T38 is cheap, then go for it.
Factory boost control is usually crap. But for you to expect anyone to have the ability to program boost control, for an unknown turbocharger and setup would be like asking someone to walk on water...
It can be done, but it would take a miracle lol
An EBC is a good device, and they do work very well, and allow easy in-car adjustment. Ive fitted and setup dozens of ecu's that can do boost control...I still always use an EBC. It makes life so much easier, and generally perform better.
For 350bhp plus, dont use anything smaller than 500cc injectors. Smaller will manage it, but you can be pushing it a little.
I fitted a AB stg3 chip to the mates Cossie...supposedly tried and tested things. The car performed fine, but IMO, mixtures at the top end were dangerously lean. And when the chip supplier claimed the chip was good for both a T3 and a T34....well, you begin to wonder about these experts.
That chip is now in a box, and the car has a proper ecu, a lot more power, and runs safely.
The Mitisubuishi Evo turbocharger is a backwards unit. Most were based around the TD05 ( earlier cars anyway ) but its a counterclockwise rotation unit. So fitment may bot be as easy on some cars.
If the T38 is cheap, then go for it.
Factory boost control is usually crap. But for you to expect anyone to have the ability to program boost control, for an unknown turbocharger and setup would be like asking someone to walk on water...
It can be done, but it would take a miracle lol
An EBC is a good device, and they do work very well, and allow easy in-car adjustment. Ive fitted and setup dozens of ecu's that can do boost control...I still always use an EBC. It makes life so much easier, and generally perform better.
For 350bhp plus, dont use anything smaller than 500cc injectors. Smaller will manage it, but you can be pushing it a little.
Edited by stevieturbo on Sunday 7th January 11:29
Er, you want to fit the smallest injectors that do the job, really, especially if the standard (if rechipped) ECU is being asked to handle them.
With turbo's, its much the same - I'd strongly advise your friend to pick up a GT28RS as they're not that expensive nowadays and if you have to adapt the flange and oil/coolant lines to use something with a T3-flange to work on a T25-flange exhaust manifold and fittings, the expenditure will eat into your savings of using a big ol' T38 anyway (of course, you can do a bodge job, but I wouldn't especially reagarding oil lines!).
Based on my -limited- experience with 200SX'es (my brother used to have an S13) you want power delivery as smooth and progressive as possible otherwise things can easily get (more than) a bit hairy...
With turbo's, its much the same - I'd strongly advise your friend to pick up a GT28RS as they're not that expensive nowadays and if you have to adapt the flange and oil/coolant lines to use something with a T3-flange to work on a T25-flange exhaust manifold and fittings, the expenditure will eat into your savings of using a big ol' T38 anyway (of course, you can do a bodge job, but I wouldn't especially reagarding oil lines!).
Based on my -limited- experience with 200SX'es (my brother used to have an S13) you want power delivery as smooth and progressive as possible otherwise things can easily get (more than) a bit hairy...
wildoliver said:
he's got 650cc I think from memory.
The "chip" company is Horsham developments.
Do you do ecu programming stevie? I'd sooner send the car to a pistonheader if the price is half way sensible.
The "chip" company is Horsham developments.
Do you do ecu programming stevie? I'd sooner send the car to a pistonheader if the price is half way sensible.
Im sorry, I dont. I can re-map an aftermarket ecu, but travelling over to Northern Ireland isnt something many want to do lol.
Ive heard of them, and Im sure they do good things. But if he hasnt setup a car to your exact spec, what he will be doing is purely guesswork.
900T-R said:
Er, you want to fit the smallest injectors that do the job
In some ways, yes.
But why constrain yourself for future mods ???
Id buy injectors large enough, that I should never need to change them again. its a waste of money doing otherwise IMO.
Ive ran 1000cc injectors on a 2.3 litre 4 cyl engine before, and they work fine. Im running some 750cc at 4.25 bar, so probably closer to 850cc.... Could probably do with bigger though, but Ive already paid for them, so I'll stick with them. Buying 8 isnt cheap, and finding good high impedance 1000cc injectors that i would really like isnt easy.
900T-R said:
With turbo's, its much the same - I'd strongly advise your friend to pick up a GT28RS as they're not that expensive nowadays and if you have to adapt the flange and oil/coolant lines to use something with a T3-flange to work on a T25-flange exhaust manifold and fittings
The ebay manifolds really arent expensive. And one benefit of mounting teh blower up top, is its a damn sight easier to work on !!!!
having the turbo in the underside location, is a PITA to get at anything. I had to fix an oil Leak on an S14a recently, and had to take the entire manifold/turbo off to do it. That said, it wasnt a huge job, but still a pain.
Going to a T3 manifold, will open up a lot of turbos to you on the used market.
wildoliver said:
so would have to be t4? is the t4 fitted to any cars as standard?
Only the Sierra Cosworth RS500 and I think Bentley turbo's, and the former one was a total pig with the T4 - the reason that it was used in the first place was of course the purpose of homologation for touring car racing. I'd say a T34 or T35 (1st gen Escort Cossie) should do it, but even then it'll be a bit of a laggy beast.
Not to be overly pessimistic but I think you're asked a bit too much to get a genuinely driveable 350 bhp from a 2 litre engine on the kind of budget you're asked to work with.
The cheap tubular manifolds off ebay, are VERY prone to cracking I have heard. There is usually a reason why things are cheap - especially things as important as the manifold on a turbo car. For comparison I am buying a kit off DP engineering for my 205 and their manifold is about £600 but they are amazing quality.
I would go for a gt28r if you can afford it, the T series are very old nowadays and would probably need a refurb anyway, that in itself can be £500 so by the time you add that on you could probably afford a GT series turbo.
For 350bhp is it just the turbo and boost you are thinking of upgrading? as you are kind of chasing your tail if you are trying to get more and more power just with more boost and bigger turbo's. I take it he has a decent FMIC that is going to be able to cool the charge suffciently so you dont get detonation.
350bhp and low budget on a sr20det dont necessarily mix well, but if you know that I suppose thats fair enough.
I would go for a gt28r if you can afford it, the T series are very old nowadays and would probably need a refurb anyway, that in itself can be £500 so by the time you add that on you could probably afford a GT series turbo.
For 350bhp is it just the turbo and boost you are thinking of upgrading? as you are kind of chasing your tail if you are trying to get more and more power just with more boost and bigger turbo's. I take it he has a decent FMIC that is going to be able to cool the charge suffciently so you dont get detonation.
350bhp and low budget on a sr20det dont necessarily mix well, but if you know that I suppose thats fair enough.
Edited by bales on Sunday 7th January 16:00
The exhaust doesnt bother me at all, I'd end up dismantling the cheap £89 ebay job anyway as I'd be making it equal length headers as well as modifying the flange etc.
I'll talk to him about the turbo, if he would listen he'd sell the damned thing and buy a 944 and learn to drive properly, but were all different I suppose.
I'll talk to him about the turbo, if he would listen he'd sell the damned thing and buy a 944 and learn to drive properly, but were all different I suppose.
T3 and T4 are such loose terms, they almost mean nothing on their own !!!!!! each could cover about 10 different turbos ! and as Ive said, both are very old technology when it comes to turbos.
A used T34 would just about see you at a genuine 350. A T38 will defo get you there, and as you say you have access to one, it would make sense to use it.
A regular Cossie T3, which is different to a 4x4 T3, which is different to a RS Turbo T3, which is different to a Saab T3.....
get the picture ? The generic name refers only to the turbine shaft itself, and the mounting flange.
The ebay manifolds are cheap....and well, if they crack, just weld them up.
Ive seen expensive manifolds crack too. Stainless does eventually, end of story.
A used T34 would just about see you at a genuine 350. A T38 will defo get you there, and as you say you have access to one, it would make sense to use it.
A regular Cossie T3, which is different to a 4x4 T3, which is different to a RS Turbo T3, which is different to a Saab T3.....
get the picture ? The generic name refers only to the turbine shaft itself, and the mounting flange.
The ebay manifolds are cheap....and well, if they crack, just weld them up.
Ive seen expensive manifolds crack too. Stainless does eventually, end of story.
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