What to do with Iraqi refugees
Discussion
I was thinking when the huge wave of refugees from Iraq and the Middle East inevitably arrive on our shores, maybe we should ship them all over to Northern Ireland then hopefully once the country is full of Muslims the Protestants and Catholics will actually realise just how much they’ve got in common and might start to get along a little better at least.
I Hope this hasn’t offended anyone as I understand that the problem in Northern Ireland is a serious one, but I was just thinking how hypocritical it is of America to be waging a so called war on terrorism when for years money raised in America (knowingly by the American government) has been used to buy weapons to kill and maim both British troops and civilians on the streets of Northern Ireland.
[prepares to be flamed]
I Hope this hasn’t offended anyone as I understand that the problem in Northern Ireland is a serious one, but I was just thinking how hypocritical it is of America to be waging a so called war on terrorism when for years money raised in America (knowingly by the American government) has been used to buy weapons to kill and maim both British troops and civilians on the streets of Northern Ireland.
[prepares to be flamed]
America was funding the (IRA)war in Northern Ireland?! I did not know that, as I naively thought it was between, um, Britain and Northern Ireland, except for some diplomatic talks that occured a while back...Sorry for the irritating degree of ignorance, as I hadn't kept up on it for that reason--I didn't know we were involved--especially since the US has considered Britain her ally. But, I agree with your point about muslims! Being non-religious, I basically considered Catholics and Protestants to be both Christian religions, so I thought they were just fighting under the ruse of religious differences when it really had to do with Irish independence from England. I'm about to get flamed for being ignorant I guess!!
seafarer said: Do you mean that America has raised money for the IRA in that there are civilian groups in America who send money to the IRA, or the US government specifically supported the IRA? I would really be shocked if our government supported the IRA.
Have you ever heard of Noraid and where do you think they were sending the money? Was it to homeless children or something else?
No - The Amercan government has never directly funded the IRA - but they have allowed Noraid to operate - allegedly raising money for the families of IRA men killed and imprisoned. But America has declared war on countries who support and promote terrorism. Does that mean the UK is allowed to bomb Washington.
sybaseian said
Have you ever heard of Noraid and where do you think they were sending the money? Was it to homeless children or something else?
No, sorry, I'm a chowderhead. NORAD is a big defensive stronghold inside a mountain in Colorado. I don't remember what the acronym stands for. Noraid is aid to Northern Ireland? From the US government or just sponsored by US civilians? There are other groups in the US, such as groups of Jews sending money to Israel for their cause, but I don't think that reflects that the US government supports terrorism. Let me explain why. There have been, since 9/11, some "charity" groups who have recently been shut down by the FBI as being Muslim extremist terrorist funding cells for activity in Palestine and elsewhere. However, and there was a big story about a professor at a local univerity who was jailed for this, it took them years to verify the real intentions and get enough definative proof that this was where the money was going (a lot of laundering), and to catch everyone involved. It was hard for them to make absolutely certain and prove legally they weren't being "racist" or limiting someone's freedom of speech. We've got a lot of "lentil munchers" over here who think people should be able to say whatever they want and support any political belief they want, so the feds cant go after someone just for saying they hate America and all that. They have to go to great lengths to show that money is definitely not going to by schoolbooks, and I think that's quite a bit harder. So after some of the supporters of these terrorist charities were arrested, there were demonstrations at USF about this guys freedom of speech and all that crap. My question is, is Noraid a civilian group or run by the US government?
seafarer said:
sybaseian said
Have you ever heard of Noraid and where do you think they were sending the money? Was it to homeless children or something else?
No, sorry, I'm a chowderhead. NORAD is a big defensive stronghold inside a mountain in Colorado. I don't remember what the acronym stands for. Noraid is aid to Northern Ireland? From the US government or just sponsored by US civilians? There are other groups in the US, such as groups of Jews sending money to Israel for their cause, but I don't think that reflects that the US government supports terrorism. Let me explain why. There have been, since 9/11, some "charity" groups who have recently been shut down by the FBI as being Muslim extremist terrorist funding cells for activity in Palestine and elsewhere. However, and there was a big story about a professor at a local univerity who was jailed for this, it took them years to verify the real intentions and get enough definative proof that this was where the money was going (a lot of laundering), and to catch everyone involved. It was hard for them to make absolutely certain and prove legally they weren't being "racist" or limiting someone's freedom of speech. We've got a lot of "lentil munchers" over here who think people should be able to say whatever they want and support any political belief they want, so the feds cant go after someone just for saying they hate America and all that. They have to go to great lengths to show that money is definitely not going to by schoolbooks, and I think that's quite a bit harder. So after some of the supporters of these terrorist charities were arrested, there were demonstrations at USF about this guys freedom of speech and all that crap. My question is, is Noraid a civilian group or run by the US government?
Noraid is not sponsored by the US Government, but the US Government has been repeatedly asked by the UK Government to stop the funds from reaching Northern Ireland as it is being used to fund terrorist activities.
As for what NORAD stands for see below, it's from their website:- www.norad.mil/
Welcome to NORAD
The North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) is a binational United States and Canadian organization charged with the missions of aerospace warning and aerospace control for North America. Aerospace warning includes the monitoring of man-made objects in space, and the detection, validation, and warning of attack against North America whether by aircraft, missiles, or space vehicles, utilizing mutual support arrangements with other commands. Aerospace control includes providing surveillance and control of Canadian and United States airspace
>> Edited by sybaseian on Friday 4th April 02:21
markqelise said: No - The Amercan government has never directly funded the IRA - but they have allowed Noraid to operate - allegedly raising money for the families of IRA men killed and imprisoned. But America has declared war on countries who support and promote terrorism. Does that mean the UK is allowed to bomb Washington.
Nevermind, you answered my question. I think the government gets to splitting hairs between having to allow someone to support a political stance and determining if that also means that they are involved in unlawful activity, such as supporting terrorists. So they would have to prove that Noraid supports terrorists, as it "allegedly" does, to prosecute. If they know better, I don't know why they've allowed it. And, no, I don't think the UK should bomb DC because Noraid still exists. "Allegedly" implies that it's suspected, but yet unproven. The stuff at USF (a university here) was "suspected" for about 5-6 years before they could really nail the whole group and arrest them all. They had to get bank records and trace a lot of stuff, it was pretty complex.
I have heard mutterings that music groups like U2 'supported' the IRA financially.
Considering thast it would be simple enough for the IRA to say to Bono "give us the cash or we kneecap yer granny", what choice would they have?
However, I understand that various campaigners worked to raise funds in the States, without even trying to hide the fact that the money was going to the IRA. Maybe they said Sinn Fein, political party, instead? My guess is that plenty of Yanks struggle to understand their own political system, let alone those of other countries.... :flameme,flameme:
Ian
Considering thast it would be simple enough for the IRA to say to Bono "give us the cash or we kneecap yer granny", what choice would they have?
However, I understand that various campaigners worked to raise funds in the States, without even trying to hide the fact that the money was going to the IRA. Maybe they said Sinn Fein, political party, instead? My guess is that plenty of Yanks struggle to understand their own political system, let alone those of other countries.... :flameme,flameme:
Ian
I have heard mutterings that music groups like U2 'supported' the IRA financially.
Considering thast it would be simple enough for the IRA to say to Bono "give us the cash or we kneecap yer granny", what choice would they have?
However, I understand that various campaigners worked to raise funds in the States, without even trying to hide the fact that the money was going to the IRA. Maybe they said Sinn Fein, political party, instead? My guess is that plenty of Yanks struggle to understand their own political system, let alone those of other countries.... :flameme,flameme:
Ian
Considering thast it would be simple enough for the IRA to say to Bono "give us the cash or we kneecap yer granny", what choice would they have?
However, I understand that various campaigners worked to raise funds in the States, without even trying to hide the fact that the money was going to the IRA. Maybe they said Sinn Fein, political party, instead? My guess is that plenty of Yanks struggle to understand their own political system, let alone those of other countries.... :flameme,flameme:
Ian
Yes I was referring to the fact that the American government knowingly allowed members of Republican political/terrorist (read what you will) groups into the US so that they could raise funds to support their cause.
The British government constantly kept the US informed of this fact, and the fact that the money was used to buy arms and explosives. However on the majority of occasions very little if nothing was done to prevent it, mainly because of pressure from within the US from groups of Irish Americans who strongly support the republican cause. The fact that although the government openly allowed these groups into the US it provided intelligence to the British anti terrorist squad about who was supporting these causes and what arms were being bought within the US to be used in Norther Ireland. This kind of suggests they had a pretty good idea of what was going on even though they weren't directly supporting these groups.
In light of this do you think it would be plausible for American troops to move into Northern Ireland and go into the homes of known terrorists and hold them as illegal combatants, while also seizing the assets of those fellow Americans who have helped fund them? After all the fact that over 700 British service people and countless civilians have been killed in the conflict surely can’t be overlooked if America really is fighting a war against terrorism!
Some how I can’t see it happening
The British government constantly kept the US informed of this fact, and the fact that the money was used to buy arms and explosives. However on the majority of occasions very little if nothing was done to prevent it, mainly because of pressure from within the US from groups of Irish Americans who strongly support the republican cause. The fact that although the government openly allowed these groups into the US it provided intelligence to the British anti terrorist squad about who was supporting these causes and what arms were being bought within the US to be used in Norther Ireland. This kind of suggests they had a pretty good idea of what was going on even though they weren't directly supporting these groups.
In light of this do you think it would be plausible for American troops to move into Northern Ireland and go into the homes of known terrorists and hold them as illegal combatants, while also seizing the assets of those fellow Americans who have helped fund them? After all the fact that over 700 British service people and countless civilians have been killed in the conflict surely can’t be overlooked if America really is fighting a war against terrorism!
Some how I can’t see it happening
So, are you saying I don't understand my political system? In another thread, I just explained how the bicameral government (house of representatives and senate) works. For chrissakes, I'm not a total cretin.
If Britain has definitive proof of criminal activity by Noraid, tracing it back to individuals in the U.S., isn't there some kind of legal means for them to resolve this? It seems like, if a U.S. citizen committed a crime in Britain, there's a procedure for that to be handled and procecuted, right? I don't know what it is because I don't do a lot of international illegal activity. Sorry. A U.S. citizen supporting crime in another country is just like they committed the crime there, isn't it? So if they have the proof, why don't they get on with it?
If Britain has definitive proof of criminal activity by Noraid, tracing it back to individuals in the U.S., isn't there some kind of legal means for them to resolve this? It seems like, if a U.S. citizen committed a crime in Britain, there's a procedure for that to be handled and procecuted, right? I don't know what it is because I don't do a lot of international illegal activity. Sorry. A U.S. citizen supporting crime in another country is just like they committed the crime there, isn't it? So if they have the proof, why don't they get on with it?
I don't think wedg1e was aiming his attack at you personally, but I think it is fair to say a lot of Americans who gave money to fund these causes didn't really understand the situation in Ireland. Which is very understandable because the a large number of people in the UK don't really have a good grasp on the scale of the problem.
>> Edited by Supercharged on Friday 4th April 02:47
>> Edited by Supercharged on Friday 4th April 02:47
Supercharged said: Yes I was referring to the fact that the American government knowingly allowed members of Republican political/terrorist (read what you will) groups into the US so that they could raise funds to support their cause.
The British government constantly kept the US informed of this fact, and the fact that the money was used to buy arms and explosives. However on the majority of occasions very little if nothing was done to prevent it, mainly because of pressure from within the US from groups of Irish Americans who strongly support the republican cause. The fact that although the government openly allowed these groups into the US it provided intelligence to the British anti terrorist squad about who was supporting these causes and what arms were being bought within the US to be used in Norther Ireland. This kind of suggests they had a pretty good idea of what was going on even though they weren't directly supporting these groups.
In light of this do you think it would be plausible for American troops to move into Northern Ireland and go into the homes of known terrorists and hold them as illegal combatants, while also seizing the assets of those fellow Americans who have helped fund them? After all the fact that over 700 British service people and countless civilians have been killed in the conflict surely can’t be overlooked if America really is fighting a war against terrorism!
Some how I can’t see it happening
Supercharged: A fine idea. They did that to some Muslim terrorist charities over here recently, so I don't see why not. Now that you mention it, I do remember politicians in the NE U.S. trying to appeal to the Irish Americans over here, which is crap, because frankly they're not that Irish. The Kennedys were like that and they're Democrats, not Republicans. (when you say Republican, do you mean as in IRA, or Republican party in the U.S.?) Irish American is like saying I'm British because my last name is Twining. I don't see why the UK doesn't just say, "you owe us one" after Iraq, and hold them to it for the IRA thing. Why the hell not?
On the subject of Yanks not understanding their own political system (um, refering to our voting "difficulties" I presume), a friend of ours made up some T-shirts that say "I may be a dumb Florida voter, but at least Hillary Clinton is not my senator".
She's never even lived in the state where she got herself elected, until she was campaigning of course. So, it's very representative.I don't think it's a personal attack. Sinn Fein has been described as a "political party" over here, sort of they way the mafia is described as a family business. You're right, a lot of Americans don't really understand the breadth and complexity of the Northern Ireland situation. Most of them haven't lived in Ireland for generations, so it's assinine for them to support some political cause over there, in my opinion. Just go back, if you think that's your country! Sorry if any of this is redundant, but some replies get posted before my responses, so I don't see them.
Hi Seafarer,
The "republicans" that were mentioned was a reference to the IRA (Irish Republican Army) and similar groups who wish to re-unit Ireland. Not the US political party. This is part of where everything gets all confusing in an International context when people are using local terms of reference. It wouldn't surprise me if some US citizens had given to Noraid thinking it was a US political party
.
In the Irish situation Loyalists are "fighting" to stay British and Republicans are "fighting" to re-unit Ireland as one country.
Noraid was setup to fund the Irish republican terrorists AND did so openly in the US. A friend of mine is nolonger allowed into the US because he visited whilst in the British Army and was asked to donate to Noraid at a stall setup in the street. Needless to say the stall was nolonger standing when he was arrested.
It is very hypocritical of the US government to now be shutting down charity organisations that "might possibly" have funded something vaguely named the same thing as a Muslim terrorist organisation when they let Noraid work for decades with impunity.
I am not saying they are wrong, if they have proof that they have funded terrorism. Just that's it's hypocritical as they have been allowing known terrorist funding to go on for years.
The "republicans" that were mentioned was a reference to the IRA (Irish Republican Army) and similar groups who wish to re-unit Ireland. Not the US political party. This is part of where everything gets all confusing in an International context when people are using local terms of reference. It wouldn't surprise me if some US citizens had given to Noraid thinking it was a US political party
. In the Irish situation Loyalists are "fighting" to stay British and Republicans are "fighting" to re-unit Ireland as one country.
Noraid was setup to fund the Irish republican terrorists AND did so openly in the US. A friend of mine is nolonger allowed into the US because he visited whilst in the British Army and was asked to donate to Noraid at a stall setup in the street. Needless to say the stall was nolonger standing when he was arrested.
It is very hypocritical of the US government to now be shutting down charity organisations that "might possibly" have funded something vaguely named the same thing as a Muslim terrorist organisation when they let Noraid work for decades with impunity.
I am not saying they are wrong, if they have proof that they have funded terrorism. Just that's it's hypocritical as they have been allowing known terrorist funding to go on for years.
None of us can guarantee to get it right first time so tempting as it is there is little to be gained by dwelling on past actions. I'm a Clinton sympathiser but some of his Ireland speeches are more than a little suspect.
If we Brits find the Ireland situation confusing can we realistically expect other nationalities to grasp what has been going on?
If we Brits find the Ireland situation confusing can we realistically expect other nationalities to grasp what has been going on?
before we all slag off the US Govt for not cracking down on Noraid, a couple of things are worth remembering ... firstly a crack down would just have driven it underground. If the UK govt couldn't stop the IRA operating rackets in Northern Ireland to raise cash, there is no chance the US govt could have stopped donations being made in the USA.
The UK is famed for tolerateing organisations that are pretty clearly fund raising fronts for overseas terrorist organisations. We have had plenty of requests from our European partners to close down organisations and expel individuals .. and we've failed to do it.
Also we have got to face up to the outrageous shit that was being pulled by the RUC Special Branch and army intelligence and their de facto collaberation with Loyalist terrorist organisations.
Don't throw stones in a glass house.
The UK is famed for tolerateing organisations that are pretty clearly fund raising fronts for overseas terrorist organisations. We have had plenty of requests from our European partners to close down organisations and expel individuals .. and we've failed to do it.
Also we have got to face up to the outrageous shit that was being pulled by the RUC Special Branch and army intelligence and their de facto collaberation with Loyalist terrorist organisations.
Don't throw stones in a glass house.
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