sensible outcome
Discussion
I was involved in an RTC last December - where basically a lorry failed to stop which pushed a car across my path writing off my vehicle and mangling the other.
Anyway - I've just received a note from Cambs BiB Collision Enquiry Unit stating that they have sufficient evidence to prosecute the lorry driver. However they are going to make an offer to the driver of attendance at a Driver Improvement Course (1.5 days with costs of £185)
If the driver refuses then he will be prosecuted. If the driver fails to make satisfactory completion of the course he will be prosecuted. If he is involved in a similar incident in 3 years he will be prosecuted for this offence.
The letter goes on to say
"While there is sufficient evidence in this case to justify a prosecution, there is no provision in law for a Magistrate to order such retraining and the imposition of a fine and penalty points will not do anything to correct poor driving habits."
I think this is an excellent stance to take to improve road safety
I do have the chance to appeal this if I'd prefer the police to consider further action - however all I want to know is where can I get 1.5 days of expert tuition for only £185!
All the best FG
Anyway - I've just received a note from Cambs BiB Collision Enquiry Unit stating that they have sufficient evidence to prosecute the lorry driver. However they are going to make an offer to the driver of attendance at a Driver Improvement Course (1.5 days with costs of £185)
If the driver refuses then he will be prosecuted. If the driver fails to make satisfactory completion of the course he will be prosecuted. If he is involved in a similar incident in 3 years he will be prosecuted for this offence.
The letter goes on to say
"While there is sufficient evidence in this case to justify a prosecution, there is no provision in law for a Magistrate to order such retraining and the imposition of a fine and penalty points will not do anything to correct poor driving habits."
I think this is an excellent stance to take to improve road safety
I do have the chance to appeal this if I'd prefer the police to consider further action - however all I want to know is where can I get 1.5 days of expert tuition for only £185!
All the best FG
chrispy porker said:
How can he be prosecuted in, say, 2 and a half years time for a summary offence which he has already committed?
Anyone know the answer?
Anyone know the answer?
dunno - the exact wording of the letter is:
"At the conclusion of the course, we [Cambs BiB] will issue a warning letter to the driver advising that should he/she be involved in a similar incident within 3 years of the course, a prosecution will follow."
chrispy porker said:
I think that means he will be prosecuted for that offence rather than the one you were involved with. Still as long as he is more careful, the object of the exercise has been achieved.
It's not the way I read it if taken in context with the rest of the letter:
If he refuses to attend - prosecution
If he fails to satisfactorily complete the course - prosecution
If involved with similar (wording as above, but note it just says involved in not in not guilty of) - prosecution will follow.
Anyhow - I'm no legal eagle.
But you are right - if he improves as a driver then everyone wins
Edited by FunkyGibbon on Friday 12th January 19:22
For my sins I've been on one of these courses 
I wrote a review of the course for PH but never got around to finishing it off. Now might be a good time to post it actually...
I wrote a review of the course for PH but never got around to finishing it off. Now might be a good time to post it actually...
My review said:
National Driver Improvement Scheme.
I have just completed a day and a half on the National Driver Improvement Scheme.
So why was I there?
I was there as a result of a crash some months back. I had heard nothing for some months until one day an official looking letter arrived on the mat. It was an ‘offer’ of a place on a Driver Improvement Scheme. The language was quite stern and hinted at a lifetime of incarceration should I ‘choose’ not to attend. I was offered the opportunity to go to court to clear my good name but after a day or two of deliberation I decided to give it a go.
Why did I accept the offer in the end?
I haven’t had any advanced driver training for over twenty years since I completed an advanced motorcycling course.
I made a mistake which resulted in a crash, had I picked up any bad habits? I felt I should know if I had.
I could do without the stress of a court appearance. In my own mind I know that careful and competent drivers shouldn’t be crashing.
So, having made my decision I arrived at 9:00AM on the first morning having studied my highway code well in advance. I was a little nervous, but the instructors were friendly and we soon started off with coffee and an introduction.
We were told about the course. The general idea is that it’s about improvement, not punishment. We were told that we are the lucky ones as we are alive and our misdemeanours were not so bad we need to go to court. It makes sense if you think about it.
For our first exercise we are paired up and after a brief chat we introduce the other driver with what they dislike about other drivers. There a wide range of points ranging from slow Micras through to boy racers. All the usual gripes came out such as discourtesy, tailgaters etc. The points raised were then discussed by the entire group.
We then had a Powerpoint presentation about how stress affects peoples driving. We discussed ways to reduce the stress including how to approach an employer or the HSE should punishing schedules be an unwritten company policy. There were discussion points about what makes a good driver, what makes a bad driver and how to drive defensively.
We then had a hazard perception video where we needed to predict what was likely to happen next, what we could glean from information such as the time of year and time of day etc. This was a group exercise and there was a jokey and fun element to it although serious discussion was still expected.
We broke for coffee and biscuits mid-morning which were provided in the course fee
For the second half of the morning we had some toy cars and road layouts to play with. We were asked to position the cars to a set of different scenarios and then apportion degrees of responsibility and avoidance for each of the model cars. There were four different scenarios and a debate at the end to see what conclusions we reached. The debate could get quite lively from time to time.
Lunch was provided at 1:00PM and we had a brief break before the main event, the observed drives!
We paired up again, generally mixing young drivers with older ones to balance out the benefit of the experience of the older driver against the freshness of knowledge of the younger driver.
Being the gentleman that I am, I let the other driver go first. We had been advised to drive naturally as the instructor would soon spot if we didn’t. The other drivers first drive didn’t seem too bad and certainly wasn’t dangerous but the instructor picked him up on coasting too much and general observation etc.
Then it was my turn. I have to admit I was a little nervous. I haven’t been assessed for over twenty years and like all of us I’m sure I consider myself to be a good driver. Was my world about to come crashing down?
My first drive was intentionally relaxed, one hand on the wheel and remaining fairly static in terms of road positioning. It wasn’t sloppy but technically it could have been much better. I wanted to leave myself some room for improvement after all. As expected I was picked up on my grip, occasionally allowing my arms to cross and not block changing. Ok, I learnt to drive twenty five years ago and we were taught to always be in the correct gear at all times. Still, I resolved to give block changing a go on the next drive.
That concluded the first day and we finished around 5:00 PM.
The second day began at 9:00 AM again and I felt much more relaxed. We started with a Highway Code test over coffee. The test was quite brief and consisted of multiple choice questions being fired at people around the room. Sooner or later it had to happen and we were treated to a brief lecture about speed cameras being good. I bit my lip and decided that now wasn’t the time for a political debate if I wanted to pass the course.
We went out on the road about 9:30AM. This time we went out of town for our observed drives. The other driver took the first drive and he felt much smoother and you could tell his anticipation had improved. Then it was my turn again. I decided to give a running commentary so the observer was aware of my thought processes and reasons for doing what I was doing. I didn’t want him to miss any of my observations or mirror checks as I wanted this to be a good drive.
Everything just flowed. The more I explained the better the drive became. I seemed to have so much time and pointed out every single hazard and was prepared at all times. I felt very relaxed and it was one of the easiest drives I have ever done. As we were in the countryside I made full use of both sides of the road where appropriate and used hedgerows and telegraph poles to predict where the road would run. I was surprised at how easy it was to remain inside the speed limits as each time we approached a sign I commentated on the limit.
The drive seemed to be over too quickly as I was really enjoying myself. We stopped briefly for coffee before completing a couple more drives back to the centre for final debriefing.
This was the moment of truth, a stranger had to mark my driving. People have been shot for lesser things. Was I really a good driver or did I just think I was? I was nervous again.
Fortunately my feeling of really hooking up with the drive and getting everything right was true. I was marked 86 out of a possible 90 with a recommendation to take the advanced test. My observer commented that it was the best drive he had been on in six years of running the course. I actually felt mighty proud at that point, mainly because the crash had put a dint in my previous record of driving over half a million miles without incident.
So would I recommend attending a Driver Improver Scheme? On balance I would say yes. It is far too brief to teach you the skills to be an advanced driver and you will only get anything out of it if you approach it with the right mind set but if it focuses you enough to try and practice your skills beforehand then your driving will improve.
Personally I enjoyed the course and am giving serious consideration of taking the IAM test as a result of what I have learned. I came away from the course feeling proud that my driving skills are still intact despite a crash and I don’t have any sort of chip on my shoulder about how ‘the system’ operates. I don’t believe I would feel the same had I beef forced to go through a court appearance.
However, if you are simply looking for training in order to become an advanced driver I believe there are courses that are better suited to achieving those goals.
I have just completed a day and a half on the National Driver Improvement Scheme.
So why was I there?
I was there as a result of a crash some months back. I had heard nothing for some months until one day an official looking letter arrived on the mat. It was an ‘offer’ of a place on a Driver Improvement Scheme. The language was quite stern and hinted at a lifetime of incarceration should I ‘choose’ not to attend. I was offered the opportunity to go to court to clear my good name but after a day or two of deliberation I decided to give it a go.
Why did I accept the offer in the end?
I haven’t had any advanced driver training for over twenty years since I completed an advanced motorcycling course.
I made a mistake which resulted in a crash, had I picked up any bad habits? I felt I should know if I had.
I could do without the stress of a court appearance. In my own mind I know that careful and competent drivers shouldn’t be crashing.
So, having made my decision I arrived at 9:00AM on the first morning having studied my highway code well in advance. I was a little nervous, but the instructors were friendly and we soon started off with coffee and an introduction.
We were told about the course. The general idea is that it’s about improvement, not punishment. We were told that we are the lucky ones as we are alive and our misdemeanours were not so bad we need to go to court. It makes sense if you think about it.
For our first exercise we are paired up and after a brief chat we introduce the other driver with what they dislike about other drivers. There a wide range of points ranging from slow Micras through to boy racers. All the usual gripes came out such as discourtesy, tailgaters etc. The points raised were then discussed by the entire group.
We then had a Powerpoint presentation about how stress affects peoples driving. We discussed ways to reduce the stress including how to approach an employer or the HSE should punishing schedules be an unwritten company policy. There were discussion points about what makes a good driver, what makes a bad driver and how to drive defensively.
We then had a hazard perception video where we needed to predict what was likely to happen next, what we could glean from information such as the time of year and time of day etc. This was a group exercise and there was a jokey and fun element to it although serious discussion was still expected.
We broke for coffee and biscuits mid-morning which were provided in the course fee
For the second half of the morning we had some toy cars and road layouts to play with. We were asked to position the cars to a set of different scenarios and then apportion degrees of responsibility and avoidance for each of the model cars. There were four different scenarios and a debate at the end to see what conclusions we reached. The debate could get quite lively from time to time.
Lunch was provided at 1:00PM and we had a brief break before the main event, the observed drives!
We paired up again, generally mixing young drivers with older ones to balance out the benefit of the experience of the older driver against the freshness of knowledge of the younger driver.
Being the gentleman that I am, I let the other driver go first. We had been advised to drive naturally as the instructor would soon spot if we didn’t. The other drivers first drive didn’t seem too bad and certainly wasn’t dangerous but the instructor picked him up on coasting too much and general observation etc.
Then it was my turn. I have to admit I was a little nervous. I haven’t been assessed for over twenty years and like all of us I’m sure I consider myself to be a good driver. Was my world about to come crashing down?
My first drive was intentionally relaxed, one hand on the wheel and remaining fairly static in terms of road positioning. It wasn’t sloppy but technically it could have been much better. I wanted to leave myself some room for improvement after all. As expected I was picked up on my grip, occasionally allowing my arms to cross and not block changing. Ok, I learnt to drive twenty five years ago and we were taught to always be in the correct gear at all times. Still, I resolved to give block changing a go on the next drive.
That concluded the first day and we finished around 5:00 PM.
The second day began at 9:00 AM again and I felt much more relaxed. We started with a Highway Code test over coffee. The test was quite brief and consisted of multiple choice questions being fired at people around the room. Sooner or later it had to happen and we were treated to a brief lecture about speed cameras being good. I bit my lip and decided that now wasn’t the time for a political debate if I wanted to pass the course.
We went out on the road about 9:30AM. This time we went out of town for our observed drives. The other driver took the first drive and he felt much smoother and you could tell his anticipation had improved. Then it was my turn again. I decided to give a running commentary so the observer was aware of my thought processes and reasons for doing what I was doing. I didn’t want him to miss any of my observations or mirror checks as I wanted this to be a good drive.
Everything just flowed. The more I explained the better the drive became. I seemed to have so much time and pointed out every single hazard and was prepared at all times. I felt very relaxed and it was one of the easiest drives I have ever done. As we were in the countryside I made full use of both sides of the road where appropriate and used hedgerows and telegraph poles to predict where the road would run. I was surprised at how easy it was to remain inside the speed limits as each time we approached a sign I commentated on the limit.
The drive seemed to be over too quickly as I was really enjoying myself. We stopped briefly for coffee before completing a couple more drives back to the centre for final debriefing.
This was the moment of truth, a stranger had to mark my driving. People have been shot for lesser things. Was I really a good driver or did I just think I was? I was nervous again.
Fortunately my feeling of really hooking up with the drive and getting everything right was true. I was marked 86 out of a possible 90 with a recommendation to take the advanced test. My observer commented that it was the best drive he had been on in six years of running the course. I actually felt mighty proud at that point, mainly because the crash had put a dint in my previous record of driving over half a million miles without incident.
So would I recommend attending a Driver Improver Scheme? On balance I would say yes. It is far too brief to teach you the skills to be an advanced driver and you will only get anything out of it if you approach it with the right mind set but if it focuses you enough to try and practice your skills beforehand then your driving will improve.
Personally I enjoyed the course and am giving serious consideration of taking the IAM test as a result of what I have learned. I came away from the course feeling proud that my driving skills are still intact despite a crash and I don’t have any sort of chip on my shoulder about how ‘the system’ operates. I don’t believe I would feel the same had I beef forced to go through a court appearance.
However, if you are simply looking for training in order to become an advanced driver I believe there are courses that are better suited to achieving those goals.
chrispy porker said:
How can he be prosecuted in, say, 2 and a half years time for a summary offence which he has already committed?
Anyone know the answer?
Anyone know the answer?
Well if the information was laid for the summons within six months, it can be served 3 years later, it doesn't have to be served straight away.
In normal circumstances you may be able to argue abuse of process with such a delay, but in these circumstances I'd say it's quite reasonable.
FunkyGibbon said:
"While there is sufficient evidence in this case to justify a prosecution, there is no provision in law for a Magistrate to order such retraining and the imposition of a fine and penalty points will not do anything to correct poor driving habits."
Would that this reasoning were applied to speeding.
Peter Ward said:
FunkyGibbon said:
"While there is sufficient evidence in this case to justify a prosecution, there is no provision in law for a Magistrate to order such retraining and the imposition of a fine and penalty points will not do anything to correct poor driving habits."
Would that this reasoning were applied to speeding.
Making people think about speed limits is unlikely to increase uncritical compliance...
vonhosen said:
chrispy porker said:
How can he be prosecuted in, say, 2 and a half years time for a summary offence which he has already committed?
Anyone know the answer?
Anyone know the answer?
Well if the information was laid for the summons within six months, it can be served 3 years later, it doesn't have to be served straight away.
In normal circumstances you may be able to argue abuse of process with such a delay, but in these circumstances I'd say it's quite reasonable.
I'd say it was unreasonable to deliberately delay a case by 3 years. And I am sure the witnesses and the CPS and the Magistrates would think so too. Would the OP want to go to court in 3 years time?
I don't fall out with the outcome of all this but the process seems flawed.
Peter Ward said:
FunkyGibbon said:
"While there is sufficient evidence in this case to justify a prosecution, there is no provision in law for a Magistrate to order such retraining and the imposition of a fine and penalty points will not do anything to correct poor driving habits."
Would that this reasoning were applied to speeding.
Section 34 of the New Road Safety Act 2006 will courts the power to send you on training courses for a number of offences including speeding.
BliarOut said:
Stuff
Well I must admit I found that quite interesting.
The abnormal streak in me says if I ever get an offer of one of these and I feel it was unnecessary then I should tell them to shove it up their arse.
However, if I were offered one over 3 points then I guess that unless I had something *very* important to do in lieu, I would probably say yes please.
Not so sure I could bite my tongue over any speed camera promotion though...
Edited by princeperch on Saturday 13th January 00:06
princeperch said:
BliarOut said:
Stuff
Well I must admit I found that quite interesting.
The abnormal streak in me says if I ever get an offer of one of these and I feel it was unnecessary then I should tell them to shove it up their arse.
However, if I were offered one over 3 points then I guess that unless I had something *very* important to do in lieu, I would probably say yes please.
Not so sure I could bite my tongue over any speed camera promotion though...
Edited by princeperch on Saturday 13th January 00:06
An interesting perspective - like Bliarout, I have done one of these courses and they are very informative, relaxed and not punitive. As an alternative to a lovely day in court, they will appear VERY attractive should you ever have the misfortune to be presented with the choice.
One of the most interesting aspects is getting to know the other participants, and listening to their reasons for being there. It's quite a cross-section of society - boy racers, timed girlies, "I didn't do anything wrong" types, we even had a bloke who had a Centurion tank parked in his front garden!
You can only take one of these courses in 3 years - if you are prosecuted again, within 3 years of a course, you go to court, end of story.
A very positive bit of policing, and I actually enjoyed my course.
princeperch said:
BliarOut said:
Stuff
The abnormal streak in me says if I ever get an offer of one of these and I feel it was unnecessary then I should tell them to shove it up their arse.
The first chapter of Roadcraft deals with 'resistance to learning'.
Blairout - interesting write up, a good insight as to what goes on at these things, I think that the general principal of education is very good, there does exist a 'grey area' of offence / accident where education and an effort to weed out some ingrained bad habits is better than the 'fine/point' system, both for the individual concerned and the rest of the road going public.
vonhosen said:
Peter Ward said:
FunkyGibbon said:
"While there is sufficient evidence in this case to justify a prosecution, there is no provision in law for a Magistrate to order such retraining and the imposition of a fine and penalty points will not do anything to correct poor driving habits."
Would that this reasoning were applied to speeding.
Section 34 of the New Road Safety Act 2006 will courts the power to send you on training courses for a number of offences including speeding.
I think some SCPs offer this already ?
FunkyGibbon said:
vonhosen said:
Peter Ward said:
FunkyGibbon said:
"While there is sufficient evidence in this case to justify a prosecution, there is no provision in law for a Magistrate to order such retraining and the imposition of a fine and penalty points will not do anything to correct poor driving habits."
Would that this reasoning were applied to speeding.
Section 34 of the New Road Safety Act 2006 will courts the power to send you on training courses for a number of offences including speeding.
I think some SCPs offer this already ?
The Police/SCPs can, but it is entirely at their discretion.
The courts at the moment can't, but under the Road Safety Act it will be a sentencing option open to them.
vonhosen said:
FunkyGibbon said:
vonhosen said:
Peter Ward said:
FunkyGibbon said:
"While there is sufficient evidence in this case to justify a prosecution, there is no provision in law for a Magistrate to order such retraining and the imposition of a fine and penalty points will not do anything to correct poor driving habits."
Would that this reasoning were applied to speeding.
Section 34 of the New Road Safety Act 2006 will courts the power to send you on training courses for a number of offences including speeding.
I think some SCPs offer this already ?
The Police/SCPs can, but it is entirely at their discretion.
The courts at the moment can't, but under the Road Safety Act it will be a sentencing option open to them.
any very sensible too IMHO
Edited by FunkyGibbon on Saturday 13th January 13:02
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