Discussion
kaiser77 said:
Anyone got any ideas of these performance wise? I appreciate their pretty old but are they still fairly quick?
The 3000M Turbo was faster than the contemporary 911 Turbo.
They were ridiculously quick off the mark. I think that they were the fastest accelerating car of their day.
But I expect that they were nasty laggy things to drive.
I'd prefer a tuned, but normally aspirated Essex V6.
Fast ...The first 6 cars retained the 3.45 ratio diff and a top speed of 110, hence the rep for being quick off the mark but you could over rev. it and blow oil out of the dip stick, the later cars were slower off the mark and better at the top end ..I ran 292 bhp and hope to be running 310bhp with a fully mapped version...standard cars need 2000ukp to bring them up to a SAFE spec. in relation to fuel tank/cooling/boost retard/unlead conversion/brakes/tyres. Under developed in their day....WOULD NEVER BE WITHOUT ONE EVER...owned 6 and I've seen boost at standstill on several well sorted cars with boost normally coming in at 2700rpm almost zero lag......BUT DO NOT expect to see more than 190bhp out of a standard 'retarded for safety' car BUY ONE NOW!
Adrian@
Adrian@
kaiser77 said:
Anyone got any ideas of these performance wise? I appreciate their pretty old but are they still fairly quick?
They are fairly quick standard, and can be made more so without huge expenditure.
We have a 1978 3000S Turbo. Myself and one other knowledgeable owner
have developed it over a period of 19 years. It is as Adrian describes, retarded to be safe, but still produces approx 100bhp pre liter. The engine is 3100cc with big valve flowed heads. It has a 270 Deg cam, is lightened and balanced and the carburetor and inlet manifold have both been modified. There are no expensive bits in there.
Turbo is a KKK blower that was sized for the engine. Boost is manually variable, up to 15 psi. Exhaust was a one off with larger primaries and a 65mm dia pipe off the blower. The car has a properly sorted cooling system and runs cool (70-75 deg C) in normal use.
In it's better days the car would comfortably beat SEACs and Griff 500s over a standing quarter mile. At Zolder last year, the cars first real run out after being out of our ownership for a wee while, it was disappointing with big lag and lost out to Griffs in the first 200 yds of acceleration in the sprint, but started to wind them in after that.
I spoke with the respected Turbo builder who supplied the unit in 1988 to be told that all that was likely to be wrong was carbon build up. The turbo will come off, be de-coked, refurbished generally, and have a needle roller bearing conversion –200 GBP.
I hope to have this work done soon to get the car ready for use in Spring. The car is a quick competent car by any standards, 70s or current and we are glad to have it back.
My advice would be to buy if you understand what you are getting – you won’t regret it if your homework has been done on the vehicle you buy.
kaiser77
Surprisingly quick (and quiet for a TVR, more like a magic carpet!!!) Underestimate at your peril!
Pat H
Very little obvious lag, the essex engine is very torquey and that tends to hide some of the turbo spin-up.
However besides Adrian's safety mods, they really do need to be sorted in the suspension and braking department, a couple more K spent here should make them handle and stop well.
Mid-range punch is devasting, also you can make cornering more interesting by using the boost to regain neutrality when the front runs wide (understeers).
I drove TVR79's old car on a circuit day and regularly came across an Escort Cosworth on the track, which we would either leave or gain on (depending on track position) on the straights, but corners were a different proposition!
I also remember Daftlad's car at Zolder after its big rebuild, very quick in the hands of a committed driver!
davidy
Surprisingly quick (and quiet for a TVR, more like a magic carpet!!!) Underestimate at your peril!
Pat H
Very little obvious lag, the essex engine is very torquey and that tends to hide some of the turbo spin-up.
However besides Adrian's safety mods, they really do need to be sorted in the suspension and braking department, a couple more K spent here should make them handle and stop well.
Mid-range punch is devasting, also you can make cornering more interesting by using the boost to regain neutrality when the front runs wide (understeers).
I drove TVR79's old car on a circuit day and regularly came across an Escort Cosworth on the track, which we would either leave or gain on (depending on track position) on the straights, but corners were a different proposition!
I also remember Daftlad's car at Zolder after its big rebuild, very quick in the hands of a committed driver!
davidy
Excellent advice from two turbo experts. I bought my 3000S turbo replica almost 4 years ago and it is everything I wanted and more. The lag is not too bad at all, but when the boost comes in it is devastating in a straight line. Do your homework and buy the most sorted car you can find.
Oliver - UCK607V.
Oliver - UCK607V.
Just reading this thread I was wondering why you would go for a Turbo over a 302 V8 engined M ??
The V8 302 can easily have 300bhp - loads of torque across a good spread of the rev range - no turbo lag and a lot more tuning potential and less to go wrong.
I dug the TVR Gold Portfolio out with the TVR Tuscan V8 Wide Body Road and Track review. This car looks like a 5000M and was offered up by TVR Cars of America. The figures are for the base 220bhp model. The middle of the range car has 250bhp with the Boss having 300bhp.
The Turbo is listed later on in the book at 235bhp in the text and 265bhp in the spec. The reviewer was very polite but talks of overheating and starting problems ...
The V8 car is 2340lbs where as the Turbo equivalent hardtop is 2220lbs (I think) so the power/weight will also be close.
What say the Turbo owners :-)
Don't even go there....The factory quoted figures were just figures! at a time when we could buy high octane fuel AND where Broadspeed offer to TVR a 218 bhp product! (I have the minutes of a meeting where these are the figures that are quoted) the standard car is never developed further, and as 4 star fuel comes in, the cars are owner developed and the factory quoted 38 degrees max advance is a figure banded about EVEN TODAY as gospel, WHICH WILL cause det. and the big bang can happen along with overheating as you dial the power in and out. It takes a lot of retard and a hugh amount of fuel to keep the car safe. BUT with the correct tuning/matching of valves/exhaust tube size/trick turbo/cooling along with different carb...as in daftlads car (I don't know the BHP, but bloody quick) OR boost retard/fueling/cooling as in my type of standard car (222BHP) OR fully mapped injection that I'm working on now (hopefully 310 BHP, I was running 292bhp prior to the current setup).... THE beauty of these cars is how quietly they do it... Adrian@
Edited by adrian@ on Monday 29th January 22:32
I'm not sure about what got TVR into this but at the time the Bullet Capri was running a switchable setup with a key that you could switch the system off so that the wife could be trusted to do the shopping! and THE MAN could turn it on and control the power (broadspeed adverts of the day NOT MINE) which ran 6 PSI boost and as you can guess boost is power....TVR wanted more power and added PSI and Broadspeed redesigned the air box to suit this (with none of the TVR's ever seeing the Mk1 air boxes). The Blue-printed engine that was offered to TVR in the 10 Martin versions of the car was the base unit with lower compression pistons and tuftrided/cross-drilled crank (TVR had already got the link into Broadspeed) and as with all things TVR the first 4-6 cars quickly developed.....as they either blow up (TVR dialing in more advance and boost or they leave the road at great speed!) with Broadspped bitterly complaining that TVR should stop playing around and return the crashed developement hack back to them so that they can reclaim the engine to put it into another car.
From the 6-8th car onwards the mk3 airbox forms the basis of what we see as the TVR Turbo and also at that point the Mk1 exhausts, TR6 diffs, modified chassis have all gone TVR are left to develop the car.
Adrian@
From the 6-8th car onwards the mk3 airbox forms the basis of what we see as the TVR Turbo and also at that point the Mk1 exhausts, TR6 diffs, modified chassis have all gone TVR are left to develop the car.
Adrian@
Edited by adrian@ on Tuesday 30th January 14:35
Adrian,
From the Capri Australia Website ....
In South Africa they decided to discard the indelible Essex V6 for a V8. They used an American Ford Mustang 302 V8, added a high performance camshaft, special manifolds and a Holley four-barrel carburettor to increase the engines output to 281bhp. This resulted in a "fire breathing" Capri capable of 143mph and producing torque of 300lb ft at 3500rpm. Just over 500 Peranas were built between 1970 and 1973 when production ceased. The Perana was so fast that it won 12 out of 13 races in the 1970 season and was subsequently banned from any further racing!
Looks like the TVR and Capri histories were linked quite closely.
Want to have a go in the 5000M to compare - can you do my anti-roll bar at the same time and report back ??
Having been out to the Woodwork meetings in the US twice and seen several V8 powered Ms, this is an interesting thread. The V8s do go well, and are probably a less highly stressed and thus more reliable option as a performance car. And as John Wadman built 10 5 litre Ms/Taimars from new, they are virtually original cars in North America. One car I do drool over is Al Way's wide bodied Tuscan 302 - totally gorgeous.
But in the UK I think that a combination of the (marginally!) better fuel consumption of the turbo, plus the fact that it was the factory built option that proved quicker than the Porsche 911 and was "Motor"s fastest ever accelerating convertible counts for a lot. There is something to be said in owning an example of the first British production turbo charged car - it may have it's faults, but boy is it FUN! The beauty of TVRs is that you can put a V8 in a standard m and have a fum car, and a credible alternative to the turbos, so I would never criticise anyone for doing it.
Luckily there are heroes like Adrian out there keeping us on the road.
Oliver.
But in the UK I think that a combination of the (marginally!) better fuel consumption of the turbo, plus the fact that it was the factory built option that proved quicker than the Porsche 911 and was "Motor"s fastest ever accelerating convertible counts for a lot. There is something to be said in owning an example of the first British production turbo charged car - it may have it's faults, but boy is it FUN! The beauty of TVRs is that you can put a V8 in a standard m and have a fum car, and a credible alternative to the turbos, so I would never criticise anyone for doing it.
Luckily there are heroes like Adrian out there keeping us on the road.
Oliver.
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