Opinions sought on US purchase rights to Ultima Franchise...
Discussion
This is a first time post from a long time admirer of the Ultima marque. What I am seeking is general non-bias opinions and information from some of those who post in this forum. As you know Mr. Marlow has offered for sale the rights to manufacture and distribute the Ultima GTR stateside. I have spoken with individuals who are interested and have sought information from Mr. Marlow regarding purchasing the rights and am personally considering the opportunity myself. What I am interested in hearing from you are your thoughts on the sales potential of the GTR in the states in contrast to what Ultima has accomplished in the UK and surrounding areas.
This would not be a "bottom line" type of venture for me but rather an opportunity to pursue something that is different and could allow me to invest some capital into something other that commodities and RealEstate. Essentially I want to have fun and pursue my passion and interest which is the automobile beyond just simply purchasing and driving. I have looked at this from the risk/gain perspective and it really does not concern me as I feel that the car would sell in sufficient numbers as to recoup my investment. If not....so beit. What I am interested in doing is broadening the marque as widely as possible because I feel that it represents a new direction and option for motoring enthusiasts.
What I would like to hear from some of you if you are interested is what would you do and what would you expect from this venture if you personally were in a position to do it. There is no better place to ask this than on a site where enthusiasts participate and share opinions.
Assume you have just written the check and have the greenlight to begin......................... you have a blank check so have fun
Thanks
This would not be a "bottom line" type of venture for me but rather an opportunity to pursue something that is different and could allow me to invest some capital into something other that commodities and RealEstate. Essentially I want to have fun and pursue my passion and interest which is the automobile beyond just simply purchasing and driving. I have looked at this from the risk/gain perspective and it really does not concern me as I feel that the car would sell in sufficient numbers as to recoup my investment. If not....so beit. What I am interested in doing is broadening the marque as widely as possible because I feel that it represents a new direction and option for motoring enthusiasts.
What I would like to hear from some of you if you are interested is what would you do and what would you expect from this venture if you personally were in a position to do it. There is no better place to ask this than on a site where enthusiasts participate and share opinions.
Assume you have just written the check and have the greenlight to begin......................... you have a blank check so have fun
Thanks
Edited by VanVondenburgh on Saturday 20th January 18:22
Hi there Frederick,
I own an Ultima GTR that is about one month away from completion. I am building the car in Hong Kong, where the car will be subject to EURO4 emissions testing. Consequently I was forced to use a Gen III enine rather than a small block. I was initially worried about the "hi-tech" option, however after researching and learning more I am so glad that I was forced to go this way.
I chose to use an LS2 with a magnacharger as that setup is California smog approved. which is the same as Euro4. The engine + transmission package was put together by Jeff Scwartz of www.schwartzperformance.com. I chose him because he is a builder who has an Ultima himself. If you look at his website you will see that his car now has a twin turbo setup in it, and he recently won the Silver State 0-200-0 challenge. His car has extensive press coverage and he is respected in the car building community. Jeff was extremely helpful, if I were you I would be talking to him.
Jeff and I took his car on Hot Rod Power Tour last year. I am trying to arrange to bring mine over this year, watch Pistonheads for further updates, you should try to catch us somewhere along the way.
In my mind the Ultima needs a lot more coverage in the USA. Jeff and I spoke a lot about this on Power Tour last year and we thought that they should be offered with GM's LS, Ford's Twincam and the new Hemi engine, that way you'd cater to all 3 sections of the market. Id make a demonstrator with each engine and I think just that alone would get you loads of press coverage as by using the same platform you'd be putting all 3 engines against each other.
I would also offer a better interior package for those that wanted something a bit fancier.
I would also give a free Can-am to anyone building an Ultima in Hong Kong
All the best with the Ultima-rights purchase.
Regards
Grant Craft
I own an Ultima GTR that is about one month away from completion. I am building the car in Hong Kong, where the car will be subject to EURO4 emissions testing. Consequently I was forced to use a Gen III enine rather than a small block. I was initially worried about the "hi-tech" option, however after researching and learning more I am so glad that I was forced to go this way.
I chose to use an LS2 with a magnacharger as that setup is California smog approved. which is the same as Euro4. The engine + transmission package was put together by Jeff Scwartz of www.schwartzperformance.com. I chose him because he is a builder who has an Ultima himself. If you look at his website you will see that his car now has a twin turbo setup in it, and he recently won the Silver State 0-200-0 challenge. His car has extensive press coverage and he is respected in the car building community. Jeff was extremely helpful, if I were you I would be talking to him.
Jeff and I took his car on Hot Rod Power Tour last year. I am trying to arrange to bring mine over this year, watch Pistonheads for further updates, you should try to catch us somewhere along the way.
In my mind the Ultima needs a lot more coverage in the USA. Jeff and I spoke a lot about this on Power Tour last year and we thought that they should be offered with GM's LS, Ford's Twincam and the new Hemi engine, that way you'd cater to all 3 sections of the market. Id make a demonstrator with each engine and I think just that alone would get you loads of press coverage as by using the same platform you'd be putting all 3 engines against each other.
I would also offer a better interior package for those that wanted something a bit fancier.
I would also give a free Can-am to anyone building an Ultima in Hong Kong
All the best with the Ultima-rights purchase.
Regards
Grant Craft
I'll throw my .02 in.
Advertising would be key. I was asked no less than 20 times last week what the car was in a 45min period outside a Starbucks. Price wise the car is competitive. Look at what Barrett Jackson is getting for cars these days. No it's not a 60's muscle car, but come on. Today a rare Camaro went for $445K. Just having the body moulds available in the USA would be great. Shipping on stuff can be as expensive, or ever more so, than the parts you need. I don't even want to think what a body would cost to get here.
Along with that, I would source a lot of stuff locally to the USA. Too much of the car is built from cars only available in Europe. Wheel bearings, lights, etc...
I completely agree with Crafty on the LSx series of motors. Mine started with a 427 SBC, and now runs a 347Cu LS6. The new motor is worlds better, with no oil leaks, overheating, etc... The new LS7 is the perfect motor for the car.
And here is my wish (bitch) list (but honestly the car is really cool):
1. Stronger outer CV's, half shafts and stub axles. USA customers drag race,and the current stuff is not up to the task.
2) Different shock and spring packages. Intrax is not known in the USA. Ohlins/Penske/Koni would be nice.
3) Front suspension needs longer a-arms with less scrub radius and swaybars. Also needs at least 6 degrees of castor.
4) LSx (LS7) engine option with headers. Right now headers are a 6K proposition.
5) Front tires that do not rub the bodywork and headlight covers, along with being wider. 285/30/18 comes to mind.
6. Side windows that open at the back for air.
7. Full interior options.
8. If I was making the car in the USA, I would offer a full turn key car.
9. Nicer headlight options. Adjusting them is hard as best, and impossible at worst.
10. Race/Aircraft spec wiring harness, with Keys that do no say Lucas...
11. GTR-R body work for track use, something like GTWayne, Pee, or MarkP's car, along with Race only mods. We have a lot of open track junkies in the US. air jacks, tunnels, fuel cell, etc...
10. Inboard pushrod suspension? Why - better motion ratio, and hey it's cool.
I think with this you could sell 40-50 a year here. I don't think you would get rich, but it would be FUN.
Bill
GTR
Advertising would be key. I was asked no less than 20 times last week what the car was in a 45min period outside a Starbucks. Price wise the car is competitive. Look at what Barrett Jackson is getting for cars these days. No it's not a 60's muscle car, but come on. Today a rare Camaro went for $445K. Just having the body moulds available in the USA would be great. Shipping on stuff can be as expensive, or ever more so, than the parts you need. I don't even want to think what a body would cost to get here.
Along with that, I would source a lot of stuff locally to the USA. Too much of the car is built from cars only available in Europe. Wheel bearings, lights, etc...
I completely agree with Crafty on the LSx series of motors. Mine started with a 427 SBC, and now runs a 347Cu LS6. The new motor is worlds better, with no oil leaks, overheating, etc... The new LS7 is the perfect motor for the car.
And here is my wish (bitch) list (but honestly the car is really cool):
1. Stronger outer CV's, half shafts and stub axles. USA customers drag race,and the current stuff is not up to the task.
2) Different shock and spring packages. Intrax is not known in the USA. Ohlins/Penske/Koni would be nice.
3) Front suspension needs longer a-arms with less scrub radius and swaybars. Also needs at least 6 degrees of castor.
4) LSx (LS7) engine option with headers. Right now headers are a 6K proposition.
5) Front tires that do not rub the bodywork and headlight covers, along with being wider. 285/30/18 comes to mind.
6. Side windows that open at the back for air.
7. Full interior options.
8. If I was making the car in the USA, I would offer a full turn key car.
9. Nicer headlight options. Adjusting them is hard as best, and impossible at worst.
10. Race/Aircraft spec wiring harness, with Keys that do no say Lucas...
11. GTR-R body work for track use, something like GTWayne, Pee, or MarkP's car, along with Race only mods. We have a lot of open track junkies in the US. air jacks, tunnels, fuel cell, etc...
10. Inboard pushrod suspension? Why - better motion ratio, and hey it's cool.
I think with this you could sell 40-50 a year here. I don't think you would get rich, but it would be FUN.
Bill
GTR
I'd say offer them partially built rollers like Noble does. Refer to an authorized service facility for engine installs. But keep selling them as kits as well. If you are going to compete against Saleen, Mosler, Brammo, etc, You'll limit the market to a handfull of cars per year, volume is the key. The market will separate the crappy home built ones from the well built and factory built. If you're worried about confusion, separate the models: GTR for kit GTRF for factory built, or something like that.
Definately ditch the SBC and use the LS series - redesign the fuel system(tanks) for fuel injection.
I'm not sure about offering engines from different marques though - i would leave that to individuals - seems like a support nightmare otherwise.
I'm not sure about offering engines from different marques though - i would leave that to individuals - seems like a support nightmare otherwise.
Edited by eliot on Sunday 21st January 07:32
For the love of all things good and pure...do it asap!! I'm going to make the leap in about a year and would love to be a customer of yours. Thanks to Mr. Schwartz's Z2Z win against Big Red the Ultima's popularity is and will continue to skyrocket. There are a lot of new guys with a lot of “new money” that are wanting to have the ultimate sports car. You offer it in the US and the orders will roll in quickly.
As far as mods. Ditch the sbc and go with the LSX engines. To have such a exotic car that out performs everything but still runs very old technology will be a negative here. The LSX's design is far superior and power upgrades are much easier to obtain. Offer a 400-500 hp slightly modified LS2 motor with the complete package and I'd say you have an irresistible combination that will sell quickly. The current offers from Ultima are little disappointing in regards to the sbc.
As far as mods. Ditch the sbc and go with the LSX engines. To have such a exotic car that out performs everything but still runs very old technology will be a negative here. The LSX's design is far superior and power upgrades are much easier to obtain. Offer a 400-500 hp slightly modified LS2 motor with the complete package and I'd say you have an irresistible combination that will sell quickly. The current offers from Ultima are little disappointing in regards to the sbc.
I agree that having the kits available stateside would be a huge benefit. I am saving towards a kit, but have noticed a few things that many people change over here and will probably be doing these myself.
1) Headlights - look into HID bulbs, and maybe a different cover that makes them easier to aim/service and that don't rub on the front tires.
2) Steering column - many people want more creature comforts with less buttons on the dash. Being able to retrofit a tilt colums with wiper controls, etc on the column would be useful and make the car more every day liveable.
3) Halfshafts - We do like to go fast in a straight line here. Jeff Schwartz has come up with a stronger design. I would suggest talking to him and making those part of your offering if you get to that point.
4) Fuel injection is king over here now. If the car is not made with the latest and best technology, it will lose recognition in the market here. People with money want the best of the best. So your fuel system and stuff would need to be revised to properly support the late model engines.
5) Locally sourced components are helpful (washer reservoirs, bearings, etc). That would help the builder find their own parts if they are on a budget. It would also help an owner that may need to replace a part at some point. Sourcing them from England is expensive. Going down to your local parts store or junkyard is much easier and more affordable.
And I totally agree with Grant (crafty) and Jeff on advertising. I would say exposure and as much as you can get. Magazines, TV shows, Car Shows / events; try to get it all. That would get the car in front of the people and noticed by those with the money for the toys. Maybe even sponsoring some of the stateside guys that regularly race their cars would help as well.
1) Headlights - look into HID bulbs, and maybe a different cover that makes them easier to aim/service and that don't rub on the front tires.
2) Steering column - many people want more creature comforts with less buttons on the dash. Being able to retrofit a tilt colums with wiper controls, etc on the column would be useful and make the car more every day liveable.
3) Halfshafts - We do like to go fast in a straight line here. Jeff Schwartz has come up with a stronger design. I would suggest talking to him and making those part of your offering if you get to that point.
4) Fuel injection is king over here now. If the car is not made with the latest and best technology, it will lose recognition in the market here. People with money want the best of the best. So your fuel system and stuff would need to be revised to properly support the late model engines.
5) Locally sourced components are helpful (washer reservoirs, bearings, etc). That would help the builder find their own parts if they are on a budget. It would also help an owner that may need to replace a part at some point. Sourcing them from England is expensive. Going down to your local parts store or junkyard is much easier and more affordable.
And I totally agree with Grant (crafty) and Jeff on advertising. I would say exposure and as much as you can get. Magazines, TV shows, Car Shows / events; try to get it all. That would get the car in front of the people and noticed by those with the money for the toys. Maybe even sponsoring some of the stateside guys that regularly race their cars would help as well.
Edited by Hugger Z on Sunday 21st January 19:06
Mr. V,
I too have given some thought into the purchase. The biggest challenge is marketing and brand awareness. I believe the way to make this work is to offer approved current owners an incentive for selling kits. It doesn't have to be a lot (say 2% of the kit cost). This would inspire them to attend car shows, talk to people in gas stations, etc. The rules for non-DOT approved cars would preclude you (I believe) to offer a full solution including sourcing the engine and trans. I agree with the others LSx comments. I would think it mandatory that you mftr the chassis and body in the US, rather than UK. Otherwise, what is the reason for buying it from the "middleman"?
Paul
I too have given some thought into the purchase. The biggest challenge is marketing and brand awareness. I believe the way to make this work is to offer approved current owners an incentive for selling kits. It doesn't have to be a lot (say 2% of the kit cost). This would inspire them to attend car shows, talk to people in gas stations, etc. The rules for non-DOT approved cars would preclude you (I believe) to offer a full solution including sourcing the engine and trans. I agree with the others LSx comments. I would think it mandatory that you mftr the chassis and body in the US, rather than UK. Otherwise, what is the reason for buying it from the "middleman"?
Paul
What would there be stoping someone from starting up a company (could be anywhere) that sold an “Ultima Replica”?????
this would be a significant issue for me if I were to be investing the money into the rights to produce the kit outside of the UK
Otherwise anyone would only have to take some moulds from an existing body, and there would be a direct competitor to you business, with what looks like significantly less overhead.
You would want to make sure that the end quality of your kit was of an acceptably high standard to combat this, and taking on some of the suggestions mentioned previously might well be a wise consideration.
A few years back Ultima Sports did have a few official distributors around the world, there was a company in Australia that used to make cars under licence hear – there was even a magazine road test of a car from this company that was featured on the UK companies web site.
I have heard (not seen) that a set of moulds exists in Australia.
Crafty touched on something else in his post as well. Other countries around the world require different emissions, and if the package that you develop could meet some of these requirements then you potentially have an even bigger market as this seems like something that the UK arm are not interested in.
this would be a significant issue for me if I were to be investing the money into the rights to produce the kit outside of the UK
Otherwise anyone would only have to take some moulds from an existing body, and there would be a direct competitor to you business, with what looks like significantly less overhead.
You would want to make sure that the end quality of your kit was of an acceptably high standard to combat this, and taking on some of the suggestions mentioned previously might well be a wise consideration.
A few years back Ultima Sports did have a few official distributors around the world, there was a company in Australia that used to make cars under licence hear – there was even a magazine road test of a car from this company that was featured on the UK companies web site.
I have heard (not seen) that a set of moulds exists in Australia.
Crafty touched on something else in his post as well. Other countries around the world require different emissions, and if the package that you develop could meet some of these requirements then you potentially have an even bigger market as this seems like something that the UK arm are not interested in.
I wouldn't worry about copies. Good moulds are about 30-40K. Getting drawings, sourcing parts, etc... Your probably into it 2 mill US to make a copy. If I were going to spend 2 million, I would look to being original.
That being said, you can copyright the body and pieces. Then someone would need to significantly change the look in order to "copy" it. Personally I think if others start making bodies for your chassis, that is a complement, not a hinderance.
Bill
That being said, you can copyright the body and pieces. Then someone would need to significantly change the look in order to "copy" it. Personally I think if others start making bodies for your chassis, that is a complement, not a hinderance.
Bill
“rights to manufacture and distribute”
Is that all parts everything? What about jigs and moulds?
What about if you want to change any of the parts your self?
For example if you make oval wishbones, change the door seals, well offer something the factory doesn’t. How would that work?
As you can see the option of being able to fit different engines is one most people agree with along with me it has to be injection every time.
I agree with tblackey that the car could do with a few updates, things like a better wiring harness are easy to sort out, but inboard shocks are going to need designing, jigs making and testing. Don't get me wrong I really love the car I have one after all (all be it not finished yet), but it is my understanding the GTR only had a few changes since the Sport and the GTR so maybe it is coming up to update time, maybe this is what the sale is for who knows?
It must be nice to be in the position to consider it. Good luck
Peter
Is that all parts everything? What about jigs and moulds?
What about if you want to change any of the parts your self?
For example if you make oval wishbones, change the door seals, well offer something the factory doesn’t. How would that work?
As you can see the option of being able to fit different engines is one most people agree with along with me it has to be injection every time.
I agree with tblackey that the car could do with a few updates, things like a better wiring harness are easy to sort out, but inboard shocks are going to need designing, jigs making and testing. Don't get me wrong I really love the car I have one after all (all be it not finished yet), but it is my understanding the GTR only had a few changes since the Sport and the GTR so maybe it is coming up to update time, maybe this is what the sale is for who knows?
It must be nice to be in the position to consider it. Good luck
Peter
I have been following the GTR for Years and was saving for one until I saw the GTM by Factoryfive.com. I think eventually the GTM will be the closest direct "Kit" competitor in todays market. Eventually is the keyword. The GTR has had years to work out the Kit assemble process and the GTM has just started.
One of the few reasons I made the change from the GTR to GTM is "Made is USA", Roll up windows, LS motor, Car Shape and Common/Donor parts.
Freds quote
"I have looked at this from the risk/gain perspective and it really does not concern me as I feel that the car would sell in sufficient numbers as to recoup my investment." If not....so beit."
I would approach this business as a labor of Love. Do it because you enjoy the business and the people you meet while doing it. Not the money because there is not going to be much of it. IMHO
Karlo
One of the few reasons I made the change from the GTR to GTM is "Made is USA", Roll up windows, LS motor, Car Shape and Common/Donor parts.
Freds quote
"I have looked at this from the risk/gain perspective and it really does not concern me as I feel that the car would sell in sufficient numbers as to recoup my investment." If not....so beit."
I would approach this business as a labor of Love. Do it because you enjoy the business and the people you meet while doing it. Not the money because there is not going to be much of it. IMHO
Karlo
interesting comments! Having an ultima now for 9 years (!) i started in '97 and car went on the road in early '99 i have been amazed at the changes re Ultima. When I started the build Ultimas were very rare, self build only, and were a bit "kit car" ish. Lots of silly things about the build, bodywork that was impossible to finish and under the skin quite a "standard" car. Over the years it has changed.... now my Ford brakes (which stop a 2 ton ford saloon) have been replaced by brakes larger than my wheels, engines with starter motors pumping out more than my weedy 355bhp, and guys spending upto $180k on the cars! It has got a LOT better. Question is (and you may not want to answer!) what sort of car do you want to build/sell?
1) A British self-build high performance car for petrolheads (sorry gasheads) or
2) A turnkey supercar for rich guys to show and shine and keep in a garage and say they have a "bigger one" than anyone else?
I guess its a bit like TVR going from the UK to Italy... it wont be a british sports car anymore (all be it one that was badly finished and a dog to try to service and fix)... but it WAS British. As Ultima is.
If you want to make money I think you could sell to rich guys as turnkey cars and charge $250k easy (still cheaper than anything like it in the states).
Not sure if you can make real money otherwise, but as I say it all depends on the object of the exercise.
Excuse the ramblings of an old bloke, no harm intended, just interested in your objective.
1) A British self-build high performance car for petrolheads (sorry gasheads) or
2) A turnkey supercar for rich guys to show and shine and keep in a garage and say they have a "bigger one" than anyone else?
I guess its a bit like TVR going from the UK to Italy... it wont be a british sports car anymore (all be it one that was badly finished and a dog to try to service and fix)... but it WAS British. As Ultima is.
If you want to make money I think you could sell to rich guys as turnkey cars and charge $250k easy (still cheaper than anything like it in the states).
Not sure if you can make real money otherwise, but as I say it all depends on the object of the exercise.
Excuse the ramblings of an old bloke, no harm intended, just interested in your objective.
One of the things which put me off buidling an Ultima was the blinkered view the factory had about keeping it all 'factory standard' and I was genuinely worried that I would be cut off from technical support because I didn't follow the hallowed path (this was actually a rumour at the time).
As much as I fully appreciated the old addage that 'if the system works don't change it', I found the customer experience to be quite a negative and stifling one, whereby my creative mind was being stopped dead in its tracks because 'its not factory standard'. I spent considerable time exploring the motive alternatives that our friends in the Netherlands, Germany, and the USA etc had tried with some success, but was told that 'I wouldn't realise my proper values' if I deviated from the standard path - and that also included buying into the recommended engine supplier. This to me was a form of extortion, I then deliberately chose not to buy from the preffered supplier after I had bought the car and used an English engine builder, albeit still a SBC.
I can honestly say that my Ultima ownership was exciting and in all honestly the product was very good; but it could be spectacular now. If I had a free hand to improve the product there would be numerous changes made, most of which would be non cosmetic as I do believe the shape defines the marque. However, if I was the individual buying the rights to Ultima, the customer would get a lot more choice and I would support them every step of the way regardless of the engine they wanted to put in - do a search for wankel engine on this forum and there was a few good threads which highlight this!
This is a 2007 car so why only offer a 1974 engine
Satisfied customers brings repeat business - dissatisfied customers bring closure.
As much as I fully appreciated the old addage that 'if the system works don't change it', I found the customer experience to be quite a negative and stifling one, whereby my creative mind was being stopped dead in its tracks because 'its not factory standard'. I spent considerable time exploring the motive alternatives that our friends in the Netherlands, Germany, and the USA etc had tried with some success, but was told that 'I wouldn't realise my proper values' if I deviated from the standard path - and that also included buying into the recommended engine supplier. This to me was a form of extortion, I then deliberately chose not to buy from the preffered supplier after I had bought the car and used an English engine builder, albeit still a SBC.
I can honestly say that my Ultima ownership was exciting and in all honestly the product was very good; but it could be spectacular now. If I had a free hand to improve the product there would be numerous changes made, most of which would be non cosmetic as I do believe the shape defines the marque. However, if I was the individual buying the rights to Ultima, the customer would get a lot more choice and I would support them every step of the way regardless of the engine they wanted to put in - do a search for wankel engine on this forum and there was a few good threads which highlight this!
This is a 2007 car so why only offer a 1974 engine
Satisfied customers brings repeat business - dissatisfied customers bring closure.But if you are a small company and you have a product which needs support, how can you possibly cover all permutations of non standard build? You can't.
Regarding engine choice though, I don't understand why AS don't have an Ultima LS7 turnkey ready/nearly ready if they already supply crate LS7 engines, non Ultima specific.
Personally, I think the 3 areas needing improvement are:
Front clam
Interior
Engine.
The front is starting to look quite dated, I don't think it needs a dramatic change, just a freshen up, similar to Waynes.
Interior - Westfield, Caterham, Radical are miles better, there are some nice interiors out there but they seem to take a huge amount of work/expense to get like that.
Engine - LSx, no brainer
imo
Regarding engine choice though, I don't understand why AS don't have an Ultima LS7 turnkey ready/nearly ready if they already supply crate LS7 engines, non Ultima specific.
Personally, I think the 3 areas needing improvement are:
Front clam
Interior
Engine.
The front is starting to look quite dated, I don't think it needs a dramatic change, just a freshen up, similar to Waynes.
Interior - Westfield, Caterham, Radical are miles better, there are some nice interiors out there but they seem to take a huge amount of work/expense to get like that.
Engine - LSx, no brainer
imo
I think we maybe straying away for the topic in hand, but....
Ultima is just like all the other kit car company’s Caterham, Westfield etc.
They would like you buy every item from them, sticking the to factory standard, they make more money that way, and why not, that is the whole point of a business after all. I don’t think any one should deprive them of a living.
I have to say for me, the whole point of building a car is so I can have it the way I want it. For example I have a set of rather sexy pedals out of a F3 car I also want to run a LS injection engine, the factory don’t offer this so I have to go else where. Making it “non factory standard” does this mean it is any less of a car or worth less?
If the factory offered the items I wanted, it would make my life easier, but form a business point of view they can not possible keep in stock every part for every option.
The bit I just don’t understand is if enough people say they want it why don’t they do it? This seems to be the case with all kit car companies.
Example you wanted a different colour body than the standard, well they are all made to order so why not? It’s only a bit of gelcoat.
I remember Ultima made some carbon fibre body work, but I think it was not cost effected to sell, carbon fibre cost a lot of money so it makes sense, but why not offer it as another option?
If the customer wants it they can have it, it’ll just cost you more
Ultima is just like all the other kit car company’s Caterham, Westfield etc.
They would like you buy every item from them, sticking the to factory standard, they make more money that way, and why not, that is the whole point of a business after all. I don’t think any one should deprive them of a living.
I have to say for me, the whole point of building a car is so I can have it the way I want it. For example I have a set of rather sexy pedals out of a F3 car I also want to run a LS injection engine, the factory don’t offer this so I have to go else where. Making it “non factory standard” does this mean it is any less of a car or worth less?
If the factory offered the items I wanted, it would make my life easier, but form a business point of view they can not possible keep in stock every part for every option.
The bit I just don’t understand is if enough people say they want it why don’t they do it? This seems to be the case with all kit car companies.
Example you wanted a different colour body than the standard, well they are all made to order so why not? It’s only a bit of gelcoat.
I remember Ultima made some carbon fibre body work, but I think it was not cost effected to sell, carbon fibre cost a lot of money so it makes sense, but why not offer it as another option?
If the customer wants it they can have it, it’ll just cost you more
Honestly? With a blank check, I think you can design a completely new vehicle. As you are probably aware, the key to selling lots of cars is going to be marketing; price, product, and promotion (distribution). Nobody knows what an Ultima is in the USA. Even if you go to a track-day event, it's rare that the people you talk to know the car. You will need to spend more in this area your first couple of years than any other.
That said, the mods required to the Ultima are insignificant compared to the cost of getting the word out about the existance of the car. Your price will have to be based on volume. I don't think most folks will spend $80k-$90k for this type of car unless they are complete gear-heads like me. Get the pricing into the $50k-60k range and I bet you will more-than-double your market...especially with the performance advantages over just about every street car in the USA. And, for the reasons above, I don't think the market has even been touched here.
As a track-day car, you compete on price and performance with the Radical, the SCCA class racers ("D" Sport Racer), and the open-wheel Ford/Mazda racers. These can be had for $45k-$65K.
As a street-legal car, you compete with the Mitsu Evo IX, WRX-STI, Vette Z06, the new Shelby 500 Mustang, BMWs, Mercs, etc.
The Ultima fits just between these categories; "plush" street car with a refined (yet small) luxurious interoir, or purpose-built track-day weapon with no creature-comforts.
To my car, I am adding an in-car PC for a nav system, a couple of cameras (rear and front view), a nice set of digital instruments, and buttons for the horn, turn signals, high-beams, and PTT on the removeable steering wheel. I don't want a posh seat or thumping stereo. Since this is a street car, cup holders would be nice.
As stated in previous posts, you have to decide what your goals are for the car first. What need will you satisfy. Create an identity in the market. Then, clober it with promotion. So, what's it going to be?
A) Self-build supercar?
B) Turn-key supercar?
C) Combination?
D) Roller only?
E) Stripped-down version, or luxurious?
Then, what about the technology moving forward?
A) Engine package? Alternative fuel engines?
B) Upgraded systems?
C) Aero studies (body design)?
D) Emissions and other state/country regulations?
If it were I, I would offer the car three ways; in a box, as a roller, or as a completely customeized, tailor-made, turn-key version for those with big bucks and want the car built to their spec (like a Chip Foose or Boyde Codington hotrod).
There would be three target markets; the home builder, the weekend warrior, and the Ferrari crowd.
You could:
1. start with the Ultima USA purchase and promote the he11 out of it.
2. retool the body forms after some hand lay-up and wind tunnel testing.
3. continue to improve the features, aero and looks (form follows function)
4. continue to work on marketing
5. work on marketing
6. marketing.
Okay, let me know if you want me to run a division out west for you.
That said, the mods required to the Ultima are insignificant compared to the cost of getting the word out about the existance of the car. Your price will have to be based on volume. I don't think most folks will spend $80k-$90k for this type of car unless they are complete gear-heads like me. Get the pricing into the $50k-60k range and I bet you will more-than-double your market...especially with the performance advantages over just about every street car in the USA. And, for the reasons above, I don't think the market has even been touched here.
As a track-day car, you compete on price and performance with the Radical, the SCCA class racers ("D" Sport Racer), and the open-wheel Ford/Mazda racers. These can be had for $45k-$65K.
As a street-legal car, you compete with the Mitsu Evo IX, WRX-STI, Vette Z06, the new Shelby 500 Mustang, BMWs, Mercs, etc.
The Ultima fits just between these categories; "plush" street car with a refined (yet small) luxurious interoir, or purpose-built track-day weapon with no creature-comforts.
To my car, I am adding an in-car PC for a nav system, a couple of cameras (rear and front view), a nice set of digital instruments, and buttons for the horn, turn signals, high-beams, and PTT on the removeable steering wheel. I don't want a posh seat or thumping stereo. Since this is a street car, cup holders would be nice.
As stated in previous posts, you have to decide what your goals are for the car first. What need will you satisfy. Create an identity in the market. Then, clober it with promotion. So, what's it going to be?
A) Self-build supercar?
B) Turn-key supercar?
C) Combination?
D) Roller only?
E) Stripped-down version, or luxurious?
Then, what about the technology moving forward?
A) Engine package? Alternative fuel engines?
B) Upgraded systems?
C) Aero studies (body design)?
D) Emissions and other state/country regulations?
If it were I, I would offer the car three ways; in a box, as a roller, or as a completely customeized, tailor-made, turn-key version for those with big bucks and want the car built to their spec (like a Chip Foose or Boyde Codington hotrod).
There would be three target markets; the home builder, the weekend warrior, and the Ferrari crowd.
You could:
1. start with the Ultima USA purchase and promote the he11 out of it.
2. retool the body forms after some hand lay-up and wind tunnel testing.
3. continue to improve the features, aero and looks (form follows function)
4. continue to work on marketing
5. work on marketing
6. marketing.
Okay, let me know if you want me to run a division out west for you.
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