RE: Scrap traffic lights, says campaign
Tuesday 23rd January 2007
Lights to go?Should traffic lights be abolished? That's the call from one columnist in The Times today.
Scrap traffic lights, says campaign
Columnist and Safe Speed gang up
Lights to go?
Martin Cassini proposed that traffic lights should be removed because they replace skilled and responsible behaviour with inferior state controlled behaviour.
Paul Smith, founder of the road safety campaign Safe Speed, said: "The argument for individual responsibility lies at the core of the Safe Speed campaign -- and so it should -- our road safety system is founded on it. The tragedy is that Department for Transport has been imposing ever tighter controls and restrictions on road use: cameras, humps, speed limit reductions, countless thousands of signs, and massive needless enforcement of regulations.
"These are billion-pound policies that have actually made matters worse.
"But there are ever growing demands for policies that develop and encourage individual responsibility. It's not that we should trust drivers more. Instead we need such policies to get the best possible performance out of our road users; we need to appeal to natural behaviour and build on natural strengths."
"We won't get road safety back on track until we have 'psychologically sound' policies that play to human strengths."
Discussion
First we need to make the lights work. So how to stop the red-light jumpers? Easy IMO, have spikes in the road that raise on red, so if you drive through a red light, you'll have to cough for 4 new tyres. Then you could have the local tyre suppliers sponsor the junction to pay for it all - they'd soon get their money back! 
I can see the need for lights at badly-designed junctions or where the flow adversely affects traffic from one direction without lights
...esp. where there isn't the space (e.g. in-town) to redesign the junction.
But lights on roundabouts are effing stupid, and they seem to be spreading everywhere...in Cov there's a roundabout on the A444 dual-carriageway which has always worked very well. Now they've put lights up and traffic's backed-up in all directions!
Completely disagree with this report.
There are several junctions near my that used to be horrendous if you happened to approach from anything other than the busiest direction. You would be sitting there for several minutes, facing up a steep hill on at least one, waiting for either a gap to launch your car into, or someone to let you out (which never happens when the traffic is flowing at anymore than 15-20mph).
Now, these junctions have traffic lights. Progress is slightly slower than before in the direction of the main roads, but the junctions are actually accessable to everyone else as well.
I'm all for looking at altering traffic lights to improve flow (turning left at red lights where practicle etc), but I feel that the idea of removing lights full stop, as the report suggests (with an implication towards communist control-freakery) would just be daft in many cases.
There are several junctions near my that used to be horrendous if you happened to approach from anything other than the busiest direction. You would be sitting there for several minutes, facing up a steep hill on at least one, waiting for either a gap to launch your car into, or someone to let you out (which never happens when the traffic is flowing at anymore than 15-20mph).
Now, these junctions have traffic lights. Progress is slightly slower than before in the direction of the main roads, but the junctions are actually accessable to everyone else as well.
I'm all for looking at altering traffic lights to improve flow (turning left at red lights where practicle etc), but I feel that the idea of removing lights full stop, as the report suggests (with an implication towards communist control-freakery) would just be daft in many cases.
Seeing as though the government gave the decision on interest rates to the Bank of England, couldn't we give traffic & car policy to the AA & RAC??? 
lord-flasheart said:
Im sorry but that will not work.
You will just get people bombing it across junctions etc.
You will just get people bombing it across junctions etc.
Then you put them in prison for dangerous driving.
They can already bomb across junctions with the lights there, that is the point. If you throw logic out of the window which the above driver in your example already has done, then what does the red light do for them?
It's a symbol of punishment if they go through a red. Why not just say if you drive dangerously you go to prison? Same end result is it not?
Dave
Partially agree... in situations where the removal of a traffic light improves the traffic flow, you're being told one of two things:
a) The traffic light is not necessary.
b) The traffic light is badly timed.
Now, in my experience, traffic lights at roundabouts tend to fall under category (a), and traffic lights at junctions, especially with high volumes of right-turn traffic, under category (b).
The biggest problem is usually that a traffic light too often ends up giving the all-clear to an empty road while traffic backs up elsewhere. Hence the traffic flowing better when the light isn't there, as there's nothing to hold it up.
If you remove lights completely, there are issues. The first is the "timid" driver who waits for a gap you could take off a Tristar in before proceeding. Get behind one of those turning right on a busy junction, and you may as well abandon your car and walk the rest of the way. Maybe they shouldn't be using the roads during rush hour, but the fact is that they are, and have to be accommodated.
The second is you get the near-opposite of the timid driver, the driver on a main road who is driving along thinking, "My right of way, my main road, you can stay in that junction, I've been waiting in this queue five minutes" without realising that the queue they are waiting in is all too often due to people further up being denied progress because the road they're trying to filter on to is "more important, has right of way, you stay there".
I think the lights are necessary, just they don't need to be as widespread as they are, many full-time sets really only need to operate at peak hours, and they should be upgraded to better handle the cases where they keep cars waiting "for nothing".
Oh, and something to deal with red light jumpers who can screw up an entire change cycle if they do something stupid enough in heavy traffic, preferably with a disabling transponder on emergency service vehicles so you can get out of the way without getting a letter through the post.
a) The traffic light is not necessary.
b) The traffic light is badly timed.
Now, in my experience, traffic lights at roundabouts tend to fall under category (a), and traffic lights at junctions, especially with high volumes of right-turn traffic, under category (b).
The biggest problem is usually that a traffic light too often ends up giving the all-clear to an empty road while traffic backs up elsewhere. Hence the traffic flowing better when the light isn't there, as there's nothing to hold it up.
If you remove lights completely, there are issues. The first is the "timid" driver who waits for a gap you could take off a Tristar in before proceeding. Get behind one of those turning right on a busy junction, and you may as well abandon your car and walk the rest of the way. Maybe they shouldn't be using the roads during rush hour, but the fact is that they are, and have to be accommodated.
The second is you get the near-opposite of the timid driver, the driver on a main road who is driving along thinking, "My right of way, my main road, you can stay in that junction, I've been waiting in this queue five minutes" without realising that the queue they are waiting in is all too often due to people further up being denied progress because the road they're trying to filter on to is "more important, has right of way, you stay there".
I think the lights are necessary, just they don't need to be as widespread as they are, many full-time sets really only need to operate at peak hours, and they should be upgraded to better handle the cases where they keep cars waiting "for nothing".
Oh, and something to deal with red light jumpers who can screw up an entire change cycle if they do something stupid enough in heavy traffic, preferably with a disabling transponder on emergency service vehicles so you can get out of the way without getting a letter through the post.
Timberwolf said:
Partially agree... in situations where the removal of a traffic light improves the traffic flow, you're being told one of two things:
a) The traffic light is not necessary.
b) The traffic light is badly timed.
Now, in my experience, traffic lights at roundabouts tend to fall under category (a), and traffic lights at junctions, especially with high volumes of right-turn traffic, under category (b).
a) The traffic light is not necessary.
b) The traffic light is badly timed.
Now, in my experience, traffic lights at roundabouts tend to fall under category (a), and traffic lights at junctions, especially with high volumes of right-turn traffic, under category (b).
Traffic lights have been down for about 2 months on a bradford round about. It is soooooo much better.
Traffic lights at dobsons corner in leeds have significantly improved with traffic lights.
So it's a bit of give and take really.
Timberwolf said:
Partially agree... in situations where the removal of a traffic light improves the traffic flow, you're being told one of two things:
a) The traffic light is not necessary.
b) The traffic light is badly timed.
Now, in my experience, traffic lights at roundabouts tend to fall under category (a), and traffic lights at junctions, especially with high volumes of right-turn traffic, under category (b).
The biggest problem is usually that a traffic light too often ends up giving the all-clear to an empty road while traffic backs up elsewhere. Hence the traffic flowing better when the light isn't there, as there's nothing to hold it up.
If you remove lights completely, there are issues. The first is the "timid" driver who waits for a gap you could take off a Tristar in before proceeding. Get behind one of those turning right on a busy junction, and you may as well abandon your car and walk the rest of the way. Maybe they shouldn't be using the roads during rush hour, but the fact is that they are, and have to be accommodated.
The second is you get the near-opposite of the timid driver, the driver on a main road who is driving along thinking, "My right of way, my main road, you can stay in that junction, I've been waiting in this queue five minutes" without realising that the queue they are waiting in is all too often due to people further up being denied progress because the road they're trying to filter on to is "more important, has right of way, you stay there".
I think the lights are necessary, just they don't need to be as widespread as they are, many full-time sets really only need to operate at peak hours, and they should be upgraded to better handle the cases where they keep cars waiting "for nothing".
Oh, and something to deal with red light jumpers who can screw up an entire change cycle if they do something stupid enough in heavy traffic, preferably with a disabling transponder on emergency service vehicles so you can get out of the way without getting a letter through the post.
a) The traffic light is not necessary.
b) The traffic light is badly timed.
Now, in my experience, traffic lights at roundabouts tend to fall under category (a), and traffic lights at junctions, especially with high volumes of right-turn traffic, under category (b).
The biggest problem is usually that a traffic light too often ends up giving the all-clear to an empty road while traffic backs up elsewhere. Hence the traffic flowing better when the light isn't there, as there's nothing to hold it up.
If you remove lights completely, there are issues. The first is the "timid" driver who waits for a gap you could take off a Tristar in before proceeding. Get behind one of those turning right on a busy junction, and you may as well abandon your car and walk the rest of the way. Maybe they shouldn't be using the roads during rush hour, but the fact is that they are, and have to be accommodated.
The second is you get the near-opposite of the timid driver, the driver on a main road who is driving along thinking, "My right of way, my main road, you can stay in that junction, I've been waiting in this queue five minutes" without realising that the queue they are waiting in is all too often due to people further up being denied progress because the road they're trying to filter on to is "more important, has right of way, you stay there".
I think the lights are necessary, just they don't need to be as widespread as they are, many full-time sets really only need to operate at peak hours, and they should be upgraded to better handle the cases where they keep cars waiting "for nothing".
Oh, and something to deal with red light jumpers who can screw up an entire change cycle if they do something stupid enough in heavy traffic, preferably with a disabling transponder on emergency service vehicles so you can get out of the way without getting a letter through the post.
Many junctions with or without lights could be roundabouts without lights.
Tadaaa. Plenty of room in many locations, slow traffic well down before it opposes other traffic flows, which is good for accident severity too.
Ok space is an issue, so you make it or build higher capacity by-pass roads round places where existing lighted junctions are over-run.
Could give tons of examples of towns with one or two lighted cross-roads that are rammed to the hilt and 95% of the traffic would be gone with a simple by-pass and roundabouts at each end!
In my view if the road infrastructure is made properly you don't need lights except in exceptional circumstances.
Dave
I have to say that in some ways, I really do agree with SS and their view that road safety really does come down to the responsibility of the drivers on the road.
Quite clearly, if all drivers were polite, curteous and adhered to sensible and appropriate speeds for the conditions, then things would be ace.
Unfortunately, I haven't seen much on just how they would encourage people to be "nice" whilst driving.
Would SS care to make some positive suggestions on how this would be done. Please bear in mind that if you're talking about "driver education", that you're probably looking at doing it for well over 10 million drivers, some of whom might be a little negative about the idea. In addition, just who would pay for the ideas?
Quite clearly, if all drivers were polite, curteous and adhered to sensible and appropriate speeds for the conditions, then things would be ace.
Unfortunately, I haven't seen much on just how they would encourage people to be "nice" whilst driving.
Would SS care to make some positive suggestions on how this would be done. Please bear in mind that if you're talking about "driver education", that you're probably looking at doing it for well over 10 million drivers, some of whom might be a little negative about the idea. In addition, just who would pay for the ideas?
This is getting bad, not only are the governemnt all out to ban everything so are the motoring campaigners who are meant to be reasonable and on our side! Why can't we retain things where useful (e.g. lights on some junctions during peak periods) and junk them/turn them off when not useful.
Same goes for speed cameras, outside a school they are no bad thing, why ban ban ban?
Same goes for speed cameras, outside a school they are no bad thing, why ban ban ban?
Not enough capacity, too many cars at peak times.
Spread out peak time and you increase capacity
Flexi-time by 3hrs each way at the start and end of the day and suddenly most traffic lights could go. But for now at rush hour I think lights are the only way to stop the multitude of people all rushing to not get to work late, who will not act sensibly and courteously while doing so!
Dave
Spread out peak time and you increase capacity
Flexi-time by 3hrs each way at the start and end of the day and suddenly most traffic lights could go. But for now at rush hour I think lights are the only way to stop the multitude of people all rushing to not get to work late, who will not act sensibly and courteously while doing so!
Dave
Our "Elected representatives" spend Billions of our money on trafficcalming schemes, lights, painted lines all over the roads & then they start talking about getting rid of them, that should cost a few billion more, still it creates work for all the eastern Europeans flooding in I suppose.
Wheres the door I WANT TO LEAVE THIS COUNTRY
Wheres the door I WANT TO LEAVE THIS COUNTRY
My daily journey to work through Richmond, Surrey, involves one particular junction with traffic lights. Every morning there are long delays. There have been a few occaisions when the lights have failed. Suprisingly!! this resulted in no delays, & no accidents, just freely flowing traffic.
I'd agree with the campaign to scrap most sets of traffic lights, except for those on dangerous sections of road, or near hospitals & schools.
I'd agree with the campaign to scrap most sets of traffic lights, except for those on dangerous sections of road, or near hospitals & schools.
Certainly common sense needs to applied rather than this total ban approach.
I travel along the A14 every morning and evening towards Huntingdon and I have to cross over the A1 roundabout. Until they put the lights in recently, most evenings and especially Fridays, traffic heading east on that stretch would sometimes tailback by a mile or more. Thanks to the lights this seems to have been mostly eliminated.
So please,please,please, review each case on its own merits and not just implement a blanket ban.
One thing we need to remember is that Politicians most certainly do not know more than us, they just happen to have gotten themselves elected into a position where they think they do?
I travel along the A14 every morning and evening towards Huntingdon and I have to cross over the A1 roundabout. Until they put the lights in recently, most evenings and especially Fridays, traffic heading east on that stretch would sometimes tailback by a mile or more. Thanks to the lights this seems to have been mostly eliminated.
So please,please,please, review each case on its own merits and not just implement a blanket ban.
One thing we need to remember is that Politicians most certainly do not know more than us, they just happen to have gotten themselves elected into a position where they think they do?
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