NIP served on a company vehicle...
Discussion
Quick question - what happens if a NIP gets served on a limited company vehicle, and the company simply doesn't reply to any correspondence?
Can the director(s) receive any points on their license (for either S172 or the speeding), or will the limited company simply end up receiving a big fine and no points for anyone?
Can the director(s) receive any points on their license (for either S172 or the speeding), or will the limited company simply end up receiving a big fine and no points for anyone?
As far as I'm aware, the company secretary will be liable for the points/ fine, unless the company can prove it's kept diligent records of who's driving their vehicles at specified times.
If it's not possible to say (for example, a gang of four men travelling at the same time in the same van, each able to drive the vehicle legally and not admitting who was driving) the company would most likely receive a (largeish) fine but not the points.
If it's not possible to say (for example, a gang of four men travelling at the same time in the same van, each able to drive the vehicle legally and not admitting who was driving) the company would most likely receive a (largeish) fine but not the points.
guam said:
Has anyone considered challenging this Law in Europe, as a it is a criminal offence and the authorities acknowledge that the company secretary is not the driver, then would prosecution for an offence known to have been committed by another person, be a fundamental breach of the Director/Co Secretaries human rights??
They wouldn't be prosecuted for the original offence. It would be for failure to provide information or somesuch.
Section 21 RTA 91 amends S 172 RTA 88(name and shame )and adds:
Where a body corporate is guilty of an offence under this section and the offence is proved to have been committed with the consent or connivance of, or to be attributable to neglect on the part of, a director, manager, secretary or other similar officer of the body corporate, or a person who was purporting to act in any such capacity, he, as well as the body corporate, is guilty of that offence and liable to be proceeded against and punished accordingly.
As far as I am aware points cannot be awarded to a BC neither can it be disqualified but it can be fined but not imprisoned. Com[pany Sec if named is a different matter IIRC.
dvd
Where a body corporate is guilty of an offence under this section and the offence is proved to have been committed with the consent or connivance of, or to be attributable to neglect on the part of, a director, manager, secretary or other similar officer of the body corporate, or a person who was purporting to act in any such capacity, he, as well as the body corporate, is guilty of that offence and liable to be proceeded against and punished accordingly.
As far as I am aware points cannot be awarded to a BC neither can it be disqualified but it can be fined but not imprisoned. Com[pany Sec if named is a different matter IIRC.
dvd
atom120 said:
Quick question - what happens if a NIP gets served on a limited company vehicle, and the company simply doesn't reply to any correspondence?
Can the director(s) receive any points on their license (for either S172 or the speeding), or will the limited company simply end up receiving a big fine and no points for anyone?
Can the director(s) receive any points on their license (for either S172 or the speeding), or will the limited company simply end up receiving a big fine and no points for anyone?
Dude this exact thing has happened to me and it is a myth that the Co. Sec gets it - The Ltd company just gets a fine - end of.
One other question - and I'd like to know where we all stand on this.
What happens if you NEVER reply to anything? So you get NIP, S172, etc, etc and you simply ignore it all - what happens then? I mean all of this stuff just gets sent out as normal mail - so who says we get any of it?
What happens if you NEVER reply to anything? So you get NIP, S172, etc, etc and you simply ignore it all - what happens then? I mean all of this stuff just gets sent out as normal mail - so who says we get any of it?
If you can remember, when the Hants Constabulary was in court for this offence, the Chief Constable was held to be responsible and his force was fined, I think, £500. However, no points were awarded.
Awarding points against company officers would almost certainly be ruled unacceptable under human rights legislation as it could have an effect on that person's ability to continue in their job.
I have heard of several companies receiving a fine due to not knowing who was driving company vehicles at a specific time, but never heard of points being applied to a director or the co. sec'y. If you think about it, it would be totally unfair in view of the fact that there is no legal obligation to keep a driver log except in the case of HGV's. If, for example, two project engineers go to visit a site at the other end of the country, how is the co. sec'y., the Transport Manager of any director supposed to know who was driving at any one time. There could be several such cases every year.
This 'confess, incriminate someone who will confess, or be prosecuted' has to be a really spiteful piece of legislation and unacceptable to anyone who values democracy and fairness. Then they wonder why people 'name' others who may or may not have been driving.
Awarding points against company officers would almost certainly be ruled unacceptable under human rights legislation as it could have an effect on that person's ability to continue in their job.
I have heard of several companies receiving a fine due to not knowing who was driving company vehicles at a specific time, but never heard of points being applied to a director or the co. sec'y. If you think about it, it would be totally unfair in view of the fact that there is no legal obligation to keep a driver log except in the case of HGV's. If, for example, two project engineers go to visit a site at the other end of the country, how is the co. sec'y., the Transport Manager of any director supposed to know who was driving at any one time. There could be several such cases every year.
This 'confess, incriminate someone who will confess, or be prosecuted' has to be a really spiteful piece of legislation and unacceptable to anyone who values democracy and fairness. Then they wonder why people 'name' others who may or may not have been driving.
p490kvp said:
atom120 said:
Quick question - what happens if a NIP gets served on a limited company vehicle, and the company simply doesn't reply to any correspondence?
Can the director(s) receive any points on their license (for either S172 or the speeding), or will the limited company simply end up receiving a big fine and no points for anyone?
Can the director(s) receive any points on their license (for either S172 or the speeding), or will the limited company simply end up receiving a big fine and no points for anyone?
Dude this exact thing has happened to me and it is a myth that the Co. Sec gets it - The Ltd company just gets a fine - end of.
Correct - my experience as well. After this we changed CoSec to a legal entity not an individual
Only a confirmed driver found guilty of an offence can receive points, as to assume guilt without legal argument or admission is not acceptable court proceedure. Therefore: unless they have a collar, you cant just slam some named sucker just because he is a company secretary, and how could that make sense if it was known he wasnt the driver?. Thats like saying Ill blame Michael Schumacher for WW2 because he is German.
Hey the way our legal system is working right now that wouldn't matter..
The fact that senior police figures have been destroying documents and refusing to give evidence in the enquiry relating to UFV loyalist terroists kind of puts S172 into perspective - and why more and more people across the land now have such disrespect for the police
The fact that senior police figures have been destroying documents and refusing to give evidence in the enquiry relating to UFV loyalist terroists kind of puts S172 into perspective - and why more and more people across the land now have such disrespect for the police
Here's an idea:
Why not put a notice on Tony B'liar requiring him to name those responsible for the 'Cash-for-Honours' scandal or face prosecution for not naming them. After all he knowns, or can reasonably be expected to be able to find out, who the culprits are. If he fails, then proscute him and punish him to an equal penalty as if he were guilty, whether he is or not.
Why not put a notice on Tony B'liar requiring him to name those responsible for the 'Cash-for-Honours' scandal or face prosecution for not naming them. After all he knowns, or can reasonably be expected to be able to find out, who the culprits are. If he fails, then proscute him and punish him to an equal penalty as if he were guilty, whether he is or not.
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