Advise Required
Discussion
Torque figures for bikes are low (compared to car engines) but they do have a primary reduction ratio (1.57 ish for my Bird) which just multiplies it right back up again! Using the Haynes manual, this gives 134 Lb Ft at the front of the gearbox. Also the lower weight more than makes up for it, making bike engined cars much quicker than an equivalent power car engined 7 type car. My MK Indy weighs less than 500 kgs. To get a car engine this light is doable, but expensive. Mine may well be for sale once the engine's fixed (it developed a rattle last week), and would be a mere £6,800 or so. It's very fast, quicker than many of the other bike engined cars due to the larger engine. Once you get rolling the difference is not huge, but driving in towns/traffic etc is easier due to the higher torque.
Do not believe anyone who says that Bike engined cars are slow because they have no torque, tricky clutches, ect. ect. ect. One guy said to me that his Lupo had more torque so it would quicker off the line. Donut. BEC's are fast as hell in any gear at any speed in comparison to normal cars. Get a ride in one. Yes torque is low but so is the weight. So the car is merely swift until 3,000, merely fast until 7,000, then awesome until 11,000. You can still pootle around at low revs fine like a normal car, no problem at all. Many people who are against them have never been in one and read reports from other likeminded people. On track or caning it you will never dip out of the powerband anyway so it is irrelevant. If you need fast instantly then just bang the gearstick down twice and hang on! I worked out once that me sitting in my Fireblade Fury was 500kgs exactly. Thats exactly double the weight of me sitting on the donor Fireblade bike at 250kgs. Do you think a Fireblade bike with half the torque would bog down or be "slow"? No chance. There is more to it than Bike versus Car power, the speeds can be similar but it is a WHOLE different experience in two otherwise identical chassis. Some people do not get it, but for others theres no going back. My old car from memory had only about 79lb/ft of torque but with apassenger it would still beat a new M3 in a drag race. And as for the corners......
More of what ^^^ said. They may not be loads faster, but by christ they feel it! Changing up at 11,000 rpm is not an experience to be missed! Some don't get it, but I love it! Makes lazy driving hard, not because you can't but because the tiniest wiff of loud pedal and you're off! Massive grin factor to be had.
kirsty5150 said:
More of what ^^^ said. They may not be loads faster, but by christ they feel it! Changing up at 11,000 rpm is not an experience to be missed! Some don't get it, but I love it! Makes lazy driving hard, not because you can't but because the tiniest wiff of loud pedal and you're off! Massive grin factor to be had.
Can only second all the above.Get a ride in a bec, and prepare to be truly stunned.
Like late braking ? You'll love 430kg then........
Oh, and I change up at 12300k RPM.Limiter hits at 12500.
1137 cc of japanese craziness! Blackbird, by the way. Although you quite probably have a lighter car.Although Im a BEC owner (R1 Locost) I would say that you need to try both car and bike engine to decide what suits you best. If you're mostly going to use it on the road and especially if you plan on doing long Sunday drives I would personally err towards a nice powerful car engine like a 2L Vauxhall with 160-200bhp. BECs can still happily cope with road driving, but the very low gearing can be a chore on longer journeys, buzzing along at 7-8k rpm on the motorway / dual carriageway does get to you after a while, so it really depends on how tolerent you are of that kind of thing, and whether you want something you can cruise around with the missus alongside you all day or not.
On track or on the right road though a BEC is awesome, everything just slots into place, lightning (usually clutchless) gearchanges, extremely revvy engine, light weight etc etc, so if you have trackdays in mind then I would certainly say the BEC will give you the maximum performance/enjoyment for your money.
BTW the torque issue is a myth, whats been said above is true but the fundamental thing is that its torque at the wheels (not engine) that's the important bit. Low gearing gives higher torque at the wheels, meaning that high revving but low engine torque + low gearing (BEC) is able to compete with low revving but high engine torque + high gearing (CEC), and thats ignoring the 70-100kg weight saving that a BEC will give you over a decent car engine/gearbox.
Chris
On track or on the right road though a BEC is awesome, everything just slots into place, lightning (usually clutchless) gearchanges, extremely revvy engine, light weight etc etc, so if you have trackdays in mind then I would certainly say the BEC will give you the maximum performance/enjoyment for your money.
BTW the torque issue is a myth, whats been said above is true but the fundamental thing is that its torque at the wheels (not engine) that's the important bit. Low gearing gives higher torque at the wheels, meaning that high revving but low engine torque + low gearing (BEC) is able to compete with low revving but high engine torque + high gearing (CEC), and thats ignoring the 70-100kg weight saving that a BEC will give you over a decent car engine/gearbox.
Chris
Edited by Locoblade on Monday 5th February 13:41
I drove my Fireblade car to Luxenburg, Austria, Switzerland, Germany......and loved every minute of it! Sitting on the motorway, no windscreen, crash helmet on, 7000rpm cruising......no problem. Yes the revs sounded high but to be honest the whole car was so mental that the high RPM was irrelevant, it just sounded "right" if you know what i mean, and i NEVER tired of it. Might be manic, but the engines are so smooth it's not like a car engine at 7,000. I certainly would have to have a serious car engined alternative to choose one over a Bike engine, and I mean by that one that can still provide nearly 45mpg on a cruise like a blade can. And cost £700 to replace if you blow it up (which is nigh on impossible). And a £100 clutch which can be changed in 30 mins. I could go on, but for me, save maybe a hot, high-revving Toyota / Yamaha 4-age car engine I would take a BEC every time in a car under 500kgs.
cossiemetro said:
i've heard
Here's mine, with a passenger round Llandow whilst it still had the blade in
Linky
...and another round Anglesey with the R1 engine
Linky
A passenger does make a difference, but no more than an equivalently quick car engine'd car. As I said above, its torque AT THE WHEELS that's relevent.
Lee - I agree it can be done and I know exactly what you mean about the "sounding right", they are very smooth at high revs, but I still wouldn't want to do what you did in a BEC Seven. Having followed Jim G to Le Mans a few years ago in his R1 Phoenix, it was evident that the Fury / Phoenix does give you a lot of additional protection from the elements / wind which would obviously make it more bearable overall, but even so I'd wager a bet that your car with a 2L Vx installed would still be nicer to drive on a long journey than with a bike engine.
cheers
Chris
Edited by Locoblade on Monday 5th February 20:53
Hi Ross
I think only you can decide to be honest, IMHO a BEC is a bit more of a pain in traffic due to having no flywheel, a light and fairly grabby clutch, and the sequential box, but it can be done. If that is your primary use of the car though, I think I'd personally go with a car engine.
Chris
I think only you can decide to be honest, IMHO a BEC is a bit more of a pain in traffic due to having no flywheel, a light and fairly grabby clutch, and the sequential box, but it can be done. If that is your primary use of the car though, I think I'd personally go with a car engine.
Chris
Don't listen to Jimmy G moaning. He must be going soft on us!
I find it no different to riding a motorbike, albeit you can sit down and relax. The vauxhall would be good, but a pair of 45 Webbers would be very thirsty!
They do make a difference with a passenger as described, one in a BEC is like 2 or 3 in a regular car. But its still FAST! As I said, I could still outdrag a 2003 M3 with a mate on board, that could not be described as slow in anyones book.
I find it no different to riding a motorbike, albeit you can sit down and relax. The vauxhall would be good, but a pair of 45 Webbers would be very thirsty!
They do make a difference with a passenger as described, one in a BEC is like 2 or 3 in a regular car. But its still FAST! As I said, I could still outdrag a 2003 M3 with a mate on board, that could not be described as slow in anyones book.
Ross... if its a daily driver you're after then i would go for a CEC. I have owned both CEC (Dax rush cosworth & sylva phoenix cosworth) and BEC (westfield megabird), and i used my Dax as a daily driver for 2 years...
Believe me there is enough downsides to having a 7 as a daily driver without having the BEC screaming at you all the time. Thats not to say that i didn't enjoy driving a 7 every day... most of the time i loved it... its just that the BEC would have been extremely wearing on a longish journey (as opposed to a bit wearing for the CEC).
All i'm trying to say is that the CEC is a better compromise for a daily driver, i now have BEC for fun / track and a diesel runabout to stay dry going to work and for towing the BEC around the country.
Believe me there is enough downsides to having a 7 as a daily driver without having the BEC screaming at you all the time. Thats not to say that i didn't enjoy driving a 7 every day... most of the time i loved it... its just that the BEC would have been extremely wearing on a longish journey (as opposed to a bit wearing for the CEC).
All i'm trying to say is that the CEC is a better compromise for a daily driver, i now have BEC for fun / track and a diesel runabout to stay dry going to work and for towing the BEC around the country.
Bike engined kits certainly have their merits but they can be a little tricky around town and in traffic but the main drawback is the sound ,some people like it but I think it`s 5h1t .Buy the biggest V8 you can find and feel the pit of your stomach shake not the fillings in your teeth rattle !
Thanks for all of the opnions. With regards to autotesting which will be better the bec or cec. What about running costs and fuel cosumption of both the bec and cec. The journey to work is only a mile away so therefore i could probably but up with the sound and dont do many long journey's. (there all b roads 
)
Regards
Ross
) Regards
Ross
Ive bought and sold a fair few westfields in the last 3 years, Blades on the twistys will out preform with most cec"s but will struggle on a long circuit against a 200bhp cec..
If road is the way you are going for £10k you will get a vx engined westy that will blow a blade away..(wont feel as quick but will be ) If you are going to be more track focused the bec would be my advice.. Ive had my Busa now for 2 years and I spend a fair bit of time maintaining it , preventing problems rather than fixing them.. Ive only lost one track day in 2 years due to a bust oil seal and Ive done well over 4000 track miles..
Unless Im driving my car hard fing it hard work on the road , I could make it more road friendly but would take away what I bought it for, I find driving with earplugs makes it much better !!!
a few of my busa in action videos http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?d
If road is the way you are going for £10k you will get a vx engined westy that will blow a blade away..(wont feel as quick but will be ) If you are going to be more track focused the bec would be my advice.. Ive had my Busa now for 2 years and I spend a fair bit of time maintaining it , preventing problems rather than fixing them.. Ive only lost one track day in 2 years due to a bust oil seal and Ive done well over 4000 track miles..
Unless Im driving my car hard fing it hard work on the road , I could make it more road friendly but would take away what I bought it for, I find driving with earplugs makes it much better !!!
a few of my busa in action videos http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?d
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