Discussion
andywaterfall said:
I was stopped yesterday afternoon by a local bobby in an unmarked Focus for going through an amber light, and given & producer & an NIP.
Quick straw poll:
I was doing 40 last week (IN a 40 limit) and had a moped with 'L' plates behind so close his wheel must have been an INCH off my bumper - never mind not seeing his lights, I could have counted the bugs on his visor! Coming up to lights I saw them go amber but realised if I braked to stop this guy was going over my car head first no doubt at all. I knew the cross-traffic was sat a long way back on that junction so I ran the red (it hit red about a carlength before I got to the line). Admittedly, no cops in sight.
What would you have done?
Story part 2: The idiot FOLLOWED ME THROUGH!!!!!
Elsarius said:
andywaterfall said:
I was stopped yesterday afternoon by a local bobby in an unmarked Focus for going through an amber light, and given & producer & an NIP.
Quick straw poll:
I was doing 40 last week (IN a 40 limit) and had a moped with 'L' plates behind so close his wheel must have been an INCH off my bumper - never mind not seeing his lights, I could have counted the bugs on his visor! Coming up to lights I saw them go amber but realised if I braked to stop this guy was going over my car head first no doubt at all. I knew the cross-traffic was sat a long way back on that junction so I ran the red (it hit red about a carlength before I got to the line). Admittedly, no cops in sight.
What would you have done?
Story part 2: The idiot FOLLOWED ME THROUGH!!!!!
You deliberately ran a red light and HE's an idiot?
razerwire said:
peaktorque said:
Whats worse, being rear ended by a 'ped, or being smashed in the side by another car?
Indeed. I would have anchored up a bit harder than usual and watched the mopedder become the new rocket man.
I'd had had him in through the back window as well - there's no way I would jump red just because some pillock is too close thats his problem not mine
Just to make it a bit clearer, the vis was good and, as I said, the cross-traffic was well set back (and those lights are slow changers), so unless someone had 300 brake and some rubber to burn (and neither of the vehicles at the lights yelled "speed freak" at me), there was no risk. The only risk in the situation was a legal one if there happened to be a cop in the vacinity.
Elsarius said:
Just to make it a bit clearer, the vis was good and, as I said, the cross-traffic was well set back (and those lights are slow changers), so unless someone had 300 brake and some rubber to burn (and neither of the vehicles at the lights yelled "speed freak" at me), there was no risk. The only risk in the situation was a legal one if there happened to be a cop in the vacinity.
doesn't make it right though does it?
motorwise said:
Elsarius said:
Just to make it a bit clearer, the vis was good and, as I said, the cross-traffic was well set back (and those lights are slow changers), so unless someone had 300 brake and some rubber to burn (and neither of the vehicles at the lights yelled "speed freak" at me), there was no risk. The only risk in the situation was a legal one if there happened to be a cop in the vacinity.
doesn't make it right though does it?
Nope, it certainly does not. I suspect I would still do it again though, and give the poor sod one more chance at life. Though since he'll probably get himself killed by the very next car he tails, it was probably a pointless gesture.
motorwise said:
Elsarius said:
Just to make it a bit clearer, the vis was good and, as I said, the cross-traffic was well set back (and those lights are slow changers), so unless someone had 300 brake and some rubber to burn (and neither of the vehicles at the lights yelled "speed freak" at me), there was no risk. The only risk in the situation was a legal one if there happened to be a cop in the vacinity.
doesn't make it right though does it?
That's not a fair comment.
An imbecile put Elsarius in an unsustainable position. He was damned if he stopped and damned if he didn't. He had no "right" choice in the perfect-world sense that your post implies.
Elsarius said:
motorwise said:
Elsarius said:
Just to make it a bit clearer, the vis was good and, as I said, the cross-traffic was well set back (and those lights are slow changers), so unless someone had 300 brake and some rubber to burn (and neither of the vehicles at the lights yelled "speed freak" at me), there was no risk. The only risk in the situation was a legal one if there happened to be a cop in the vacinity.
doesn't make it right though does it?
Nope, it certainly does not. I suspect I would still do it again though, and give the poor sod one more chance at life. Though since he'll probably get himself killed by the very next car he tails, it was probably a pointless gesture.
don't get me wrong I can see you did it for the right reasons - and then the pillock followed you - can't win
Elsarius said:
andywaterfall said:
I was stopped yesterday afternoon by a local bobby in an unmarked Focus for going through an amber light, and given & producer & an NIP.
Quick straw poll:
I was doing 40 last week (IN a 40 limit) and had a moped with 'L' plates behind so close his wheel must have been an INCH off my bumper - never mind not seeing his lights, I could have counted the bugs on his visor! Coming up to lights I saw them go amber but realised if I braked to stop this guy was going over my car head first no doubt at all. I knew the cross-traffic was sat a long way back on that junction so I ran the red (it hit red about a carlength before I got to the line). Admittedly, no cops in sight.
What would you have done?
Story part 2: The idiot FOLLOWED ME THROUGH!!!!!
Having seen that I had someone really close & I was apoproaching green ATS I would have eased of the throttle a long way from the lights anticipating that they would turn red. I'd have been planning & ready to stop with a gentle application of the brakes as soon as they did.
flemke said:
That's not a fair comment.
An imbecile put Elsarius in an unsustainable position. He was damned if he stopped and damned if he didn't. He had no "right" choice in the perfect-world sense that your post implies.
I don't believe it is an unsustainable position if you are looking far enough ahead & planning for a green light to change from the moment you see it, whilst accomodating others within your plan to stop safely.
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 3rd February 22:36
flemke said:
An imbecile put Elsarius in an unsustainable position. He was damned if he stopped and damned if he didn't. He had no "right" choice in the perfect-world sense that your post implies.
That's not so.
The basic idea is that when you get a tailgaiter you SLOW DOWN. Then when the lights go red you can stop and the guy behind does too. Oooh, consider this, maybe there was a 300 bhp racer at the lights? Where would Elsarius be? Dead. Or maybe a child stumbling into the road...dead kid.
No if, buts or maybes, as a good driver, Elsarius failed the test. Back to zero, start again. Sorry.
Graham
vonhosen said:
I don't believe it is an unsustainable position if you are looking far enough ahead & planning for a green light to change from the moment you see it, whilst accomodating others within your plan to stop safely.
I've done the odd Advanced course and so on here and there, so I do know the theory and do use all the planning and anticipation stuff - but do you genuinely find (be honest!) that you can maintain an optimum level of awareness / planning etc. every single moment of the 12000+ miles you probably drive in a year? I reckon I do pretty well but I could never claim to be perfect, and my awareness level definitely varies with energy levels, stress, other preoccupations etc. -- in other words, life!
gidgway said:
Oooh, consider this, maybe there was a 300 bhp racer at the lights?
I couldn't tell you exactly what was at the lights, but I know enough of my awareness level to say I would have noticed anything vaguely exotic (more, it has to be said, because of my love of cars than because of any particular plan to be aware of fast cars as an anticipated hazard).
Edited by Elsarius on Saturday 3rd February 23:02
Edited by Elsarius on Saturday 3rd February 23:04
Elsarius said:
vonhosen said:
I don't believe it is an unsustainable position if you are looking far enough ahead & planning for a green light to change from the moment you see it, whilst accomodating others within your plan to stop safely.
I've done the odd Advanced course and so on here and there, so I do know the theory and do use all the planning and anticipation stuff - but do you genuinely find (be honest!) that you can maintain an optimum level of awareness / planning etc. every single moment of the 12000+ miles you probably drive in a year? I reckon I do pretty well but I could never claim to be perfect, and my awareness level definitely varies with energy levels, stress, other preoccupations etc. -- in other words, life!
I don't claim to be perfect, I only try to be.
I've had a lot of practice at the Observation, Anticipation & Planning stuff you refer to.
It is firmly ingrained into my driving at an unconsciously competent level.
I do know that I drive in a part of the country where I can frequently be presented with a situation such as you describe. As a result I do practice what I preach & don't have to run red lights because of vehicles behind me. Instead I can stop safely, allowing time for the following vehicle to do so too. Building time into the drive of the less skilled around you is as important as building time into your own drive.
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 3rd February 23:07
vonhosen said:
Elsarius said:
vonhosen said:
I don't believe it is an unsustainable position if you are looking far enough ahead & planning for a green light to change from the moment you see it, whilst accomodating others within your plan to stop safely.
I've done the odd Advanced course and so on here and there, so I do know the theory and do use all the planning and anticipation stuff - but do you genuinely find (be honest!) that you can maintain an optimum level of awareness / planning etc. every single moment of the 12000+ miles you probably drive in a year? I reckon I do pretty well but I could never claim to be perfect, and my awareness level definitely varies with energy levels, stress, other preoccupations etc. -- in other words, life!
I don't claim to be perfect, I only try to be.
I do know that I drive in a part of the country where I can frequently be presented with a situation such as you describe. I do what I describe & don't have to run red lights as a result, but instead can stop safely, allowing time for the following vehicle to do so too.
Now you make it sound like I manage to end up in that situation every day!
Elsarius said:
vonhosen said:
Elsarius said:
vonhosen said:
I don't believe it is an unsustainable position if you are looking far enough ahead & planning for a green light to change from the moment you see it, whilst accomodating others within your plan to stop safely.
I've done the odd Advanced course and so on here and there, so I do know the theory and do use all the planning and anticipation stuff - but do you genuinely find (be honest!) that you can maintain an optimum level of awareness / planning etc. every single moment of the 12000+ miles you probably drive in a year? I reckon I do pretty well but I could never claim to be perfect, and my awareness level definitely varies with energy levels, stress, other preoccupations etc. -- in other words, life!
I don't claim to be perfect, I only try to be.
I do know that I drive in a part of the country where I can frequently be presented with a situation such as you describe. I do what I describe & don't have to run red lights as a result, but instead can stop safely, allowing time for the following vehicle to do so too.
Now you make it sound like I manage to end up in that situation every day!
That's not my intention.
Try not to ever get into it is what I am saying, because it is in my experience avoidable.
Moving quickly on from my perceived driving skills and returning to the intended conundrum ...
Assuming that you HAVE ended up in the situation outlined, and just to make it more interesting, reiterate the lack of physical danger to you/others but add a traffic camera and say you have 9 points on your licence (FYI, I don't) ...
Do you
a) run the red and lose your licence?
b) hit the breaks and allow the moped rider a temporary victory over gravity?
Assuming that you HAVE ended up in the situation outlined, and just to make it more interesting, reiterate the lack of physical danger to you/others but add a traffic camera and say you have 9 points on your licence (FYI, I don't) ...
Do you
a) run the red and lose your licence?
b) hit the breaks and allow the moped rider a temporary victory over gravity?
Clearly your theory that the situation could not arise is flawed, since I managed to be awkward and drive just sufficiently well as to become aware of the moped, without planning well enough ahead to slow before the lights. Whilst I will admit that this is the first and only time this has ever happened to me, it is, nonetheless, a precedent. You can at best regard the event as rare, and so the conundrum is a reasonable one.
The question is, can you genuinely not see it arising, or are you merely afraid that proper consideration of the question would reveal an inconsistency in your internal ethical model that you are reluctant to examine, regarding how you think you would act and how you think you should act in this situation?
The question is, can you genuinely not see it arising, or are you merely afraid that proper consideration of the question would reveal an inconsistency in your internal ethical model that you are reluctant to examine, regarding how you think you would act and how you think you should act in this situation?
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