Vista to XP?

[egomeister]

I'm looking at getting a laptop soon, and have found one which seems to fit the bill nicely - expect it runs Vista.

I've no need for it (and also I think it would be incompatible with some of the programs I use) - does anyone know how hard it would be to switch to XP? Has any Vista specific hardware been released that would mean a step backward would not be possible? And if all would be ok in this respect, anyone know of any cheap copies of XP Pro?

[ThePassenger]

Well, whilst it make break the strictest terms of the license, if you have a laptop that is being scrapped which runs XP Pro... take it's CD and install it on the new laptop. You'll need to basically format the drive and start from scratch. Ok, you're transfering a license microsoft really don't want you to but... screw em... one copy of XP on one machine... it's the spirit if not the letter Of course the only thing to watch out for it OEM CD's are often keyed to specific BIOS's, if it can't sense it, it'll ask you to Activate and pretend to be a shop brought copy. No biggie, feed it the key on the underside of the scrapper and off it should trot.

Other than that, you could buy a cheap mouse and a copy of XP Pro OEM from Novatech for £90ish.

[egomeister]

Cheers, sounds like there should be no fundamental issues stopping me!

Unfortunatley I don't have a machine to take the license from but I know a man who might.... otherwise an extra £90 makes the laptop look far less of a bargain!

It's a shame it seems to be such a struggle to find a decent computer at a decent price shipping with XP. Not everyone wants to rush onto the latest and greatest....

[Globulator]

ThePassenger said:

Well, whilst it make break the strictest terms of the license, if you have a laptop that is being scrapped which runs XP Pro... take it's CD and install it on the new laptop. You'll need to basically format the drive and start from scratch. Ok, you're transfering a license microsoft really don't want you to but... screw em... one copy of XP on one machine... it's the spirit if not the letter Of course the only thing to watch out for it OEM CD's are often keyed to specific BIOS's, if it can't sense it, it'll ask you to Activate and pretend to be a shop brought copy. No biggie, feed it the key on the underside of the scrapper and off it should trot.

Other than that, you could buy a cheap mouse and a copy of XP Pro OEM from Novatech for £90ish.

Strictest terms? Either you break the license or you don't!! Transferring copies of Windows around is taken seriously by Microsoft. The interesting story of what happened when they went after Ernie Ball (the famous guitar string maker) for doing just that (transferring - not copying) makes interesting reading:

http://news.com.com/2008-1082_3-50658

The 'spirit' of the Microsoft license is plainly written in black and white - Microsoft lawyers are some of the sharpest on the planet and write what they mean. You may be able to buy a corporate license that would allow you to do what you want to, but please don't think that Microsoft 'really doesn't mind' you breaking their licenses!!

Still, the XP license is a lot less weapons grade than the new Vista one:

www.theregister.com/2006/10/29/microsoft_vista_eula_analysis/page2.html
(scroll down)

which will kill all of your reinstallation hopes dead. This is the spirit of the XP license, executed with rather more force in Vista.

To be honest, I do not condone breaking licenses and I see this as Microsofts way of telling me to run Linux and buy Apple computers, a suggestion that has proven more useful and revealing than I could have possibly imagined

[jamieboy]

Globulator said:

Still, the XP license is a lot less weapons grade than the new Vista one:

www.theregister.com/2006/10/29/microsoft_vista_eula_analysis/page2.html
(scroll down)

which will kill all of your reinstallation hopes dead. This is the spirit of the XP license, executed with rather more force in Vista.

That story is out of date, I'm afraid, although you're by no means the only person to still be quoting it.

The current (i.e. the one that comes with the release version of the software, not the beta version) does not include the 'one time' restriction, but states that "You may uninstall the software and install it on another device for your use. You may not do so to share this license between devices".

The 'one time' restriction still applies to the 'Anytime Upgrades', but I think that's reasonable - if you want to upgrade seven copies of Vista Business edition to Vista Ultimate, then you need seven upgrades. Seems fair enough.

[CombeMarshal]

Why not just get a lap top with XP on then!!
There are millions still about

[CommanderJameson]

In a similar vein, I'm hearing rumours that (A) Microsoft will cease issuing OEM XP licences sometime in March and (b) that OEM Vista licences have no downgrade capability (An OEM XP Pro licence, for example, allows you to install Windows 2000 Pro).

This will force a lot of people to either Vista or illegal copies of XP, should it be true.

Can anyone in the channel confirm/deny?

[ThePassenger]

Globulator said:

Strictest terms? Either you break the license or you don't!! Transferring copies of Windows around is taken seriously by Microsoft. The interesting story of what happened when they went after Ernie Ball (the famous guitar string maker) for doing just that (transferring - not copying) makes interesting reading:

Yep strictest terms, as in a contract that you must agree to which can be retroactively changed at any time by either the issuing company or selected 3rd party vendors. The contract also states that the software is of no merchantable quality either real or perceived and is used at the end users own risk. Which sounds like it came straight from the GPL but is actually a paraphrase of sections of the Microsoft EULA. It's utterly unenforceable in the UK.

Now if an XP license'd machine is being disposed off I see little to stop you whipping it's install CD's away and transferring the license over.

[jamieboy]

ThePassenger said:

Other than that, you could buy a cheap mouse and a copy of XP Pro OEM from Novatech for £90ish.

You can buy it, but you can't legally use it. Buying an OEM version with a mouse is explicitly covered on this page of Microsoft's website.

If anyone is really interested in licensing then you'd honestly be better checking the MS site, because they likely know the truth about their licensing agreements better than anyone on here.

[ThePassenger]

jamieboy said:

ThePassenger said:

Other than that, you could buy a cheap mouse and a copy of XP Pro OEM from Novatech for £90ish.

You can buy it, but you can't legally use it. Buying an OEM version with a mouse is explicitly covered on this page of Microsoft's website.

If anyone is really interested in licensing then you'd honestly be better checking the MS site, because they likely know the truth about their licensing agreements better than anyone on here.

Actually you can use it. Legally. It has to be a component of the system the OS will be installed on. I believe Vista changes the requirement that it must be an integral part of the system (i.e. memory stick, hard drive, CPU cooler... I guess) and not manufactured by Microsoft, which on a laptop is slightly more difficult.

So to restate for greater accuracy. Buy a USB mouse from Novatech and a copy of XP OEM at the sometime.

I'd not bother contacting Microsoft about it. You'll be amazed at how vertical the requirements become ("Ohh no sir, you must then purchase a license type X for program Y at £££££ as well). Speak to a store. They'll go for the sale to be sure but you won't need a tanker truck of KY to make preceding go smoother.

[jamieboy]

ThePassenger said:

jamieboy said:

ThePassenger said:

Other than that, you could buy a cheap mouse and a copy of XP Pro OEM from Novatech for £90ish.

You can buy it, but you can't legally use it. Buying an OEM version with a mouse is explicitly covered on this page of Microsoft's website.

If anyone is really interested in licensing then you'd honestly be better checking the MS site, because they likely know the truth about their licensing agreements better than anyone on here.

Actually you can use it. Legally. It has to be a component of the system the OS will be installed on. I believe Vista changes the requirement that it must be an integral part of the system (i.e. memory stick, hard drive, CPU cooler... I guess) and not manufactured by Microsoft, which on a laptop is slightly more difficult.

Let's see - Microsoft says you can't, "someone on the Internet" says you can. Who to believe?

[Globulator]

jamieboy said:

Let's see - Microsoft says you can't, "someone on the Internet" says you can. Who to believe?

Now where is that copy of Ubuntu Linux I just legally ran off on my CD writer? Oh yes, busy installing another copy of Linux onto yet another old PC in the corner, next to the other two Linux machines that I copied it onto earlier.

Wot no registration? No threats? No viruses? No crashing? Massive online support? Lovely.

Simple is good




edited 4 grmmr

Edited by Globulator on Sunday 18th February 22:41

[speedchick]

We have a friend who is just in the process of sorting his crashed/burned/died pc out, and he has scratched his XP disk.

On asking the guy in the local pc builder/retailer, he said that all that was needed was to run off a copy of our XP, post the disk to him and as long as he uses his own license key for it there was no problem.

Duly did this and it worked!

[CommanderJameson]

jamieboy said:

ThePassenger said:

jamieboy said:

ThePassenger said:

Other than that, you could buy a cheap mouse and a copy of XP Pro OEM from Novatech for £90ish.

You can buy it, but you can't legally use it. Buying an OEM version with a mouse is explicitly covered on this page of Microsoft's website.

If anyone is really interested in licensing then you'd honestly be better checking the MS site, because they likely know the truth about their licensing agreements better than anyone on here.

Actually you can use it. Legally. It has to be a component of the system the OS will be installed on. I believe Vista changes the requirement that it must be an integral part of the system (i.e. memory stick, hard drive, CPU cooler... I guess) and not manufactured by Microsoft, which on a laptop is slightly more difficult.

Let's see - Microsoft says you can't, "someone on the Internet" says you can. Who to believe?

For the removal of doubt:

Microsoft Corporation UK said:

Q. Can I buy OEM Windows XP software with a mouse?
A. No, OEM desktop software must be pre-installed on a fully assembled PC.

[viperdave]

CommanderJameson said:

jamieboy said:

ThePassenger said:

jamieboy said:

ThePassenger said:

Other than that, you could buy a cheap mouse and a copy of XP Pro OEM from Novatech for £90ish.

You can buy it, but you can't legally use it. Buying an OEM version with a mouse is explicitly covered on this page of Microsoft's website.

If anyone is really interested in licensing then you'd honestly be better checking the MS site, because they likely know the truth about their licensing agreements better than anyone on here.

Actually you can use it. Legally. It has to be a component of the system the OS will be installed on. I believe Vista changes the requirement that it must be an integral part of the system (i.e. memory stick, hard drive, CPU cooler... I guess) and not manufactured by Microsoft, which on a laptop is slightly more difficult.

Let's see - Microsoft says you can't, "someone on the Internet" says you can. Who to believe?

For the removal of doubt:

Microsoft Corporation UK said:

Q. Can I buy OEM Windows XP software with a mouse?
A. No, OEM desktop software must be pre-installed on a fully assembled PC.

I'd like to see someone try and install xp on a mouse...The answer in the FAQ is not the answer to the question but gives the impression you can only do what ms want you to do not what you maybe can do.

[egomeister]

CombeMarshal said:

Why not just get a lap top with XP on then!!
There are millions still about

Because the one I've seen thats head and shoulders better than anything else for the cash has vista!

The story about the guitar string company completely removing Microsoft products posted above was great - nice to see someone making the decision to go against the flow in a commercial environment!

[Globulator]

egomeister said:

The story about the guitar string company completely removing Microsoft products posted above was great - nice to see someone making the decision to go against the flow in a commercial environment!

I can never work out why people use Microsoft in the workplace. Seriously, it is a complete mystery. If you have an IT department, Linux is a no brainer.
I mean look at the options:

Linux. Free. Put it on 1000 machines (30mins per machine) or use netboot. For nothing. And it works - my debian linux server has been up doing lots of stuff for 495 continuous days now, without a single oddity. It's still running as well as the day I switched it on.
- maintenance? Full Source Code Included. An IT departments dream.
OpenOffice. Free. Better at many word files than word. 2.0 rocks.
In fact Sun are selling their StarOffice into a lot of corporate areas, and people who don't need the professional support use Openoffice (as do I).
- maintenance? Full Source Code Included. An IT departments dream.
Firefox. Free web browser. Better than IE.
- maintenance? Full Source Code available. An IT departments dream.
Thunderbird. Free email client. Much better than Outlook.
- maintenance? Full Source Code available. An IT departments dream.

And tens of thousands of free programs with full source code
http://popcon.debian.org/
With full integrated update and security system slicker than a very slick thing, run from the command line or from Synaptic at www.nongnu.org/synaptic/

Plus Linux is scalable, remote administration is simple, and all the types of neat things like remote desktop etc are all just sitting there ready to use. Many top Linux distros (Ubuntu is the most friendly IMO) leverage the Debian code base. Plus you get all the source code, so if something bugs you, you are FREE to change it.

Many MS Windows programs also run, using WINE and some commercial programs, but usually you find better software that is native to Linux. Apple talks to Linux fine out of the box, because Apple want you to buy their hardware (which you can run Linux on if you like!), unlike Microsoft who actively discourage sharing.

So why would anyone run Microsoft today? Mystery. Why would I ever pay to have my choices dictated to me?

[jamieboy]

Globulator said:

I can never work out why people use Microsoft in the workplace. Seriously, it is a complete mystery. If you have an IT department, Linux is a no brainer.

What are the Linux alternatives to GPOs and Active Directory?

In my experience, a lot of organisations use Microsoft products because it gives them a single support point from their file servers through to their desktops through to their handhelds, from their mail servers through to their database servers through to their proxy servers.

[Globulator]

jamieboy said:

Globulator said:

I can never work out why people use Microsoft in the workplace. Seriously, it is a complete mystery. If you have an IT department, Linux is a no brainer.

What are the Linux alternatives to GPOs and Active Directory?

In my experience, a lot of organisations use Microsoft products because it gives them a single support point from their file servers through to their desktops through to their handhelds, from their mail servers through to their database servers through to their proxy servers.

I suppose the ultimate Group Policy (A user environment in terms of available programs etc) is a netboot partition somewhere, or even chroot if you want to go that far.

There are many ways in Linux to present custom environments in the root file system, so groups and individual users can all be carefully contained by the IT department. Installing a linux in the accounts department without a web-browser (or with a custom one - you have the source code!) is fairly easy if that is what you want.

Active directory helps deploy programs, updates and services in Windows, Linux is easy to remotely administer and if each machine has it's own hard disk, IT need but run a few simple scripts to ssh and update as required, for literally thousands of machines. Netboot is my favourite option however (perhaps cached onto a local drive in part) because IT has complete and total control over everyones root disk image.

For Linux your one-stop support center is your IT department. Local, there anyway, and able to response even to the extent of modifying programs for you. Want to restrict the web or email? Get IT to install a patched version for everyone to use. QED.

A good way to ensure seemless corporate IT is to get a lot of applications under Firefox on the web. It makes mixing and matching sooo much easier.

These are my ideas, people who actually do use Linux/Unix in the enterprise will have their ideas too. Bear in mind that Unix was in the enterprise long before Windows even had memory protection

Edited to add: Of course your 'home directory' on linux could be any file system on the network - Windows IIRC is tied to the machine and the delay when you wait for 'loading user settings' and 'saving user settings' simply isn't there in Linux.

Edited by Globulator on Monday 19th February 11:20

[jamieboy]

Globulator said:

I suppose the ultimate Group Policy (A user environment in terms of available programs etc) is a netboot partition somewhere, or even chroot if you want to go that far.

There are many ways in Linux to present custom environments in the root file system, so groups and individual users can all be carefully contained by the IT department. Installing a linux in the accounts department without a web-browser (or with a custom one - you have the source code!) is fairly easy if that is what you want.

Can you explain netboot and chroot to me, in simple terms? In a situation where I have two users, they can both log on to the same machine and be allowed to do different things, based on different GPOs applying to their user account. If these two log on to a different machine, then the things they can/can't do might be different again, if a different GPO applies to that machine. Is that the sort of thing that netboot / chroot can offer?

Globulator said:

For Linux your one-stop support center is your IT department. Local, there anyway, and able to response even to the extent of modifying programs for you. Want to restrict the web or email? Get IT to install a patched version for everyone to use.

So if your Apache webserver stops talking to your MySQL database, but only for a small minority of users who connect via some other open source VPN solution, then you're solely dependent on your IT department to fix it? Hmm...

Globulator said:

Bear in mind that Unix was in the enterprise long before Windows even had memory protection

Indeed. And smallpox was around a long time before there was a vaccine.

In fairness, I've got no problem with Open Source stuff, but I think that people who tout is as being "better" than Microsoft products have perhaps never seen how well MS products work when they've been implemented properly.