How do Honda Get So Much Power from a Small Engine Reliably?
Discussion
Hi there,
My first experience in the world of tuning cars comes from the Fiat / Lancia twin-cam engine. These engines are beloved by tuning nuts and can deliver plenty of torque. People have been tuning them for decades.
With a 2-Litre FTC (Fiat Twin-Cam), you’re going to be lucky to get over 180 BHP without forced induction. Even then, the cars I’ve seen that claimed to have 180 BHP were pretty much race-tuned – not a lot of fun for the road. Tuners tell me that a non-turbo / blown road engine should settle for around 160BHP if you want it to be tractable. Even a humble 160 horses will cost you several grand to obtain and you’re likely to need a rebuild within 30K of driving.
Now bearing in mind that a race-tuned N/A FTC tops out around 180 BHP, how on earth do Honda get 240 tractable and – crucially – reliable horses from a N/A 2 Litre engine?
What is it that Honda can do that the FTC tuners can’t? Also, why is it that the Honda lumps are short on low-down torque and need to be revved highly to extract performance?
If I think back 20 years or so ago, for a road car, your average N/A 3 Litre V6 would put out around 160 - 180 Horses – how do Honda get 240 from 2Litres without it self-destructing? Is it purely down to precision engineering? I appreciate the dual mode operation, i.e. the twin lobes on the cam – do Honda work on the assumption that the car spends most of its life of the low-lift lobe, so it doesn’t get overtly stressed in a high state of tune permanently (whereas a Fiat TC only has one mode, so it’s sitting in traffic on the high-lift cam with the same ignition setting)?
How do they do it? I hope you don’t mind me posting here, an engine designer I am not!
My first experience in the world of tuning cars comes from the Fiat / Lancia twin-cam engine. These engines are beloved by tuning nuts and can deliver plenty of torque. People have been tuning them for decades.
With a 2-Litre FTC (Fiat Twin-Cam), you’re going to be lucky to get over 180 BHP without forced induction. Even then, the cars I’ve seen that claimed to have 180 BHP were pretty much race-tuned – not a lot of fun for the road. Tuners tell me that a non-turbo / blown road engine should settle for around 160BHP if you want it to be tractable. Even a humble 160 horses will cost you several grand to obtain and you’re likely to need a rebuild within 30K of driving.
Now bearing in mind that a race-tuned N/A FTC tops out around 180 BHP, how on earth do Honda get 240 tractable and – crucially – reliable horses from a N/A 2 Litre engine?
What is it that Honda can do that the FTC tuners can’t? Also, why is it that the Honda lumps are short on low-down torque and need to be revved highly to extract performance?
If I think back 20 years or so ago, for a road car, your average N/A 3 Litre V6 would put out around 160 - 180 Horses – how do Honda get 240 from 2Litres without it self-destructing? Is it purely down to precision engineering? I appreciate the dual mode operation, i.e. the twin lobes on the cam – do Honda work on the assumption that the car spends most of its life of the low-lift lobe, so it doesn’t get overtly stressed in a high state of tune permanently (whereas a Fiat TC only has one mode, so it’s sitting in traffic on the high-lift cam with the same ignition setting)?
How do they do it? I hope you don’t mind me posting here, an engine designer I am not!
High rpm's = power
low rpm's = torque
most manufacturers opt for a compromise between the 2.
Honda makes them rev via their V-Tec system, which allows them to make some power, but relatively low torque at the opposite end.
Whereas other manufacturers choose to use a lower rpm range, and make less power, and more torque.
Which is faster ? well, give me the latter option anyway.
The Honda car engines arent that impressive at all. Or do you mean motorbike engines ?
Given motorbikes are pushing 160-180bhp fromm 1000cc petrol engines. DO you really think that a paltry 200bhp from a 2.0 n/a engine is impressive ?
But, motorbikes use big rpm's, and make crap torque. But in a lightweight platform, that isnt an issue.
Throw it into a heavy car, and it would be crap.
And latest news is, Honda are developing a turbocharged engine. Obviously they have realised their n/a route has been a road to nowhere
If you want to go fast, and make decent power and torque. FI is the best way.
low rpm's = torque
most manufacturers opt for a compromise between the 2.
Honda makes them rev via their V-Tec system, which allows them to make some power, but relatively low torque at the opposite end.
Whereas other manufacturers choose to use a lower rpm range, and make less power, and more torque.
Which is faster ? well, give me the latter option anyway.
The Honda car engines arent that impressive at all. Or do you mean motorbike engines ?
Given motorbikes are pushing 160-180bhp fromm 1000cc petrol engines. DO you really think that a paltry 200bhp from a 2.0 n/a engine is impressive ?
But, motorbikes use big rpm's, and make crap torque. But in a lightweight platform, that isnt an issue.
Throw it into a heavy car, and it would be crap.
And latest news is, Honda are developing a turbocharged engine. Obviously they have realised their n/a route has been a road to nowhere
If you want to go fast, and make decent power and torque. FI is the best way.
The Honda car engines arent that impressive at all. Or do you mean motorbike engines ?quote............................
Are you kidding you obviously know nothing about Honda as a motor manafacturer,there engines are little gems,and no they dont need Vtec to be powerful,the early 1.5i 12 valve unit was superb,the civic/crx twin cam was a 130hp rev monster than will do 200k with proper maintainance and will suffer no end of thrashing,Stevie your wrong about this one.I used a Honda accord when i worked for a dealer 2.0i 12 valve(yes the grandad shape circa 1990)and it would leave 2.8i/2.9i capris/sierras for dead and out handled them too,and it never pretended to be a sports coupe,Oh and yes i am protective of this brand,something i can lay claim to after working on them for many many years.
Are you kidding you obviously know nothing about Honda as a motor manafacturer,there engines are little gems,and no they dont need Vtec to be powerful,the early 1.5i 12 valve unit was superb,the civic/crx twin cam was a 130hp rev monster than will do 200k with proper maintainance and will suffer no end of thrashing,Stevie your wrong about this one.I used a Honda accord when i worked for a dealer 2.0i 12 valve(yes the grandad shape circa 1990)and it would leave 2.8i/2.9i capris/sierras for dead and out handled them too,and it never pretended to be a sports coupe,Oh and yes i am protective of this brand,something i can lay claim to after working on them for many many years.
Edited by that daddy on Saturday 17th February 17:11
that daddy said:
The Honda car engines arent that impressive at all. Or do you mean motorbike engines ?quote............................
Are you kidding you obviously know nothing about Honda as a motor manafacturer,there engines are little gems,and no they dont need Vtec to be powerful,the early 1.5i 12 valve unit was superb,the civic/crx twin cam was a 130hp rev monster than will do 200k with proper maintainance and will suffer no end of thrashing,Stevie your wrong about this one.I used a Honda accord when i worked for a dealer 2.0i 12 valve(yes the grandad shape circa 1990)and it would leave 2.8i/2.9i capris/sierras for dead and out handled them too,and it never pretended to be a sports coupe,Oh and yes i am protective of this brand,something i can lay claim to after working on them for many many years.
Are you kidding you obviously know nothing about Honda as a motor manafacturer,there engines are little gems,and no they dont need Vtec to be powerful,the early 1.5i 12 valve unit was superb,the civic/crx twin cam was a 130hp rev monster than will do 200k with proper maintainance and will suffer no end of thrashing,Stevie your wrong about this one.I used a Honda accord when i worked for a dealer 2.0i 12 valve(yes the grandad shape circa 1990)and it would leave 2.8i/2.9i capris/sierras for dead and out handled them too,and it never pretended to be a sports coupe,Oh and yes i am protective of this brand,something i can lay claim to after working on them for many many years.
Edited by that daddy on Saturday 17th February 17:11
No, Im not kidding.
Motorbike engines of all manufacturers have far exceeded power outputs of car engines for many years, and still do so. I see some of them as impressive 160+ from a 1000cc engine ?.
So I dont see Honda producing and engine that makes a bit of power, as that impressive.
They chose a route that will produce good power, but lacklustre torque, which in a road car, I dont think is that hot.
Make that same level of power from a well designed turbocharger or supercharger setup, and it will be a faster car. It will have a far wider spread of torque.
I never once made a comparison to old Ford engines or cars. I know they are crap, so it isnt a fair comparison to make. You could equally say the same for any Jap brand. Most of them make pretty decent engines. Just becuase one brand decides to make their engines screamers, doesnt make them impressive.
Motorbike engines are though.
On the same note, you could say Rover excelled with their K-Series. Im sure thousands of head gaskets later, some would disagree. Some people still love them though.
True, Honda engines are generally very reliable. But they do have failures too.
Forced induction engines impress me more. They are smooth, refined, make power and torque, and often fuel economy doesnt suffer either. So you get everything in a smooth refined package, and fairly stress free.
And as I said, finally Honda have realised this, and are heading this route.
stevieturbo said:
High rpm's = power
low rpm's = torque
low rpm's = torque
Torque is a function of BMEP and displacement, engine speed has nothing to do with it.
stevieturbo said:
Honda makes them rev via their V-Tec system, which allows them to make some power, but relatively low torque at the opposite end.
Whereas other manufacturers choose to use a lower rpm range, and make less power, and more torque.
Vtec does not help rev high, it provides different cam profiles for different engine speeds to help combat the trade-off that you highlight between high speed and low-end torque.
Other manufacturers also use variable valve timing (Vanos, VVTi, VarioCam etc...) it is not limited to Honda. Variable valve timing wasn't even invented by Honda, it was first patented by Fiat and first used comercially by GM.
And as I said, finally Honda have realised this, and are heading this route...............quote
Honda have used Turbos before stevie,i think you need to look inside a Honda engine,anything with a Turbo or Supercharger is going to make sensible power,but that is not the point,the point is Honda can make a high reving engine relable something alot of manafacturers can only dream of.As i said before stevie, you can not compare Honda engines with the other dross,there in another league and yes when there turboed or supercharged there even more mental the only differance is you dont need to bin the standard internals cos there already high quality.And yes Honda are fascinated with piston speeds,but thats purely because they have what it takes while other manafacturers are throwing rods(dreamers).Oh yes but Honda perfected variable valve timing,as much as i like toyota there system is not in the same ballpark and neither are the others,i have never come across vtec failure even with missed oil changes,im not saying Honda engines are perfect but they run rings round the majority,and there engineering is second to none.
Honda have used Turbos before stevie,i think you need to look inside a Honda engine,anything with a Turbo or Supercharger is going to make sensible power,but that is not the point,the point is Honda can make a high reving engine relable something alot of manafacturers can only dream of.As i said before stevie, you can not compare Honda engines with the other dross,there in another league and yes when there turboed or supercharged there even more mental the only differance is you dont need to bin the standard internals cos there already high quality.And yes Honda are fascinated with piston speeds,but thats purely because they have what it takes while other manafacturers are throwing rods(dreamers).Oh yes but Honda perfected variable valve timing,as much as i like toyota there system is not in the same ballpark and neither are the others,i have never come across vtec failure even with missed oil changes,im not saying Honda engines are perfect but they run rings round the majority,and there engineering is second to none.
Edited by That Daddy on Saturday 17th February 18:28
Edited by That Daddy on Saturday 17th February 18:28
Chris944_S2 said:
[quote=stevieturbo]High rpm's = power
low rpm's = torque
low rpm's = torque
Torque is a function of BMEP and displacement, engine speed has nothing to do with it.
I was more highlighting the fact, that engines that produce good torque, do so with a lowish rpm operating range.
And engines that produce a lot of power, usually do it requiring high rpm's
Quite often with a normally aspirated engine, its rare to see both. Obviously I like engines with a lot of power, but if it was at the expense of a lot of torque, ( like motorbke engines ) then IMO, they have very limited use. At least in the car world.
stevieturbo said:
Chris944_S2 said:
[quote=stevieturbo]High rpm's = power
low rpm's = torque
low rpm's = torque
Torque is a function of BMEP and displacement, engine speed has nothing to do with it.
I was more highlighting the fact, that engines that produce good torque, do so with a lowish rpm operating range.
And engines that produce a lot of power, usually do it requiring high rpm's
Quite often with a normally aspirated engine, its rare to see both. Obviously I like engines with a lot of power, but if it was at the expense of a lot of torque, ( like motorbke engines ) then IMO, they have very limited use. At least in the car world.
I get your point Stevie,you can see how i read your post though,Honda engines may not be your bag but to say there nothing special is a tad unfare.
Eh ? Honda engines special ? Not really, the S2000 engine for example is a bit different but it's a niche car, a one off that Honda chose to produce, most others would use a V6 rather than a 4pot that revs to 9K. A lot of kit cars have 2.0 Vauxhall engines that make 250+bhp and the Ford Duratec will make 260-270 bhp with ease.
Most other Honda engines are no different from a Toyota, Ford or Vauxhall engine. Honda choose to make them slightly smaller and rev them higher whereas Ford for example choose to make them bigger and lower revving. The general public like lower revving engines on the whole, it's easier to extract the power from them. One reason sales reps actually like diesels these days, lots of low down torque and no need to rev the nuts off them. Revving hard might be fun for the first 10 mins but gets very tiring if you have to do it all day.
Bike engines are a different matter alltogether...have you heard of Suzuki ? 
Most other Honda engines are no different from a Toyota, Ford or Vauxhall engine. Honda choose to make them slightly smaller and rev them higher whereas Ford for example choose to make them bigger and lower revving. The general public like lower revving engines on the whole, it's easier to extract the power from them. One reason sales reps actually like diesels these days, lots of low down torque and no need to rev the nuts off them. Revving hard might be fun for the first 10 mins but gets very tiring if you have to do it all day.
Bike engines are a different matter alltogether...have you heard of Suzuki ?
busa_rush said:
A lot of kit cars have 2.0 Vauxhall engines that make 250+bhp and the Ford Duratec will make 260-270 bhp with ease.
M
M
But the Kit Car engines developed nothing like that until they were sent to the tuner, whereas an S2000 engine develops 240 BHP in standard trim and is guaranteed for 3 years (longer if you extend warrantee I guess).
You see S2000s for sale with 80K on the clock and a dealer guarantee; would you buy one of these kit car engines if had done 80K? Would a dealer want to guarantee one of these kit car engines, presuming an engine in such a state of tune could get to 80K without a rebuild?
My point is that Honda have been supplying engines for well over a decade now that have a mighty high output for a small displacement, and it's very rare to hear of them going wrong prior to 120K-or-so of driving.
I don't think that the Vauxhall or Duratec lumps bear comparison here as they're not available with that power output from a High St. dealer with a guarantee.
BTW - whilst I admire Honda's engineering integrity, I do think there's a lot going for a traditional engine with low-down torque, such as a Fiat Twin-Cam, as you can overtake briskly without having to rev it past 6K.
Busa rush,saying that the internals of a Honda unit are like a Ford or Vauxhall unit is crap,you dont know your engines mate,i would have thought your user name would give some indication of your knowledge of jap engineering but obviously not,what a statement,im sorry but you have blown me away.
Someone post up a dyno graph of a normal 2.0 v versus a Vtech with the extra rev band so in on the same scale.
Honda engines generally don't produce any more torque than any other similar engine, its just the fact that they can rev to 8-9k. It's the rpms x the torque which is where the high BHP figure comes from. Without the revs they are in fact just as gutless as any other tuned N/A engine.
They are however exceptionally well engineered, which is where they have the ability to make the revs without blowing up :just to keep you Yo V-tech boys happy:
I await to be disproven
Honda engines generally don't produce any more torque than any other similar engine, its just the fact that they can rev to 8-9k. It's the rpms x the torque which is where the high BHP figure comes from. Without the revs they are in fact just as gutless as any other tuned N/A engine.
They are however exceptionally well engineered, which is where they have the ability to make the revs without blowing up :just to keep you Yo V-tech boys happy:
I await to be disproven
Edited by cptsideways on Sunday 18th February 17:42
flat16 said:
busa_rush said:
A lot of kit cars have 2.0 Vauxhall engines that make 250+bhp and the Ford Duratec will make 260-270 bhp with ease.
M
M
But the Kit Car engines developed nothing like that until they were sent to the tuner, whereas an S2000 engine develops 240 BHP in standard trim and is guaranteed for 3 years (longer if you extend warrantee I guess).
You see S2000s for sale with 80K on the clock and a dealer guarantee; would you buy one of these kit car engines if had done 80K? Would a dealer want to guarantee one of these kit car engines, presuming an engine in such a state of tune could get to 80K without a rebuild?
My point is that Honda have been supplying engines for well over a decade now that have a mighty high output for a small displacement, and it's very rare to hear of them going wrong prior to 120K-or-so of driving.
I don't think that the Vauxhall or Duratec lumps bear comparison here as they're not available with that power output from a High St. dealer with a guarantee.
BTW - whilst I admire Honda's engineering integrity, I do think there's a lot going for a traditional engine with low-down torque, such as a Fiat Twin-Cam, as you can overtake briskly without having to rev it past 6K.
I would be happy buying a Cosworth 2.3l Duratec with lots of miles on it, providing it received regular maintenance! You can buy 300bhp Duratec engines off the shelf so to speak, so that option is available to any manufacturer it's just that Honda choose to do it from the factory - Ford, Vauxhall, Rover etc could have made a 240bhp N/A 2.0 if they chose to, but it just wasn't they way they wanted to go.
Like somebody else said above, generally people like torque, so most manufacturers make torquier engines, and in their higher end model go down the FI route as it gives the market what they want. In a mainstream car like a Honda/Ford etc you cannot afford to ignore public opinion.
Overall, IMO Honda do make good engines, but they are nothing outstanding, and it's nothing that any other manufacturer couldn't do if it fitted in with their business plan.
OK, i'll try and keep this brief.
As mentioned Honda get their high specific outputs because they rev the hell out of them. Very simplistically Honda will do the piston, rod, crank, valvetrain, chaindrive, bore distortion, etc calculations & analyses and then design the components, specify the materials accordingly and development test them. A new material may have been sufficiently developed and cost effective enough for automotive use and Honda may work back from that. In having to take the extra forces at high revs they will specify more costly materials, machining and inspection processes, which they pass onto the customer.
Honda have to put enormous ports and valves to get the airflow at peak power this means they lose gas velocity at lower engine speeds and loads. Even with VTEC and lower lift and duration cam profiles (and corresponding change of gulp factor) you can't totally overcome this and will compromise low speed torque and part-load fuel economy. The same laws of physics applies to Honda as it does to anybody else and each company (yes even Ford and GM
) has the ability to do this BUT choose not to make this compromise. Even Honda don't always make this compromise, look at some of their engine offerings in the US (160bhp from 2.4 litres in one engine) where part-load fuel economy from cruising is prized greatly.
That Daddy: I too admire Honda's greatly but it is perfectly possible to admire someones engineering without slagging off others! I appreciate your experience as a mechanic, but the engines you have worked on you will have absolutely no data on how it was treated. Very sweeping generalisations here, but lets face it Honda's in this country are largely bought by private buyers and generally very well cared for by their owners and sold on to people who will specifically pay extra for a Honda and also take care of it. Ford and Vauxhalls will be abused by fleet buyers and then sold on cheap at auctions and, perhaps not immediately but eventually, they end up on sink estates owned sometimes by people who think an MOT is a service!
I have seen plenty of looked after old Fords and Vauxhalls with intergalactic miles. There are loads of Transits have well over half a million miles and still going.
As mentioned Honda get their high specific outputs because they rev the hell out of them. Very simplistically Honda will do the piston, rod, crank, valvetrain, chaindrive, bore distortion, etc calculations & analyses and then design the components, specify the materials accordingly and development test them. A new material may have been sufficiently developed and cost effective enough for automotive use and Honda may work back from that. In having to take the extra forces at high revs they will specify more costly materials, machining and inspection processes, which they pass onto the customer.
Honda have to put enormous ports and valves to get the airflow at peak power this means they lose gas velocity at lower engine speeds and loads. Even with VTEC and lower lift and duration cam profiles (and corresponding change of gulp factor) you can't totally overcome this and will compromise low speed torque and part-load fuel economy. The same laws of physics applies to Honda as it does to anybody else and each company (yes even Ford and GM
) has the ability to do this BUT choose not to make this compromise. Even Honda don't always make this compromise, look at some of their engine offerings in the US (160bhp from 2.4 litres in one engine) where part-load fuel economy from cruising is prized greatly. That Daddy: I too admire Honda's greatly but it is perfectly possible to admire someones engineering without slagging off others! I appreciate your experience as a mechanic, but the engines you have worked on you will have absolutely no data on how it was treated. Very sweeping generalisations here, but lets face it Honda's in this country are largely bought by private buyers and generally very well cared for by their owners and sold on to people who will specifically pay extra for a Honda and also take care of it. Ford and Vauxhalls will be abused by fleet buyers and then sold on cheap at auctions and, perhaps not immediately but eventually, they end up on sink estates owned sometimes by people who think an MOT is a service!
I have seen plenty of looked after old Fords and Vauxhalls with intergalactic miles. There are loads of Transits have well over half a million miles and still going. Edited by wheeljack on Sunday 18th February 23:22
MR2Mike said:
wheeljack said:
There are loads of Transits have well over half a million miles and still going.
Transits don't rev to 8000-9000 RPM. At least not more than once.
OK, I'll bite!!! And a Honda VTEC that revs to 8000-9000rpm won't last more than half a million miles in a Transit.
I have owned a Honda VTEC engined car (Civic Type R) and the engine was great...from 6-8K rpm and there only. Otherwise it was pretty ordinary. O.K it was smooth and fuel efficient (when not in the zone) but it was weak in torque.
As well engineered the Honda engines are I think in the long run it has probably been cheaper to develop a valvetrain system that can be engineered for all applications than it would be to do all the fluid dynamics and development on the cylinder head designs for several performance engines, whilst trying to pass the latest emissions legislation.
Honda are to be admired for making this technology work reliably and therefor making the rest of the motor industry follow suit as wellas making the bottom ends hold together at those engine speeds.
Steve
P.S. FWIW I don't think any of the high output Duratecs would pass any modern emmission legislation and therefor are not comparable.
As well engineered the Honda engines are I think in the long run it has probably been cheaper to develop a valvetrain system that can be engineered for all applications than it would be to do all the fluid dynamics and development on the cylinder head designs for several performance engines, whilst trying to pass the latest emissions legislation.
Honda are to be admired for making this technology work reliably and therefor making the rest of the motor industry follow suit as wellas making the bottom ends hold together at those engine speeds.
Steve
P.S. FWIW I don't think any of the high output Duratecs would pass any modern emmission legislation and therefor are not comparable.
stevesingo said:
Honda are to be admired for making this technology work reliably and therefor making the rest of the motor industry follow suit as wellas making the bottom ends hold together at those engine speeds.
A good reason for their bottom-ends holding together is because of some analysis software a (British) company I previously worked at sold to them!
Edited by wheeljack on Sunday 18th February 20:27
Honda are to be admired for making this technology work reliably and therefor making the rest of the motor industry follow suit as wellas making the bottom ends hold together at those engine speeds,quote................That says it all really,while the others try, and just throw out nuts and bolts from the exhaust.he,he.although i will say there sre other manafacturers that make terrific engines toyota make some nice engines too,and yes Honda are obsessed with piston speeds and may lack torque,but their engines the same as everyone else......Rubbish.
Oh and the guy that said i may be blinkered by just Honda engineering,i have built various engines and modified many too,my garage works on all makes so over the years worked on all makes of car power units.And have owned many cars other than Honda.
Wheeljack,that is a valid point you have made,and a sensible opinion.
Oh and the guy that said i may be blinkered by just Honda engineering,i have built various engines and modified many too,my garage works on all makes so over the years worked on all makes of car power units.And have owned many cars other than Honda.
Wheeljack,that is a valid point you have made,and a sensible opinion.
Edited by that daddy on Sunday 18th February 21:11
Edited by That Daddy on Sunday 18th February 21:29
I have to say that in 10 months I've owned my MY2000 S2000 I've done 10k and it's now on 124k and I never owned such a tight, well put together car. Nothing has gone wrong, not even a light bulb, I hit VTEC about 4 times a trip, if anything it's getting faster, it destroyed an 06 S2K the other day! I am very, very impressed. Just something about the solidness, the engine NEVER surges after a thrashing, never stutters, misses, starts on the 3rd turn every single time, it's precision.
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