RE: London C charge heads west
Tuesday 20th February 2007
London's congestion charge was extended westwards yesterday, with the day reported as calm.
London C charge heads west
Congestion charging enters new zone
The zone which you'll have to pay £8 a day to enter now includes the residential areas of Belgravia, Kensington, Bayswater and Notting Hill -- very different in character from the tightly packed commercial centre which was the original charging zone.
Whether you approve of the charge or not, it's most likely to be judged a success or not based on whether it meets its objectives. So, can it?
According to Transport for London's figures, there remains congestion in the commercial centre, much of it caused by the way that public transport has been given priority via bus lanes and the like. However, most traffic in the city consists of commercial vehicles, and cars were only ever a small proportion of the traffic.
In the west end of London, things are different, since people live there, and car journeys are far more likely to start and end there, and private cars make up most of the traffic.
But since a large proportion of the journeys will undertaken by people who live there, a charge is unlikely to change that behaviour much. What's more, since the charge will be reduced for residents, it won't even make enough money to pay for improved public transport -- one of the key benefits trumpeted for the charge.
Also, since they've already paid the discounted charge, residents can drive anywhere inside the zone -- including into the city. So one strong possibility is that congestion in the city will get worse as those who live in the residential areas make use of their new-found freedom. The only way this could change is by a more sophisticated form of road charging.
Without that, the extended congestion zone might -- just might -- be adjudged a waste of time and money.
As for the rest of us, we have to hope that the political obstacles to introducing a per-car surveillance system will persuade the politicians that we don't want to go any further down the Big Brother route that Britain, the most surveilled nation in the world, has already travelled.
The petition on the Prime Minister's Web site against road charging has reached nearly 1.7 million signatures...
Discussion
The whole congestion charge is a tax aimed at punishing the poor. My wifes boss, who is a multi millionaire, now regularly travels up to central london (from the South Coast) in his car as there certainly is less traffic on the road - he has no worries about paying the congestion charge (probably writes it off as a company expense anyway) and travels much less on public transport than he used to. So for those with money, its a simple way of making their journey easier. Obviously, he doesnt drive a small, fuel efficient car either - his vehicle of choice is a rather large Volvo 4x4 (he has 4 kids so its true he needs 7 seats - although he and his wife do both have the same vehicle LOL).
This leaves lower income people that live outside the congestion area facing having to travel by public transport. Actually, no, lets face it, its not really 'public transport', is it - its the transport of the low class - when was the last time you got on a crowded tube and saw the wealthy or elite traveling on it...? Never seen anyone of note on a red bus...?
So if your a well to do business man with a 2 million quid flat overlooking the city, you dont pay the full congestion charge, but if your a £15k a year nurse working in a city centre hospital, you have no choice but 'public' transport.
As with all 'tax' systems that are being introduced, its those that can least afford to pay it that will be forced into a life style that is not their preferred choice, and those that can afford to pay it that benifit most from having the reduced congestion on our roads.
This leaves lower income people that live outside the congestion area facing having to travel by public transport. Actually, no, lets face it, its not really 'public transport', is it - its the transport of the low class - when was the last time you got on a crowded tube and saw the wealthy or elite traveling on it...? Never seen anyone of note on a red bus...?
So if your a well to do business man with a 2 million quid flat overlooking the city, you dont pay the full congestion charge, but if your a £15k a year nurse working in a city centre hospital, you have no choice but 'public' transport.
As with all 'tax' systems that are being introduced, its those that can least afford to pay it that will be forced into a life style that is not their preferred choice, and those that can afford to pay it that benifit most from having the reduced congestion on our roads.
Edited by tony*t3 on Tuesday 20th February 10:32
Edited by tony*t3 on Tuesday 20th February 10:33
I live and work in London, and remember how things changed when the central congestion zone was introduced. I personally thought that things improved lots, with far fewer cars being used for the commute to the office.
Whilst I didn't expect it, I'm guessing that a sideline benefit was for the area just outside of the zone. Yes you had the people "skirting" around the edges, but IMO that was more than made up for by the reduction of people too lazy to use the train services into central London, meaning that even the places outside the zone benefitted.
Personally I think that it was a success, and yes I do drive in London.
Whilst I didn't expect it, I'm guessing that a sideline benefit was for the area just outside of the zone. Yes you had the people "skirting" around the edges, but IMO that was more than made up for by the reduction of people too lazy to use the train services into central London, meaning that even the places outside the zone benefitted.
Personally I think that it was a success, and yes I do drive in London.
I also live, work and drive in London and totally disagree that the original C charge has worked at all.
Anyone extolling the benefits of an immediate reduction in traffic/congestion when the first scheme was introduced is forgetting that TFL gradually changed the phasing of all the traffic lights in the run up period to it's introduction, then on the day of charges launch switched them all back to how they were. They even admitted as much when challenged. To me this is an absolute outrage and can't I can't believe that more was not made of it at the time - he deliberately slowed down the traffic!!!!
As for congestion now returning to pre C-Charge levels due to prioritisation of Bus Lanes, Cycle Lanes and inumerable new traffic lights, surely this is completely contrary to the claimed aims of the C-Charge - to increase traffic flow and reduce emissions?
The whole thing is an absolute scandal and yet nothing ever seems to be done!
Anyone extolling the benefits of an immediate reduction in traffic/congestion when the first scheme was introduced is forgetting that TFL gradually changed the phasing of all the traffic lights in the run up period to it's introduction, then on the day of charges launch switched them all back to how they were. They even admitted as much when challenged. To me this is an absolute outrage and can't I can't believe that more was not made of it at the time - he deliberately slowed down the traffic!!!!
As for congestion now returning to pre C-Charge levels due to prioritisation of Bus Lanes, Cycle Lanes and inumerable new traffic lights, surely this is completely contrary to the claimed aims of the C-Charge - to increase traffic flow and reduce emissions?
The whole thing is an absolute scandal and yet nothing ever seems to be done!
tony*t3 said:
The whole congestion charge is a tax aimed at punishing the poor. My wifes boss, who is a multi millionaire, now regularly travels up to central london (from the South Coast) in his car as there certainly is less traffic on the road - he has no worries about paying the congestion charge (probably writes it off as a company expense anyway) and travels much less on public transport than he used to. So for those with money, its a simple way of making their journey easier. Obviously, he doesnt drive a small, fuel efficient car either - his vehicle of choice is a rather large Volvo 4x4 (he has 4 kids so its true he needs 7 seats - although he and his wife do both have the same vehicle LOL).
This leaves lower income people that live outside the congestion area facing having to travel by public transport. Actually, no, lets face it, its not really 'public transport', is it - its the transport of the low class - when was the last time you got on a crowded tube and saw the wealthy or elite traveling on it...? Never seen anyone of note on a red bus...?
So if your a well to do business man with a 2 million quid flat overlooking the city, you dont pay the full congestion charge, but if your a £15k a year nurse working in a city centre hospital, you have no choice but 'public' transport.
As with all 'tax' systems that are being introduced, its those that can least afford to pay it that will be forced into a life style that is not their preferred choice, and those that can afford to pay it that benifit most from having the reduced congestion on our roads.
This leaves lower income people that live outside the congestion area facing having to travel by public transport. Actually, no, lets face it, its not really 'public transport', is it - its the transport of the low class - when was the last time you got on a crowded tube and saw the wealthy or elite traveling on it...? Never seen anyone of note on a red bus...?
So if your a well to do business man with a 2 million quid flat overlooking the city, you dont pay the full congestion charge, but if your a £15k a year nurse working in a city centre hospital, you have no choice but 'public' transport.
As with all 'tax' systems that are being introduced, its those that can least afford to pay it that will be forced into a life style that is not their preferred choice, and those that can afford to pay it that benifit most from having the reduced congestion on our roads.
Edited by tony*t3 on Tuesday 20th February 10:32
Edited by tony*t3 on Tuesday 20th February 10:33
So I am not the only one to see the irony that this nasty little communist has cleared the roads for the rich to get where they are going in maximum comfort.
When ever i go to Central London the only vehicles i see are Buses,blackcabs (at one time it seemed there were only hackney carrages on the road!!!)and bikes. Even without cars we still get traffic jams,the last time i went to oxford street the traffic was so slow i got off the bus and walked to edgware road,and got there quicker then my bus. Lets face it the real culprits causing congestion and pollution are thoses swines working for kens so called transport for london!!! I remeber an article in autocar magazine (about 3 years ago),in which a report was carried out about which vehicle produces the most pollution pound for pound. I cant remember the exact figures but the average car produced something like 178 emissions per kg, whereas Blackcabs (TX1) produced well over 250 emissions per kg,buses topped the chart,but then again Ken doesnt care, just as long as the GLA is generating enough proft red ken will remain happy. Soon the zone will spread ......next up will be bethnal green followed by canarys wharf,...soon the zone will creep up to finchley, then wandsworth, and before u know it all of London will be a congestion charge zone
I cycle to work every day through the new and old congestion charge zones. The traffic was very light today but that is because it is half-term. Let's see what it is like next week. I'd be surprised if it was much different except for the fact that the work to the pavement on New Kings Road by Stamford Bridge, that has been going on for the past 2 weeks and causing traffic jams, has now miraculously finished (conspiracy theorist's manna).
From a cyclists perspective I don't feel the congestion charge makes any difference as the buses are driven by local hoodies who carve me up or attempt to make me the filling of a bus and pavement sandwich. As do the cabs, lorries, vans etc. etc.
From a resident living just outside the zone I object whole heartedly. Mainly to do with the way the decision was made. On the original questionnaire, the only way to say you did not want the congestion charge was not to answer any questions and send the form back with your details only.
From a cyclists perspective I don't feel the congestion charge makes any difference as the buses are driven by local hoodies who carve me up or attempt to make me the filling of a bus and pavement sandwich. As do the cabs, lorries, vans etc. etc.
From a resident living just outside the zone I object whole heartedly. Mainly to do with the way the decision was made. On the original questionnaire, the only way to say you did not want the congestion charge was not to answer any questions and send the form back with your details only.
I make a point of not travelling to or spending any money in, any places where I have to pay extra above the VED and the fuel taxes to use the roads, like London or Oxford.
I live just outside London, but now only go there by car about once a year or only when absolutely necessary, and I can't be asked to use the smelly, dirty, crime ridden public transport. But the trouble is that if this congestion charge or road pricing does become wide spread I can see the time when it will begin to affect the lifestyle I have chosen for myself.
Unconsciously I think I will probably begin to be less willing go anywhere (certainly for any just pleasure purposes)or if I've little spare cash I would have to save on journies unless its absolutely vital. It will be a limiting factor on mine and many people's lives. We could all become 'little villagers' who for most of the time, never stray more than a few miles from home.
I live just outside London, but now only go there by car about once a year or only when absolutely necessary, and I can't be asked to use the smelly, dirty, crime ridden public transport. But the trouble is that if this congestion charge or road pricing does become wide spread I can see the time when it will begin to affect the lifestyle I have chosen for myself.
Unconsciously I think I will probably begin to be less willing go anywhere (certainly for any just pleasure purposes)or if I've little spare cash I would have to save on journies unless its absolutely vital. It will be a limiting factor on mine and many people's lives. We could all become 'little villagers' who for most of the time, never stray more than a few miles from home.
Vesuvius 996 said:
tony*t3 said:
The whole congestion charge is a tax aimed at punishing the poor. My wifes boss, who is a multi millionaire, now regularly travels up to central london (from the South Coast) in his car as there certainly is less traffic on the road - he has no worries about paying the congestion charge (probably writes it off as a company expense anyway) and travels much less on public transport than he used to. So for those with money, its a simple way of making their journey easier. Obviously, he doesnt drive a small, fuel efficient car either - his vehicle of choice is a rather large Volvo 4x4 (he has 4 kids so its true he needs 7 seats - although he and his wife do both have the same vehicle LOL).
This leaves lower income people that live outside the congestion area facing having to travel by public transport. Actually, no, lets face it, its not really 'public transport', is it - its the transport of the low class - when was the last time you got on a crowded tube and saw the wealthy or elite traveling on it...? Never seen anyone of note on a red bus...?
So if your a well to do business man with a 2 million quid flat overlooking the city, you dont pay the full congestion charge, but if your a £15k a year nurse working in a city centre hospital, you have no choice but 'public' transport.
As with all 'tax' systems that are being introduced, its those that can least afford to pay it that will be forced into a life style that is not their preferred choice, and those that can afford to pay it that benifit most from having the reduced congestion on our roads.
This leaves lower income people that live outside the congestion area facing having to travel by public transport. Actually, no, lets face it, its not really 'public transport', is it - its the transport of the low class - when was the last time you got on a crowded tube and saw the wealthy or elite traveling on it...? Never seen anyone of note on a red bus...?
So if your a well to do business man with a 2 million quid flat overlooking the city, you dont pay the full congestion charge, but if your a £15k a year nurse working in a city centre hospital, you have no choice but 'public' transport.
As with all 'tax' systems that are being introduced, its those that can least afford to pay it that will be forced into a life style that is not their preferred choice, and those that can afford to pay it that benifit most from having the reduced congestion on our roads.
Edited by tony*t3 on Tuesday 20th February 10:32
Edited by tony*t3 on Tuesday 20th February 10:33
So I am not the only one to see the irony that this nasty little communist has cleared the roads for the rich to get where they are going in maximum comfort.
it will all end in sorrow for rich and poor!
C CHARGE IS THE NEW "MADMAN" MADE VIRUS FIRST IT IS SUPPOSED TO CUT DOWN TRAFFIC IN OVER BURNED AREAS WELL IT WORKED FIRSTLY THE TRAFFIC FOUND WAYS TO GO AROUND INCREASING THE TRAFFIC IN SOURROUNDING AREAS SO THEN THEY EXTENDED IT WHO'S NEXT
I THINK AT LEAST IF YOU HAVE TO PUT A TAX AT LEAST MAKE THE COST REASONABLE AND INSTEAD OF CHIPPING AWAY AT SMALL PARTS OF LONDON JUST MAKE A EVERY AREA IN THE M25 BOUNDRY A C/CHARGE AREA WITH A DAILY CHARGE OF £2 DISCOUNTED ON PRE-PAY SYSTEM AT LEAST THIS WOULD BE A FAIR SYSTEM AND LOOK AT WHO SHOULD BE DISCOUNTED TO £1 PER DAY LIKE MEDICAL STAFF NURSES, FIREMEN ETC TEACHERS AND OTHER LOW PAID VITAL SERVICE PROVIDERS AND PEOPLE WORK IN VITAL CHARITY AND COMMUNITY GROUPS.
FAILING A FAIRER SYSTEMS WHY NOT REGISTER TO BECOME A "PRIVATE CAR HIRE DRIVER" THEY PAY £104.00 PER YEAR FOR THEIR BADGE. OR BE REALLY SMART THE COST OF DRIVING IN THE C CHARGE AREA IS 8-10 PER DAY BASED ON 5 DAYS THE AVERAGE COST 50 POUNDS A WEEK X PER MONTH AVERAGE 250.00 TO 300.00 PRICE OF A SECOND MORGAGE THEREFORE BUY A SMALL FLAT CLAIM THE RESIDENTS DISCOUNT AND RENT OUT ROOMS TO COVER THE COST OF THE MORGAGE AND END UP WITH A GREAT ASSET FOR YOUR OLD AGE
I THINK AT LEAST IF YOU HAVE TO PUT A TAX AT LEAST MAKE THE COST REASONABLE AND INSTEAD OF CHIPPING AWAY AT SMALL PARTS OF LONDON JUST MAKE A EVERY AREA IN THE M25 BOUNDRY A C/CHARGE AREA WITH A DAILY CHARGE OF £2 DISCOUNTED ON PRE-PAY SYSTEM AT LEAST THIS WOULD BE A FAIR SYSTEM AND LOOK AT WHO SHOULD BE DISCOUNTED TO £1 PER DAY LIKE MEDICAL STAFF NURSES, FIREMEN ETC TEACHERS AND OTHER LOW PAID VITAL SERVICE PROVIDERS AND PEOPLE WORK IN VITAL CHARITY AND COMMUNITY GROUPS.
FAILING A FAIRER SYSTEMS WHY NOT REGISTER TO BECOME A "PRIVATE CAR HIRE DRIVER" THEY PAY £104.00 PER YEAR FOR THEIR BADGE. OR BE REALLY SMART THE COST OF DRIVING IN THE C CHARGE AREA IS 8-10 PER DAY BASED ON 5 DAYS THE AVERAGE COST 50 POUNDS A WEEK X PER MONTH AVERAGE 250.00 TO 300.00 PRICE OF A SECOND MORGAGE THEREFORE BUY A SMALL FLAT CLAIM THE RESIDENTS DISCOUNT AND RENT OUT ROOMS TO COVER THE COST OF THE MORGAGE AND END UP WITH A GREAT ASSET FOR YOUR OLD AGE
I own a small company and we have four or five vehiles mobile within the con zone. I agree with Tony*13 when he points out that this tax is going to hurt the poor because they can least afford it, the better off will do what we do.... Our position is, as is many other businesses, is to pass on the charge to our clients, (we add a margin too). It is all tax deductable in any event. I personally will never ever use transport for London's public transport system because it is unreliable, the staff are rude arrogant and ignorant, it's expensive, doesn't stop outside my house, takes forever to arrive anywhere compared to a car, uncomfortable, subject to crime and violence at nights, cancellations at weekends and public holidays and frankly buses and tubes smell of toilets!.
I drive a big fat Merc during the week and a very fast sports car at weekends. I refuse to live in London because of the war waged on us car owners, thus I deprive London of both my day to day custom, and living costs such as poll tax residents permits etc etc. I am very glad to leave London at the end of each day in air conditioned luxury, a heated electric leather seat, a choice of music, dark tinted glass and security locks to keep out the unwelcome.
Well what would you do given the choice? (And I dont care if Ken provided me with my very own tube station and bus stop, gave me an un limited oyster card and Prince Harry to drive the smelly bus or tube, no I still wouldn't go by public transport.)
I drive a big fat Merc during the week and a very fast sports car at weekends. I refuse to live in London because of the war waged on us car owners, thus I deprive London of both my day to day custom, and living costs such as poll tax residents permits etc etc. I am very glad to leave London at the end of each day in air conditioned luxury, a heated electric leather seat, a choice of music, dark tinted glass and security locks to keep out the unwelcome.
Well what would you do given the choice? (And I dont care if Ken provided me with my very own tube station and bus stop, gave me an un limited oyster card and Prince Harry to drive the smelly bus or tube, no I still wouldn't go by public transport.)
Lets never forget Kens most famous line...
"I hate cars, if I ever get any power again I will ban the lot of them"
This mentally unstable socialist is just venting his own personal hatred of the motor car on the poor people of London.
God only knows why he hates them so much, maybe after 15 attempts he failed his test and defiantly thought 'If I cant drive one, then no one will drive one'
"I hate cars, if I ever get any power again I will ban the lot of them"
This mentally unstable socialist is just venting his own personal hatred of the motor car on the poor people of London.
God only knows why he hates them so much, maybe after 15 attempts he failed his test and defiantly thought 'If I cant drive one, then no one will drive one'
what really annoys me, and i've said as much in an email to the chief c0ckologist at city hall, is, as a resident, if I use my car in the evening, outside the congestion period, then come home late, and can't find a space to park, I used to leave it on a yellow line, and move it in the morning when a space would be easy as people left for work. The problem now is that unless I get up and move it before 7am (yeah right) I have to pay £4 even if i move it 5 yards up the road into a space!!!!!! and the so called 90% discount is also b*****cks you have to buy 5 days at a time- hence one 5 yard move from yellow line to parking space costs me £4! well as for your congestion reducing measures Herr Livingston, since you make me pay for 5 days, I am far more likely to use my car in the next 4 days since i've already paid the charge, I bet none of your a$$licking chums at capita factored that into the equations - or maybe they did but you were too busy on a junket to Cuba to give a shit
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