Discussion
As a relative newbie I apologise if this has been covered before but I searched the last year and couldn't find it so...
Whilst I understand the logic behind brake assist that is put on some new cars it scares me.
Several times I have left adequate distance ahead for not only me to stop but also the numpty behind and this has proved wise. I then brake hard, but not all the way because if I did I would get someone with more car than IQ added to my boot.
However if I had this brake assist would it apply more brake without me having any choice, thus leaving me with a MPV/4x4/maxed up boy racer alongside my weekly shopping?
I have never owned or driven a car with this so I am asking from a position of substantial ignorance
Whilst I understand the logic behind brake assist that is put on some new cars it scares me.
Several times I have left adequate distance ahead for not only me to stop but also the numpty behind and this has proved wise. I then brake hard, but not all the way because if I did I would get someone with more car than IQ added to my boot.
However if I had this brake assist would it apply more brake without me having any choice, thus leaving me with a MPV/4x4/maxed up boy racer alongside my weekly shopping?
I have never owned or driven a car with this so I am asking from a position of substantial ignorance
I test drove a Merc S-Class with it.
Effin AMAZING.
Doesn't come on in normal driving. Or normal braking, either. Even hard braking - nope doesn't come on.
Stab that pedal (simulating raw fear) and the car stops like someone threw out a big anchor.
Surprisingly good.
I wouldn't want it on my track car/sports car. I'd be VERY happy to have it fitted on my waftmatic for the public roads.
Effin AMAZING.
Doesn't come on in normal driving. Or normal braking, either. Even hard braking - nope doesn't come on.
Stab that pedal (simulating raw fear) and the car stops like someone threw out a big anchor.
Surprisingly good.
I wouldn't want it on my track car/sports car. I'd be VERY happy to have it fitted on my waftmatic for the public roads.
Never experienced it, but if there was something that sensed me going for the emergency stop (i.e. applied max braking force as soon as the pedal moved that first 1cm at high speed) then that would be a great thing. However, it would have to stop "emergency" braking as soon as I lifted the brake pedal from the floor.
Anything that reduces the time to start scrubbing lots of speed in an emergency sounds a good thing. My only concern would be control. How much could something like this affect the balance of a car mid-bend say?
Anything that reduces the time to start scrubbing lots of speed in an emergency sounds a good thing. My only concern would be control. How much could something like this affect the balance of a car mid-bend say?
tigger1 said:
Never experienced it, but if there was something that sensed me going for the emergency stop (i.e. applied max braking force as soon as the pedal moved that first 1cm at high speed) then that would be a great thing. However, it would have to stop "emergency" braking as soon as I lifted the brake pedal from the floor.
Anything that reduces the time to start scrubbing lots of speed in an emergency sounds a good thing. My only concern would be control. How much could something like this affect the balance of a car mid-bend say?
Anything that reduces the time to start scrubbing lots of speed in an emergency sounds a good thing. My only concern would be control. How much could something like this affect the balance of a car mid-bend say?
No way would this be a problem mid-bend. For a start in normal driving you won't be braking in a corner anyway. In an emergency brake mid-bend Brake Assist will be working with the ABS and ESP as well to try and
a) Slow down as much as possible
b) Retain steering control so you can point the car away from the danger.
In the Merc I only tried a full brake to a halt. I imagine brake assist cuts out if you take your foot off the pedal but I didn't try this so am not in a position to confirm either way.
Had it on a previous car ...
It worked by (when hitiing the middle pedal quickly) reducing the effort required to brake, so you basically hit max braking straight away.
Used it once (accident in lane next to me on M3, very minor, but numnuts in the range rover served straight in front of me, just as I happened to look in the mirror ... Looked back and
)
Hit brakes (no other option as car on nearside of me ...) and was amazed at how "violently" the car stopped. ABS on straight away and I just left my foot there ... Stopped easily - have to admit I was very impressed.
Martin
It worked by (when hitiing the middle pedal quickly) reducing the effort required to brake, so you basically hit max braking straight away.
Used it once (accident in lane next to me on M3, very minor, but numnuts in the range rover served straight in front of me, just as I happened to look in the mirror ... Looked back and
) Hit brakes (no other option as car on nearside of me ...) and was amazed at how "violently" the car stopped. ABS on straight away and I just left my foot there ... Stopped easily - have to admit I was very impressed.
Martin
Didn't like it on my Mercs. Twice I had to brake hard only for the hazard to subside (boucing ball from behind a car NOT followed by a child) I see there is no child so ease of the brakes and the car decides it is going to come to a complete hault!
It applied far more braking force than I wanted and never let me back in control until we had stopped. In a funny way I felt it made me less safe because I was then reluctant to apply strong braking forces in order to prevent it doing it again? Like all "numpty systems" it can have its place but is too crude to understand the subtleties of control.
Paul.B
It applied far more braking force than I wanted and never let me back in control until we had stopped. In a funny way I felt it made me less safe because I was then reluctant to apply strong braking forces in order to prevent it doing it again? Like all "numpty systems" it can have its place but is too crude to understand the subtleties of control.
Paul.B
Paul.B said:
It applied far more braking force than I wanted and never let me back in control until we had stopped. In a funny way I felt it made me less safe because
That could be very scary - imagine braking on a M'way to avoid a lane changer, so possible hard brake, yes, but not wanting to come to a complete stop.
Brake assist is not an on-off switch. Even after the system has triggered, the braking effect can be modulated by easing off the brakes.
The main reason for the development of Brake-Assist is due to the prolifereation of ABS.
Researched proved that when many typical drivers feel ABS vibration in the brake pedal, they lifted their foot off the brake!!
Brake assist does not respond to the pressure on the pedal so much as the speed of application. A panic brake normally consists of the pedal being pushed down very fast and the brake assist intervenes to help get a good short stopping distance.
If the car is stopping too short of where the driver expects, they would quite naturally ease of the brakes to adjust the stopping point or come off the brakes altogether and continue driving after the speed adjustment.
Fantastic system! If you are prepared to learn all about heavy braking and controllability, just go out and play with the ABS/BAS on your car. Just remember the brakes will be operating at their max performance and will heat up and wear accordingly.
The main reason for the development of Brake-Assist is due to the prolifereation of ABS.
Researched proved that when many typical drivers feel ABS vibration in the brake pedal, they lifted their foot off the brake!!
Brake assist does not respond to the pressure on the pedal so much as the speed of application. A panic brake normally consists of the pedal being pushed down very fast and the brake assist intervenes to help get a good short stopping distance.
If the car is stopping too short of where the driver expects, they would quite naturally ease of the brakes to adjust the stopping point or come off the brakes altogether and continue driving after the speed adjustment.
Fantastic system! If you are prepared to learn all about heavy braking and controllability, just go out and play with the ABS/BAS on your car. Just remember the brakes will be operating at their max performance and will heat up and wear accordingly.
Hmm, we now have one car with this, the shopping car, Micra 160SR.
I've had it activate once.
Traffic lights went to amber, nobody behind me, I braked at a pressure I was sure would give the necessary retardation but got more than I anticipated.
I really should "play" with this to understand it more.
I'm one of those who regard heavy braking, on the public highway, as a failure on my part to anticipate btw.
I've had it activate once.
Traffic lights went to amber, nobody behind me, I braked at a pressure I was sure would give the necessary retardation but got more than I anticipated.
I really should "play" with this to understand it more.
I'm one of those who regard heavy braking, on the public highway, as a failure on my part to anticipate btw.
WhoseGeneration said:
I'm one of those who regard heavy braking, on the public highway, as a failure on my part to anticipate btw.
Absolutely.
But we are all imperfect drivers. And if someone else's imperfection happens to coincide with one of my imperfections I'm jolly happy that there's a really clever computer watching my back. Shouldn't need it. But its nice to know its there...
BTW Your "handle" breaks PH's quoting system. Take the Question Mark off the end of it to fix....
Edited by Don on Thursday 22 February 19:12
6speedmanual said:
Brake assist is not an on-off switch. Even after the system has triggered, the braking effect can be modulated by easing off the brakes.
The main reason for the development of Brake-Assist is due to the prolifereation of ABS.
Researched proved that when many typical drivers feel ABS vibration in the brake pedal, they lifted their foot off the brake!!
Or maybe they wanted to have less braking force applied?
Brake assist does not respond to the pressure on the pedal so much as the speed of application. A panic brake normally consists of the pedal being pushed down very fast and the brake assist intervenes to help get a good short stopping distance.
If the car is stopping too short of where the driver expects, they would quite naturally ease of the brakes to adjust the stopping point or come off the brakes altogether and continue driving after the speed adjustment.
In the case of both Merc I have had the system only wanted to bring the car to a stop, as soon as possible!
Fantastic system! If you are prepared to learn all about heavy braking and controllability, just go out and play with the ABS/BAS on your car. Just remember the brakes will be operating at their max performance and will heat up and wear accordingly.
The main reason for the development of Brake-Assist is due to the prolifereation of ABS.
Researched proved that when many typical drivers feel ABS vibration in the brake pedal, they lifted their foot off the brake!!
Or maybe they wanted to have less braking force applied?
Brake assist does not respond to the pressure on the pedal so much as the speed of application. A panic brake normally consists of the pedal being pushed down very fast and the brake assist intervenes to help get a good short stopping distance.
If the car is stopping too short of where the driver expects, they would quite naturally ease of the brakes to adjust the stopping point or come off the brakes altogether and continue driving after the speed adjustment.
In the case of both Merc I have had the system only wanted to bring the car to a stop, as soon as possible!
Fantastic system! If you are prepared to learn all about heavy braking and controllability, just go out and play with the ABS/BAS on your car. Just remember the brakes will be operating at their max performance and will heat up and wear accordingly.
So I still stand by what I said. Too crude to understand the subtleties of control.
The system does however have a place on todays roads. My point is that some systems think they know best when that is not always the case.
Paul.B
Edited by Paul.B on Friday 23 February 19:04
6speedmanual said:
If you are prepared to learn all about heavy braking and controllability, just go out and play with the ABS/BAS on your car. Just remember the brakes will be operating at their max performance and will heat up and wear accordingly.
I hope I'll keep my playing with heavy braking to the race track - where the Tiv's ABS is of the old-fashioned sort - the ankle muscle.
I have had Brake Assist on an Audi A4 and also on my current Civic Type-S. On the Civic it seems to act as a previos poster suggested - it reacts to speed of application of the brakes. An experiemnt on a quiet and straight county road showed that if I braked as fast and as hard (bum beginning to leave seat) as I could BA gave a little improvement in stopping distance - mainly from the way it speeded up the initial application to full pressure. However, if I applied the brakes fast but not to full pressure I could feel the brakes being applied harder than just from the pressure of my foot. Any releasing of the pressure of my foot on the brake pedal and the BA immediately ceased to operate.
I don't see how BA solves the problem of people not familiar with the feel of ABS operating releasing the brake pedal when they feel the 'kick-back'. I have spent time with my wife and two daughters ensuring they are familiar with the feel of the ABS operating.
I don't see how BA solves the problem of people not familiar with the feel of ABS operating releasing the brake pedal when they feel the 'kick-back'. I have spent time with my wife and two daughters ensuring they are familiar with the feel of the ABS operating.
Philbes said:
I don't see how BA solves the problem of people not familiar with the feel of ABS operating releasing the brake pedal when they feel the 'kick-back'. I have spent time with my wife and two daughters ensuring they are familiar with the feel of the ABS operating.
That is a good idea. I have trouble making 'suggestions' on driving style to Mrs Paul.B but I may take her somewhere quiet and allow her to feel some vibrations!!!
Paul.B
I have similar sort of dislikes for standard ABS. It should be switchable like traction control! In the snow the other week I came across a situation on a wide road where I lost the back end of a 4x4 at quite low speed but once the car was beyond the point of correction I instictively wanted to lock the wheels to allow it to skid to a halt in a the straight line that was its current direction of travel, but ABS prevented me from doing this. No accident resulted but I didn't like the fact that ABS removed the choice. The same could apply on track if you lost it there are circumstances where it would be desirable to slide in a straight line sideways when things go wrong rather than a curved trajectory due to either braking with ABS or not braking.
Most of the time of course ABS is great, I just wish it could be switched off when required!!
Most of the time of course ABS is great, I just wish it could be switched off when required!!
Simon Exige S said:
The same could apply on track if you lost it there are circumstances where it would be desirable to slide in a straight line sideways when things go wrong rather than a curved trajectory due to either braking with ABS or not braking.
Absolutely. Being able to lock up and keep going in a straight line rather than heading in the direction the car was pointing has saved me from a very heavy impact in the past. Having this option taken away by ABS would be a very bad move imo.
My wife has a focus c-max with EBA... I hate it... totally over sensitive, trigger happy... my poor dog who rides in the boot is always getting catapulted into the back of the rear seats evertime I have to brake a little harder, and it's hard to avoid when you have to navigate narrow lanes and numpties come blasting round corners towards you...
I used to have a MY04 focus which was great, but the new shape is just too trigger happy - designed for people with no leg muscles. In the end I deicded against the new focus's and got myself an impreza with a braking system that is more geared toward proper driving.
Point is this... each manufacturer uses a different system, so test drive exhaustivey until you are happy... it's a horrible thing to live with trigger happy brakes...
And no... I don't have a lead foot.
I used to have a MY04 focus which was great, but the new shape is just too trigger happy - designed for people with no leg muscles. In the end I deicded against the new focus's and got myself an impreza with a braking system that is more geared toward proper driving.
Point is this... each manufacturer uses a different system, so test drive exhaustivey until you are happy... it's a horrible thing to live with trigger happy brakes...
And no... I don't have a lead foot.
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