Discussion
stephen300o said:
How does this advanced driving stuff work if your've got a stutter or even mute?, seems to be more of a talking exercise than driving, and do you still have to do that dangerous hand shuffling? or can you steer normally?
It helps everyone to give commentary, but it's not compulsory.
"dangerous hand shuffling" -
I'm fairly sure the OP is trying to get a rise, but let's have a look at his point for a minute, shall we, as it's something the advanced driving "community" should be acutely aware of.
There is a misconception amongst car entusiasts that advanced driving is all wheel-shuffling, pedantic driving, carried out by beardy pipe-smokers. Admittedly, it's completely wrong, but it's an image that people still associate with advanced driving, and it's an image that the relevent organisations should be working harder to shake off.
Is there no way that advanced driving can be portrayed in a more modern way, designed to attract the hundreds of thousands of car enthusiasts out there? In my experience, a few hours tuition can allow a driver to extract more performance from their car than any host of tuning modifications, and is a far better safety aid than all the airbags and ABS systems put together.
There is a misconception amongst car entusiasts that advanced driving is all wheel-shuffling, pedantic driving, carried out by beardy pipe-smokers. Admittedly, it's completely wrong, but it's an image that people still associate with advanced driving, and it's an image that the relevent organisations should be working harder to shake off.
Is there no way that advanced driving can be portrayed in a more modern way, designed to attract the hundreds of thousands of car enthusiasts out there? In my experience, a few hours tuition can allow a driver to extract more performance from their car than any host of tuning modifications, and is a far better safety aid than all the airbags and ABS systems put together.
R_U_LOCAL said:
I'm fairly sure the OP is trying to get a rise, but let's have a look at his point for a minute, shall we, as it's something the advanced driving "community" should be acutely aware of.
There is a misconception amongst car entusiasts that advanced driving is all wheel-shuffling, pedantic driving, carried out by beardy pipe-smokers. Admittedly, it's completely wrong, but it's an image that people still associate with advanced driving, and it's an image that the relevent organisations should be working harder to shake off.
Is there no way that advanced driving can be portrayed in a more modern way, designed to attract the hundreds of thousands of car enthusiasts out there? In my experience, a few hours tuition can allow a driver to extract more performance from their car than any host of tuning modifications, and is a far better safety aid than all the airbags and ABS systems put together.
There is a misconception amongst car entusiasts that advanced driving is all wheel-shuffling, pedantic driving, carried out by beardy pipe-smokers. Admittedly, it's completely wrong, but it's an image that people still associate with advanced driving, and it's an image that the relevent organisations should be working harder to shake off.
Is there no way that advanced driving can be portrayed in a more modern way, designed to attract the hundreds of thousands of car enthusiasts out there? In my experience, a few hours tuition can allow a driver to extract more performance from their car than any host of tuning modifications, and is a far better safety aid than all the airbags and ABS systems put together.
Nicely put ...
Now, as far as the "dangerous hand shuffling" ...
There is a time and place for crossing your arms, commonly known as "rotational steering (???)", for example in an emergency.
Now, emergencies aside, the slightly slower method of push-pull can be used.
I'm honestly struggling to see how it can be conceived as dangerous, but I'm open to offers.
I can think of numerous reasons however, why I would not recommend crossed hands, I shall give just two, and perhaps let others make suggestions.
1. If you watch someone cross their hands, you will notice that they often get into a position where they're turning in one direction, but cannot easily turn in the other if need be, as their arms are in a knot ... Push-pull, you can turn either way instantly.
2. If the airbag goes off (and just occassionally this happens for no reason), I do not want my arms in the way. Airbags can dislocate shoulders so badly, that you can be left permenently disabled.
Martin
R_U_LOCAL said:
Is there no way that advanced driving can be portrayed in a more modern way, designed to attract the hundreds of thousands of car enthusiasts out there? In my experience, a few hours tuition can allow a driver to extract more performance from their car than any host of tuning modifications, and is a far better safety aid than all the airbags and ABS systems put together.
Great question Reg. This came up on a thread in SP&L. The problem is that "the government" (this is not government or nulabia bashing) have taken a position on driving. Ie it is bad. They have adopted a completely negative position. Speed kills, cars cause congestion, cars cause pollution, car driving is selfish. They have not adopoted anything positive. So it's very hard, even impossible to adopt and promote best practice. They cannot say (the quivalent of) "driving is bad, but it would be really great if everyone strived to be a good driver." They are not tenable positions to take.
That's not to say that the DSA (for example) have not improved the level of skills needed to pass the test - they have (that will be a contended statement). Just that the high level message is that if you drive you are taking part in a bad thing.
Bert
mph999 said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
good stuff
Nicely put ...
I agree, very well put Mr R U Local. A shame the original poster has not been back having started the thread.
The image of the IAM is something which (I believe as a 26yr old observer) is causing them problems. Our group is suffering at the moment with less delegates each course we do and I think it's for this reason. They've tried MaxPower link ups which have the right idea, but the result was young drivers would still go to the meetings and be confronted with elderly drivers advising them in an "old person's way". I don't wish this to sound ageist, far from it, but the problem is that the time needed to devote is (typically) available to OAPs more so than the younger observer. It's a huge stereotype, yes, but one that holds really true for my group (Mid-Kent).
I did start a topic on this a while ago...I'll dig it out...
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=154&t=211910
Ironically I said this in October 2005. Look how apt it is, even today perhaps.....
TonyHetherington said:
Mornin' all,
I did another observed run yesterday. Got up at 8am on a Sunday morning. Sat through 1 hour of incredibly tedious (even though I find the subject interesting) power point presentation about 'The System', with the presenter fielding some of the most depressingly rubbish questions from the audience (everyone gets too specific about situations sometimes, I think perhaps it's the environment they're in which does it).
Anyway...after the presentation, all the observers (approx 30) go into the side room where we have a small meeting, get the run sheets for whomever we will be observing that morning, and talk about any current points. Half the observers can't sit down. Half the observers can't stand. Some are a bit deaf, and some can't stand for too long (it's a small room).
Then, when called, all 30 observers walk out to the front of the hall where our names are called and we go and greet, and take out, the associate.
I am by far the youngest observer (24).
And here, I beleive, lies the crux of the problem. Now, please do not get me wrong - I am not trying to belittle the efforts of many, many people. That is far from my intention. It's just that it is this very image that turns many people away for whom the IAM could be so rewarding.
Then, the observers (some of whom are very genuine, wonderfully nice people who - on a personal level - are spot on), have their 'old people quirks'. This isn't an insult, just that 'thing' that all old people have. You know - you can tell they've experienced the world, don't quite 'get' modern stuff (as much as they are able to e-mail), and don't understand sports cars.
They then explain things in their own 'unique' elderly way.
By the very nature of how the IAM works...it's all done by volunteers...it's those who are retired who have the most time to give, and also keep up with the required learning.
Once again let me stress this is not a dig, just me creating thoughts in my head about why the IAM struggles to attract younger associates. There was a link-up with Max Power magazine about a year ago but, as far as I know, it didn't go too well. People enquired, but few took it up because they then saw the real IAM (past the Max Power advert).
So...the answer? Well, this is a difficult one. The IAM is run and founded on volunteers, and (as I said above) by the very nature it is those who are slightly older that have more time to give. It's a catch 22 situation.
Should the IAM be 'refreshed' ?
Should a new IAM be introduced for, say, <25yr olds? (not pass plus).
Should the IAM strictly do <25yr old courses?
Should the marketing be better placed at youngsters?
It's a difficult question and I don't claim to know the answer. But, I thought I would put it to those on this forum - what are your thoughts?
Thanks all
Tony
I did another observed run yesterday. Got up at 8am on a Sunday morning. Sat through 1 hour of incredibly tedious (even though I find the subject interesting) power point presentation about 'The System', with the presenter fielding some of the most depressingly rubbish questions from the audience (everyone gets too specific about situations sometimes, I think perhaps it's the environment they're in which does it).
Anyway...after the presentation, all the observers (approx 30) go into the side room where we have a small meeting, get the run sheets for whomever we will be observing that morning, and talk about any current points. Half the observers can't sit down. Half the observers can't stand. Some are a bit deaf, and some can't stand for too long (it's a small room).
Then, when called, all 30 observers walk out to the front of the hall where our names are called and we go and greet, and take out, the associate.
I am by far the youngest observer (24).
And here, I beleive, lies the crux of the problem. Now, please do not get me wrong - I am not trying to belittle the efforts of many, many people. That is far from my intention. It's just that it is this very image that turns many people away for whom the IAM could be so rewarding.
Then, the observers (some of whom are very genuine, wonderfully nice people who - on a personal level - are spot on), have their 'old people quirks'. This isn't an insult, just that 'thing' that all old people have. You know - you can tell they've experienced the world, don't quite 'get' modern stuff (as much as they are able to e-mail), and don't understand sports cars.
They then explain things in their own 'unique' elderly way.
By the very nature of how the IAM works...it's all done by volunteers...it's those who are retired who have the most time to give, and also keep up with the required learning.
Once again let me stress this is not a dig, just me creating thoughts in my head about why the IAM struggles to attract younger associates. There was a link-up with Max Power magazine about a year ago but, as far as I know, it didn't go too well. People enquired, but few took it up because they then saw the real IAM (past the Max Power advert).
So...the answer? Well, this is a difficult one. The IAM is run and founded on volunteers, and (as I said above) by the very nature it is those who are slightly older that have more time to give. It's a catch 22 situation.
Should the IAM be 'refreshed' ?
Should a new IAM be introduced for, say, <25yr olds? (not pass plus).
Should the IAM strictly do <25yr old courses?
Should the marketing be better placed at youngsters?
It's a difficult question and I don't claim to know the answer. But, I thought I would put it to those on this forum - what are your thoughts?
Thanks all
Tony
Edited by TonyHetherington on Thursday 15th March 13:32
stephen300o said:
How does this advanced driving stuff work if your've got a stutter or even mute?, seems to be more of a talking exercise than driving, and do you still have to do that dangerous hand shuffling? or can you steer normally?
I guess you are referring to the driving 'commentary'. Commentary is no longer required for the IAM test although other organisations may require it; I'm not sure.
However, someone who is mute or has a stutter will probably encounter the same problems with communication as they do in other situations.
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