Smooth running?
Discussion
Opinions very welcome as to how best to improve the running behaviour of my standard Griff 500. I replaced the worn, standard cam with an MC2. This has made the car less willing to drive at anything under 2000 revs without a little bit of shunting. It’s not major unless below 1500 revs. It pulls cleanly from very low revs and has produced very good figures on a rolling road (310bhp) so I’m confident it is set up well.
I guess I have 2 options:
1) replace the cam with something like the MC1, Stealth or back to the standard one; or
2) do something else to improve its manners
The first is easy but a bit depressing. The second would be great if I could be sure I wouldn’t be throwing more money at it without any real chance of success.
I will talk to the guys that look after my Griff but it would be helpful to have some feedback from others too. Many thanks.
I guess I have 2 options:
1) replace the cam with something like the MC1, Stealth or back to the standard one; or
2) do something else to improve its manners
The first is easy but a bit depressing. The second would be great if I could be sure I wouldn’t be throwing more money at it without any real chance of success.
I will talk to the guys that look after my Griff but it would be helpful to have some feedback from others too. Many thanks.
I'd say go for a mapped ignition set-up, this will very effectively 'fill' the holes in the torque curve and make it very drivable indeed, the thing to consider is most ignition only units are full-on units with the fuelling side turned off, so for a bit more cash you can become master of your own destiny and have full control of everything.
Matt
Matt
Thanks Matt
I've read on here about various systems (Omex, Emerald, MA chips, etc.) but TBH find the whole subject a bit confusing! If it makes any difference, the torque curve on my recent r/r print out looks very healthy and smooth. The issue I have is with driving at a constant speed, say through a 30 or 40 mph limit, when it starts to shunt a bit. The trouble is I am very sensitive to it now and it annoys me. When you consider 60 mph in 5th is 2000 revs it means on all roads except the motorway I can't get into 5th gear (honest) and I can only get into 3rd in a 40 mph limit or above.
Can re-mapping (with whatever system) actually tame a wild cam?
I've read on here about various systems (Omex, Emerald, MA chips, etc.) but TBH find the whole subject a bit confusing! If it makes any difference, the torque curve on my recent r/r print out looks very healthy and smooth. The issue I have is with driving at a constant speed, say through a 30 or 40 mph limit, when it starts to shunt a bit. The trouble is I am very sensitive to it now and it annoys me. When you consider 60 mph in 5th is 2000 revs it means on all roads except the motorway I can't get into 5th gear (honest) and I can only get into 3rd in a 40 mph limit or above.
Can re-mapping (with whatever system) actually tame a wild cam?
Well yes, the standard ignition system is more than a bit out of date, the injection system isn't much cop either, a modern ECU will make a car very driveable and give much more scope for further tuning and better diagnostics in the future.
One of the best places to research it all is the mega squirt website and practical performance car magazine
Matt
One of the best places to research it all is the mega squirt website and practical performance car magazine
Matt
I've looked through Dave Walker's site which is really helpful. Although no nearer knowing which system I want, at least I now have an idea how they work and what they do. The Megasquirt site is also a mine of info' but a DIY solution is definitely not for me. I need to get an idea of cost - I can imagine this will cost more than a cam swap but I can see the benefits.
Garry, I have priced up the Emerald and you are looking at £500 for the ecu and £375 for a new wiring loom then its the fitting cost and RR session. This is the route I am taking as I want to progreesively mod the engine.
If you are not going to do further mods to the engine then the Tornado chip would be the cheaper way. £350 ish for the chip and £250-400 ish for RR setup with Mark Adams. The Mark Adams RR session will be required each time you want to change the mapping which makes it costly long term if you want to mod your car.
If you are not going to do further mods to the engine then the Tornado chip would be the cheaper way. £350 ish for the chip and £250-400 ish for RR setup with Mark Adams. The Mark Adams RR session will be required each time you want to change the mapping which makes it costly long term if you want to mod your car.
350matt said:
I'd say go for a mapped ignition set-up, this will very effectively 'fill' the holes in the torque curve and make it very drivable indeed, the thing to consider is most ignition only units are full-on units with the fuelling side turned off, so for a bit more cash you can become master of your own destiny and have full control of everything.
Matt
Matt
Spot on thats the way forward if you intend to mod at a stage at a time
that one being the first imho and will smooth out your low rev running bluebottle said:
Garry, I have priced up the Emerald and you are looking at £500 for the ecu and £375 for a new wiring loom then its the fitting cost and RR session. This is the route I am taking as I want to progreesively mod the engine.
If you are not going to do further mods to the engine then the Tornado chip would be the cheaper way. £350 ish for the chip and £250-400 ish for RR setup with Mark Adams. The Mark Adams RR session will be required each time you want to change the mapping which makes it costly long term if you want to mod your car.
If you are not going to do further mods to the engine then the Tornado chip would be the cheaper way. £350 ish for the chip and £250-400 ish for RR setup with Mark Adams. The Mark Adams RR session will be required each time you want to change the mapping which makes it costly long term if you want to mod your car.
Thanks Hamish. It may be my lack of understanding but it seems to me you get so more for your money with the Emerald and similar solutions compared to the MA route, not just because future upgrades are more easily catered for but the Emerald/Omex etc provides total control over just about everything your engine does so by my reasoning it should be able to cope with pretty wild cams and still make road manners acceptable. The MA solution seems to be an optimization of the standard chip which if you're lucky/unlucky might already be optimized - i.e. the end result might be little or no better than what you already have. Does that make sense?
GarryM said:
Thanks Hamish. It may be my lack of understanding but it seems to me you get so more for your money with the Emerald and similar solutions compared to the MA route, not just because future upgrades are more easily catered for but the Emerald/Omex etc provides total control over just about everything your engine does so by my reasoning it should be able to cope with pretty wild cams and still make road manners acceptable. The MA solution seems to be an optimization of the standard chip which if you're lucky/unlucky might already be optimized - i.e. the end result might be little or no better than what you already have. Does that make sense?
The potential gains with a fully mapable ignition and fueling which you can change yourself with a laptop (so no need for RR session when trying out different maps) make these aftermarket ecu's one of the best mods you can do to a Griff. You could also run a alternative Road or Track mapping just by plugging in the laptop - hows that for best of both worlds
The Omex ecu setup will cost you about £500 more then the Emerald and from what i can see there is very little to choose between them.
Edited by bluebottle on Wednesday 21st March 11:29
In case you have not seen it, I think you should consider:
From www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=369916&f=8&h=0
If in any doubt about the desirability of mapped ignition.
Dave
From www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=369916&f=8&h=0
Graham said:
the last time we mapped of that ecu, going from a standard ignition map to tweeking it we found 30bhp on the top of a tuned 5ltr motor!!!! something we wouldnt have been able to do with fuel mapping only... I was gob smacked that ignition could make such a difference.
If in any doubt about the desirability of mapped ignition.
Dave
GarryM said:
Opinions very welcome as to how best to improve the running behaviour of my standard Griff 500.
Hi Garry,
Try a new Stepper Motore rather than just cleaning the old one, like you I have a MC2 and Richard recently replaced the Stepper Motor due to Tick Over Hunting and now it is a completely different drive at low revs.
Which replacement ECU provides the best upgrade path?
I want a system that allows me to add the new ECU without changing the original injection/ignition system. Then as time/funds/wife permits, gradually replace both systems to end up with individual throttle bodies, sequential injection, and distibutorless ignition.
So which systems have the flexability to cope with that without me having to replace the new ECU, just allowing me to turn on the features and remap or better still self map from sensors?
I want a system that allows me to add the new ECU without changing the original injection/ignition system. Then as time/funds/wife permits, gradually replace both systems to end up with individual throttle bodies, sequential injection, and distibutorless ignition.
So which systems have the flexability to cope with that without me having to replace the new ECU, just allowing me to turn on the features and remap or better still self map from sensors?
jwt63 said:
GarryM said:
Opinions very welcome as to how best to improve the running behaviour of my standard Griff 500.
Hi Garry,
Try a new Stepper Motore rather than just cleaning the old one, like you I have a MC2 and Richard recently replaced the Stepper Motor due to Tick Over Hunting and now it is a completely different drive at low revs.
Hi John,
Thanks. TBH I can't believe it's anything to do with the stepper motor but I guess that's an easy thing to check out. How low will yours go? Will it cruise below 2000 revs without the odd lurch and stutter? Driving through a 30mph limit in 4th gear was quite possible with my old cam (even if I might normally choose to be in 3rd) but with this one I have to be in 2nd gear to get it smooth. We all have different tolerance levels I suppose and I am a bit fussy!
GarryM said:
jwt63 said:
GarryM said:
Opinions very welcome as to how best to improve the running behaviour of my standard Griff 500.
Hi Garry,
Try a new Stepper Motore rather than just cleaning the old one, like you I have a MC2 and Richard recently replaced the Stepper Motor due to Tick Over Hunting and now it is a completely different drive at low revs.
Hi John,
Thanks. TBH I can't believe it's anything to do with the stepper motor but I guess that's an easy thing to check out. How low will yours go? Will it cruise below 2000 revs without the odd lurch and stutter? Driving through a 30mph limit in 4th gear was quite possible with my old cam (even if I might normally choose to be in 3rd) but with this one I have to be in 2nd gear to get it smooth. We all have different tolerance levels I suppose and I am a bit fussy!
30mph in 4th! Never managed that with the standard Cam
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