Too many errors on an FPN? (Not Speeding!)
Discussion
I was heading "up North" at the weekend and spent a good half hour talking to one of South Yorkshire's "finest" while he filled out a Fixed Penalty Notice by the side of the A1. My heinous crime had been to cross the hatchings which demarquate the filter road from the M18 onto the A1 (locally known as the Wadworth Interchange).
I was (and still am) perfectly happy to admit to crossing the hatchings on the sliproad. I was following a slow-moving lorry towing a trailer, it was late evening with no other traffic coming up behind me (I had a good look first) and I didn't fancy behing boxed in behind the truck while trying to filter onto a very busy dual carriageway in a left-hand drive car. Basically, I decided it was safer to pass the lorry and give myself room than try to have eyes in the back aswell as the front of my head.
400m after joining the A1 I had blues and twos behind me, so I pulled over expecting a telling-off but not much more - I hadn't even inconvenienced anyone, let alone endangered them. But the single trafpol, who I presume from the conversation had been sitting in a "dead" area on the roundabout at the top of the sliproad, was determined to give me an FPN (he kindly offered to report me for dangerous driving as an alternative...)
Slightly disgruntled, I took the slip and finished my journey. But when I checked the FPN the next day, I was a bit confused. Perhaps someone on here can help?
1. Firstly, he has written an Offence Code of 17D - Use Verge Motorway. Is this an internal code? It doesn't follow the normal format (e.g. SP30, DD10), so what exactly am I being prosecuted for?
2. To me, the offence he's written sounds like I undertook using the hard shoulder - which I didn't do, and never would. I'm not sure my insurance company would approve! During our chat, he mentioned crossing a solid white line which is a moving traffic offence, and I expected an offence along these lines (or failing to comply with a road sign). Given that he spent a good five minutes looking through his Aide Memoire for traffic offence codes, how could he have come up with this, and is it valid? Or was he just hunting for something because he realised he'd made a boo-boo?
3. He's written the location as being the "M18/A1 NBC Slip J35 Wadworth". As far as I can establish, this isn't motorway - it's the A1 slip road. If it was the M18 exit slip, it should be noted as J2.
4. When I got home and checked my Highway Code (1999, 11th impression 2003), Rule 109 says "If the area is bordered by a solid white line, you should not enter it except in an emergency. [...] If the area is on a motorway and consists of a triangle bounded by continuous white lines marked by chevrons, you MUST NOT enter it except in an emergency." I believe the latter refers to the areas at the very beginning/end of motorway slip roads, not the areas of red/white chequered hatching separating two lanes of traffic, and therefore I broke a "should not" rule, not a "Must not".
5. If you accept that it is still motorway (which I'd question), Rule 233 (Joining the Motorway) says "... you should [...] not cross solid white lines that separate lanes". Again, a "should not", not a "Must Not".
Whilst I was perfectly happy to accept a telling-off, and was very polite, civil and contrite at the scene, explaining my rationale clearly, I am a bit miffed that he deemed it necessary to take it this far. Has he made enough errors to invalidate the FPN?
As I said, he was on his own, wasn't in full uniform when he approached my car (is this just an urban myth?), never cautioned me and has no video evidence. I read on Pepipoo that accepting an FPN is admitting your guilt (unlike an NIP), but I didn't have enough information to hand at the scene to challenge it so I was naturally unwilling to risk a court appearance and greater penalty!
I know it's only 3 points / £60 fine, but I'd appreciate some informed opinion and advice. I hate rolling over for the sake of it!
Cheers
Mark
I was (and still am) perfectly happy to admit to crossing the hatchings on the sliproad. I was following a slow-moving lorry towing a trailer, it was late evening with no other traffic coming up behind me (I had a good look first) and I didn't fancy behing boxed in behind the truck while trying to filter onto a very busy dual carriageway in a left-hand drive car. Basically, I decided it was safer to pass the lorry and give myself room than try to have eyes in the back aswell as the front of my head.
400m after joining the A1 I had blues and twos behind me, so I pulled over expecting a telling-off but not much more - I hadn't even inconvenienced anyone, let alone endangered them. But the single trafpol, who I presume from the conversation had been sitting in a "dead" area on the roundabout at the top of the sliproad, was determined to give me an FPN (he kindly offered to report me for dangerous driving as an alternative...)
Slightly disgruntled, I took the slip and finished my journey. But when I checked the FPN the next day, I was a bit confused. Perhaps someone on here can help?
1. Firstly, he has written an Offence Code of 17D - Use Verge Motorway. Is this an internal code? It doesn't follow the normal format (e.g. SP30, DD10), so what exactly am I being prosecuted for?
2. To me, the offence he's written sounds like I undertook using the hard shoulder - which I didn't do, and never would. I'm not sure my insurance company would approve! During our chat, he mentioned crossing a solid white line which is a moving traffic offence, and I expected an offence along these lines (or failing to comply with a road sign). Given that he spent a good five minutes looking through his Aide Memoire for traffic offence codes, how could he have come up with this, and is it valid? Or was he just hunting for something because he realised he'd made a boo-boo?
3. He's written the location as being the "M18/A1 NBC Slip J35 Wadworth". As far as I can establish, this isn't motorway - it's the A1 slip road. If it was the M18 exit slip, it should be noted as J2.
4. When I got home and checked my Highway Code (1999, 11th impression 2003), Rule 109 says "If the area is bordered by a solid white line, you should not enter it except in an emergency. [...] If the area is on a motorway and consists of a triangle bounded by continuous white lines marked by chevrons, you MUST NOT enter it except in an emergency." I believe the latter refers to the areas at the very beginning/end of motorway slip roads, not the areas of red/white chequered hatching separating two lanes of traffic, and therefore I broke a "should not" rule, not a "Must not".
5. If you accept that it is still motorway (which I'd question), Rule 233 (Joining the Motorway) says "... you should [...] not cross solid white lines that separate lanes". Again, a "should not", not a "Must Not".
Whilst I was perfectly happy to accept a telling-off, and was very polite, civil and contrite at the scene, explaining my rationale clearly, I am a bit miffed that he deemed it necessary to take it this far. Has he made enough errors to invalidate the FPN?
As I said, he was on his own, wasn't in full uniform when he approached my car (is this just an urban myth?), never cautioned me and has no video evidence. I read on Pepipoo that accepting an FPN is admitting your guilt (unlike an NIP), but I didn't have enough information to hand at the scene to challenge it so I was naturally unwilling to risk a court appearance and greater penalty!
I know it's only 3 points / £60 fine, but I'd appreciate some informed opinion and advice. I hate rolling over for the sake of it!
Cheers
Mark
hallmark said:
I was heading "up North" at the weekend and spent a good half hour talking to one of South Yorkshire's "finest" while he filled out a Fixed Penalty Notice by the side of the A1. My heinous crime had been to cross the hatchings which demarquate the filter road from the M18 onto the A1 (locally known as the Wadworth Interchange).
I was (and still am) perfectly happy to admit to crossing the hatchings on the sliproad. I was following a slow-moving lorry towing a trailer, it was late evening with no other traffic coming up behind me (I had a good look first) and I didn't fancy behing boxed in behind the truck while trying to filter onto a very busy dual carriageway in a left-hand drive car. Basically, I decided it was safer to pass the lorry and give myself room than try to have eyes in the back aswell as the front of my head.
400m after joining the A1 I had blues and twos behind me, so I pulled over expecting a telling-off but not much more - I hadn't even inconvenienced anyone, let alone endangered them. But the single trafpol, who I presume from the conversation had been sitting in a "dead" area on the roundabout at the top of the sliproad, was determined to give me an FPN (he kindly offered to report me for dangerous driving as an alternative...)
Slightly disgruntled, I took the slip and finished my journey. But when I checked the FPN the next day, I was a bit confused. Perhaps someone on here can help?
1. Firstly, he has written an Offence Code of 17D - Use Verge Motorway. Is this an internal code? It doesn't follow the normal format (e.g. SP30, DD10), so what exactly am I being prosecuted for?
2. To me, the offence he's written sounds like I undertook using the hard shoulder - which I didn't do, and never would. I'm not sure my insurance company would approve! During our chat, he mentioned crossing a solid white line which is a moving traffic offence, and I expected an offence along these lines (or failing to comply with a road sign). Given that he spent a good five minutes looking through his Aide Memoire for traffic offence codes, how could he have come up with this, and is it valid? Or was he just hunting for something because he realised he'd made a boo-boo?
3. He's written the location as being the "M18/A1 NBC Slip J35 Wadworth". As far as I can establish, this isn't motorway - it's the A1 slip road. If it was the M18 exit slip, it should be noted as J2.
4. When I got home and checked my Highway Code (1999, 11th impression 2003), Rule 109 says "If the area is bordered by a solid white line, you should not enter it except in an emergency. [...] If the area is on a motorway and consists of a triangle bounded by continuous white lines marked by chevrons, you MUST NOT enter it except in an emergency." I believe the latter refers to the areas at the very beginning/end of motorway slip roads, not the areas of red/white chequered hatching separating two lanes of traffic, and therefore I broke a "should not" rule, not a "Must not".
5. If you accept that it is still motorway (which I'd question), Rule 233 (Joining the Motorway) says "... you should [...] not cross solid white lines that separate lanes". Again, a "should not", not a "Must Not".
Whilst I was perfectly happy to accept a telling-off, and was very polite, civil and contrite at the scene, explaining my rationale clearly, I am a bit miffed that he deemed it necessary to take it this far. Has he made enough errors to invalidate the FPN?
As I said, he was on his own, wasn't in full uniform when he approached my car (is this just an urban myth?), never cautioned me and has no video evidence. I read on Pepipoo that accepting an FPN is admitting your guilt (unlike an NIP), but I didn't have enough information to hand at the scene to challenge it so I was naturally unwilling to risk a court appearance and greater penalty!
I know it's only 3 points / £60 fine, but I'd appreciate some informed opinion and advice. I hate rolling over for the sake of it!
Cheers
Mark
I was (and still am) perfectly happy to admit to crossing the hatchings on the sliproad. I was following a slow-moving lorry towing a trailer, it was late evening with no other traffic coming up behind me (I had a good look first) and I didn't fancy behing boxed in behind the truck while trying to filter onto a very busy dual carriageway in a left-hand drive car. Basically, I decided it was safer to pass the lorry and give myself room than try to have eyes in the back aswell as the front of my head.
400m after joining the A1 I had blues and twos behind me, so I pulled over expecting a telling-off but not much more - I hadn't even inconvenienced anyone, let alone endangered them. But the single trafpol, who I presume from the conversation had been sitting in a "dead" area on the roundabout at the top of the sliproad, was determined to give me an FPN (he kindly offered to report me for dangerous driving as an alternative...)
Slightly disgruntled, I took the slip and finished my journey. But when I checked the FPN the next day, I was a bit confused. Perhaps someone on here can help?
1. Firstly, he has written an Offence Code of 17D - Use Verge Motorway. Is this an internal code? It doesn't follow the normal format (e.g. SP30, DD10), so what exactly am I being prosecuted for?
2. To me, the offence he's written sounds like I undertook using the hard shoulder - which I didn't do, and never would. I'm not sure my insurance company would approve! During our chat, he mentioned crossing a solid white line which is a moving traffic offence, and I expected an offence along these lines (or failing to comply with a road sign). Given that he spent a good five minutes looking through his Aide Memoire for traffic offence codes, how could he have come up with this, and is it valid? Or was he just hunting for something because he realised he'd made a boo-boo?
3. He's written the location as being the "M18/A1 NBC Slip J35 Wadworth". As far as I can establish, this isn't motorway - it's the A1 slip road. If it was the M18 exit slip, it should be noted as J2.
4. When I got home and checked my Highway Code (1999, 11th impression 2003), Rule 109 says "If the area is bordered by a solid white line, you should not enter it except in an emergency. [...] If the area is on a motorway and consists of a triangle bounded by continuous white lines marked by chevrons, you MUST NOT enter it except in an emergency." I believe the latter refers to the areas at the very beginning/end of motorway slip roads, not the areas of red/white chequered hatching separating two lanes of traffic, and therefore I broke a "should not" rule, not a "Must not".
5. If you accept that it is still motorway (which I'd question), Rule 233 (Joining the Motorway) says "... you should [...] not cross solid white lines that separate lanes". Again, a "should not", not a "Must Not".
Whilst I was perfectly happy to accept a telling-off, and was very polite, civil and contrite at the scene, explaining my rationale clearly, I am a bit miffed that he deemed it necessary to take it this far. Has he made enough errors to invalidate the FPN?
As I said, he was on his own, wasn't in full uniform when he approached my car (is this just an urban myth?), never cautioned me and has no video evidence. I read on Pepipoo that accepting an FPN is admitting your guilt (unlike an NIP), but I didn't have enough information to hand at the scene to challenge it so I was naturally unwilling to risk a court appearance and greater penalty!
I know it's only 3 points / £60 fine, but I'd appreciate some informed opinion and advice. I hate rolling over for the sake of it!
Cheers
Mark
1) It is an internal code and not the final code as will appear on the driving license.
2) Did you undertake the lorry using the hatchings?? If you did then you may have crossed a single white line and as such its 3 points and potentially DD. With regards to the book, we use them as we cant always remember the specific wordings of every offence. Possibly he was looking to see if it was endorsable to use a hatched area and came to the other offence of crossing a wite line as an alternative if he saw you do this.
3) Road location i cant help with as i dont know the place. But if it was an on slip then the hatched area could well be the motorway and bear in mind it can cover the duration of the offence so it may have started A1 but continued onto the M18.
4) Highway code doesnt mean a great deal here if there is a specific offence. It can howver be used against you for careless or dangerous. The area you describe could fall into the end of a slip road.
5)Again, specfic offence in law and not highway code. A solid white line is a solid white line.
As i see it there may be no errors on the ticket. Without knowing the internal code i cant tell. What was the wording next to the offence code as there should be a breif wording.
How do you mean full uniform??? as you just need to be IN uniform or easily recognisable as a police officer. Was it a marked car??
If you undertook a lorry crossing the hatched areas and crossing white lines then if that is on video then you could be looking at dangerous driving. You could have hung back a tad and waited.
Thanks, Slider.
It wasn't an undertake - in order to overtake the lorry, I crossed over a hatched area enclosed by solid white lines. Stupid, in hindsight, but at the time I preferred to do this than battle at the bottom of the slip road to get onto the A1.
You can get a brilliant view of the junction on Google Earth if you use the co-ordinates 53 28' 47"N 1 09' 00"W - if you zoom in, you can even see a stationary Police car parked up on the roundabout, looking down the sliproad!
In case you can't see Google Earth, I had left the M18, travelled down the slip road to the end and used the left filter lane to continue onto the A1. The left filter lane was created by putting down a couple of hundred metres of red and white hatched area, about a metre wide, in the middle of the road. It was this that I crossed in order to move from Lane 1 into Lane 2.
To try and clarify further, the only offence I committed was to cross over a hatched area in order to execute an otherwise perfectly safe and legitimate overtake. Nothing else about it was, or could even have been construed as dangerous. I was well onto the down ramp of the slip road (i.e. well past the end of the M18 and past the roundabout exit for other traffic to join the slip road), and was completely aware that there was no-one else behind me, otherwise I'd have stayed put - as I said, being in a LHD car I have to take extra precautions to make sure it's safe to pull out at all times.
I did argue that I was slightly confused, because I know it's legal to cross a hatched area if the lines are broken (it's just not recommended), but I know that's no defence. In any case, the markings are entirely different to those referred to in Rule 109, describing the triangular chevron markings at the moment where the slip road joins the main carriageway.
I don't blame the PC for needing to look it up in his book, but I was suprised he came up with "Using Verge Motorway" (his exact written words next to the Offence Code). Firstly, I disagree that it's a motorway (the A1 at that point is merely Dual Carriageway), and secondly, it does make it sound like I undertook - which I definitely didn't!
By "full uniform" I was referring to the possible myth that a policeman had to be wearing his hat if he's due to arrest you. I think you answered that one, though!
Cheers
It wasn't an undertake - in order to overtake the lorry, I crossed over a hatched area enclosed by solid white lines. Stupid, in hindsight, but at the time I preferred to do this than battle at the bottom of the slip road to get onto the A1.
You can get a brilliant view of the junction on Google Earth if you use the co-ordinates 53 28' 47"N 1 09' 00"W - if you zoom in, you can even see a stationary Police car parked up on the roundabout, looking down the sliproad!
In case you can't see Google Earth, I had left the M18, travelled down the slip road to the end and used the left filter lane to continue onto the A1. The left filter lane was created by putting down a couple of hundred metres of red and white hatched area, about a metre wide, in the middle of the road. It was this that I crossed in order to move from Lane 1 into Lane 2.
To try and clarify further, the only offence I committed was to cross over a hatched area in order to execute an otherwise perfectly safe and legitimate overtake. Nothing else about it was, or could even have been construed as dangerous. I was well onto the down ramp of the slip road (i.e. well past the end of the M18 and past the roundabout exit for other traffic to join the slip road), and was completely aware that there was no-one else behind me, otherwise I'd have stayed put - as I said, being in a LHD car I have to take extra precautions to make sure it's safe to pull out at all times.
I did argue that I was slightly confused, because I know it's legal to cross a hatched area if the lines are broken (it's just not recommended), but I know that's no defence. In any case, the markings are entirely different to those referred to in Rule 109, describing the triangular chevron markings at the moment where the slip road joins the main carriageway.
I don't blame the PC for needing to look it up in his book, but I was suprised he came up with "Using Verge Motorway" (his exact written words next to the Offence Code). Firstly, I disagree that it's a motorway (the A1 at that point is merely Dual Carriageway), and secondly, it does make it sound like I undertook - which I definitely didn't!
By "full uniform" I was referring to the possible myth that a policeman had to be wearing his hat if he's due to arrest you. I think you answered that one, though!
Cheers
You chanced a blag, got caught, and are now trying to get out of it. From what you've described, I think the officer is doing you a favour by pointing out that such behaviour isn't really acceptable.
What was wrong with just slowing down a little and letting the lorry pull away, before you joined the carriageway?
Or joining, and waiting for a gap to pull out and overtake?
Sounds to me like you were impatient and couldn't be bothered waiting. Sorry.
What was wrong with just slowing down a little and letting the lorry pull away, before you joined the carriageway?
Or joining, and waiting for a gap to pull out and overtake?
Sounds to me like you were impatient and couldn't be bothered waiting. Sorry.
regardless of what the ticket says, according to the google image there are only unbroken white lines around the chevrons, and not broken ones. (assuming im looking at it right).
im sorry to say that if this is the case then, despite common sense, it looks like you may have to swallow this one. granted your way may have been safer but traffic officers are very black/white and dont tend to offer discretion which is what landed you in this pickle. by crossing the unbroken line and into the chevrons you apparently did commit an offence and this could be quite tricky for you. mags can write off SOME problems with tickets not being filled out incorrectly and reading between the lines but peppipoo will be your resort here.
im sorry to say that if this is the case then, despite common sense, it looks like you may have to swallow this one. granted your way may have been safer but traffic officers are very black/white and dont tend to offer discretion which is what landed you in this pickle. by crossing the unbroken line and into the chevrons you apparently did commit an offence and this could be quite tricky for you. mags can write off SOME problems with tickets not being filled out incorrectly and reading between the lines but peppipoo will be your resort here.
From the Google Earth image it seems to me that when on a motorway, A1(M), slip road youe crossed 2 solid white lines (with red markings between them) in order to overtake another vehicle. Given that the other vehicle was a truck travelling under the speed limit, and given the traffic conditions as stated, I may well have done the same. However, it does seem to me that you are guilty of a technical motoring offence even if oyur driving was safe. Whether there is a let out in how the offence is described I will leave to the more knowledgeable to decide.
Philbes said:
From the Google Earth image it seems to me that when on a motorway, A1(M), slip road youe crossed 2 solid white lines (with red markings between them) in order to overtake another vehicle. Given that the other vehicle was a truck travelling under the speed limit, and given the traffic conditions as stated, I may well have done the same. However, it does seem to me that you are guilty of a technical motoring offence even if oyur driving was safe. Whether there is a let out in how the offence is described I will leave to the more knowledgeable to decide.
If we were able to avoid motoring offences by claiming it was “safe” then there would be a free for all. Nobody would take any notice of any road rule since if they didn’t actually cause an accident they could claim it was safe.
Edited by herewego on Thursday 5th April 09:18
Thanks for all the replies.
I'm happy to accept that I took a chance, with the best of intentions, and happened to get caught for it.
What are your views on the description of the offence though? As Slider initially presumed earlier on, it makes it sound like I undertook using the motorway verge. I'm worried I'll get hammered when it comes to renewing my insurance.
Surely there's a more appropriate offence description?
I'm happy to accept that I took a chance, with the best of intentions, and happened to get caught for it.
What are your views on the description of the offence though? As Slider initially presumed earlier on, it makes it sound like I undertook using the motorway verge. I'm worried I'll get hammered when it comes to renewing my insurance.
Surely there's a more appropriate offence description?
hallmark said:
Thanks for all the replies.
I'm happy to accept that I took a chance, with the best of intentions, and happened to get caught for it.
What are your views on the description of the offence though? As Slider initially presumed earlier on, it makes it sound like I undertook using the motorway verge. I'm worried I'll get hammered when it comes to renewing my insurance.
Surely there's a more appropriate offence description?
I'm happy to accept that I took a chance, with the best of intentions, and happened to get caught for it.
What are your views on the description of the offence though? As Slider initially presumed earlier on, it makes it sound like I undertook using the motorway verge. I'm worried I'll get hammered when it comes to renewing my insurance.
Surely there's a more appropriate offence description?
I think "the verge" is defined as any part of the motorway which is not a running lane or hard shoulder.
Where is the Motorway delimiter sign? Before you crossed the lines or afterwards?
It's interesting that many on SP&L feel that 'speeding' can be 'safe' provided certain conditions are met, but that crossing a solid white line is unsafe ... even if similar conditions apply. Also that it's OK to challenge speeding tickets, but not other types (except for parking).
Streaky
It's interesting that many on SP&L feel that 'speeding' can be 'safe' provided certain conditions are met, but that crossing a solid white line is unsafe ... even if similar conditions apply. Also that it's OK to challenge speeding tickets, but not other types (except for parking).
Streaky
streaky said:
Where is the Motorway delimiter sign? Before you crossed the lines or afterwards?
It's interesting that many on SP&L feel that 'speeding' can be 'safe' provided certain conditions are met, but that crossing a solid white line is unsafe ... even if similar conditions apply. Also that it's OK to challenge speeding tickets, but not other types (except for parking).
Streaky
It's interesting that many on SP&L feel that 'speeding' can be 'safe' provided certain conditions are met, but that crossing a solid white line is unsafe ... even if similar conditions apply. Also that it's OK to challenge speeding tickets, but not other types (except for parking).
Streaky
Whilst it may be safe to speed, to go through a red traffic light junction, to cross solid white lines, to cross a level crossing when red lights are on, you can't without risking prosecution.
vonhosen said:
streaky said:
Where is the Motorway delimiter sign? Before you crossed the lines or afterwards?
It's interesting that many on SP&L feel that 'speeding' can be 'safe' provided certain conditions are met, but that crossing a solid white line is unsafe ... even if similar conditions apply. Also that it's OK to challenge speeding tickets, but not other types (except for parking).
Streaky
It's interesting that many on SP&L feel that 'speeding' can be 'safe' provided certain conditions are met, but that crossing a solid white line is unsafe ... even if similar conditions apply. Also that it's OK to challenge speeding tickets, but not other types (except for parking).
Streaky
Whilst it may be safe to speed, to go through a red traffic light junction, to cross solid white lines, to cross a level crossing when red lights are on, you can't without risking prosecution.
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