Do we care if Ducati leave WSB - holding it to ransom
Discussion
All ths cock about they will leave unless they get the 1200 capacity for twins finally sanctioned.
When the Japs are against it. From reading all the MCN'sthis year the Jap teams are saying it is BALLS the 999 is down by the 20bhp Ducati claim - look at Lavilla in BSB on Monday - nothing wrong with th stomp there.
Yes they are allowed to run more radical tuning in the twins than the 4's to get the similar performance and this obviuosly cost - you don't think the Jap manufacturers are through cash at this!
The Jap crew chief say 1100 woul be about right it running to the same tuning rules as the 4's but that the 1200 is just plan ridiculous.
Their bike is even called the 1098 for christ sake so where the 1200 rule?
Alos as Ducati only make about 5k bike per year they can (under current rules ) homologate only 150 bikes to the near race spec they have to - these can be real crazy machine - not really bearing that much in common with the similar looking 1098's.
They should just back off or leave or take an 1100cc limit. They have MotoGP if they want to save some cash.
When the Japs are against it. From reading all the MCN'sthis year the Jap teams are saying it is BALLS the 999 is down by the 20bhp Ducati claim - look at Lavilla in BSB on Monday - nothing wrong with th stomp there.
Yes they are allowed to run more radical tuning in the twins than the 4's to get the similar performance and this obviuosly cost - you don't think the Jap manufacturers are through cash at this!
The Jap crew chief say 1100 woul be about right it running to the same tuning rules as the 4's but that the 1200 is just plan ridiculous.
Their bike is even called the 1098 for christ sake so where the 1200 rule?
Alos as Ducati only make about 5k bike per year they can (under current rules ) homologate only 150 bikes to the near race spec they have to - these can be real crazy machine - not really bearing that much in common with the similar looking 1098's.
They should just back off or leave or take an 1100cc limit. They have MotoGP if they want to save some cash.
I don't care if they leave WSBK or not. Ducati are often said to be the only manufacturer that sells bikes on their racing success, so I think it's the governing body who can hold them to ransom. They don't compete they don't sell bikes. (excluding MotoGP based activities). If they want to compete in WSBK they need to abide by the rules, not get the rules changed to suit them every few years.
If they get allowed to run 1200cc bikes they will then have an unfair advantage against the 1000cc bikes and you'll get the same thing happen that occurred when it was the last years of the 750cc 4cly years. All the other major manufacturers leaving and ruining WBSK.
There really needs to be a standard engine class rule. 1000cc 4cyl only and no other, then there will be no arguments.
Anyway why are Ducati complaining of having a disadvantage. Have they forgotten who won the riders title last year already and (apart from his crash at Donington) who is still looking like the fastest rider out there.......isn't it some fellow on a red bike?
Get the plodder Lanzi off the bike and put Hodgson on it. Then they will have less to complain about.
If they get allowed to run 1200cc bikes they will then have an unfair advantage against the 1000cc bikes and you'll get the same thing happen that occurred when it was the last years of the 750cc 4cly years. All the other major manufacturers leaving and ruining WBSK.
There really needs to be a standard engine class rule. 1000cc 4cyl only and no other, then there will be no arguments.
Anyway why are Ducati complaining of having a disadvantage. Have they forgotten who won the riders title last year already and (apart from his crash at Donington) who is still looking like the fastest rider out there.......isn't it some fellow on a red bike?
Get the plodder Lanzi off the bike and put Hodgson on it. Then they will have less to complain about.
You are partly on track with this - but the main point is an WSB or BSB are Full spec RAce machines with VERY expensive internals to higher spec interms of allowed cam timing and vales vs the 4 - this costs. To do to the same mechanical race limitaions as the 1200 they are saying they need 1200 cc. The Jap manufacturers - KNOW how much the Ducatis make - simple maths and know that 1200 is WAY too much.
All having 4 is not right - maybe air resistors - but manuafacturers hate that as it kills development.
They need to cave in to the consensus on 1100 and to same spec as the 4's, 3's etc or yes just leave. There place will be quickly be filled.
Look at Aprillia - they hav erealised you just need a V4 Thou and that is what they are devoloping for the road and 2008 WSB.
All having 4 is not right - maybe air resistors - but manuafacturers hate that as it kills development.
They need to cave in to the consensus on 1100 and to same spec as the 4's, 3's etc or yes just leave. There place will be quickly be filled.
Look at Aprillia - they hav erealised you just need a V4 Thou and that is what they are devoloping for the road and 2008 WSB.
I’m not necessarily in favour of the rules being changed just to suit Ducati but I think it would be a great loss to motorcycling as a whole if the rules were not adjusted to enable engine configurations other then in-line fours to be competitive. In the same way as it has been suggested that if the rules currently favour 4s then Ducati should make a 4, if the rules favour twins then why do the Japs not make twins?
Moto GP bikes are so divorced from real world motorcycling that what happens on the track has little to no impact on what happens in the showroom. With WSB and BSB there is a much greater correlation between race success and the showroom. This is true for the Jap manufacturers as well as Ducati. In fact, I doubt Suzuki would have ever given us the TL1000, SV1000 and SV650 bikes were it not for the success of Ducati in Superbikes. Likewise, I doubt we would currently have a viable company in Aprilia were it not for Ducatis success. I for one would not want to see all manufacturers producing the same engine layout on their bikes just because it’s the only layout that has a chance of wining a race series.
I think we need rules that will let many different configurations and many different manufacturers be competitive. Unfortunately, I don’t have the answer as to how to achieve that.
Moto GP bikes are so divorced from real world motorcycling that what happens on the track has little to no impact on what happens in the showroom. With WSB and BSB there is a much greater correlation between race success and the showroom. This is true for the Jap manufacturers as well as Ducati. In fact, I doubt Suzuki would have ever given us the TL1000, SV1000 and SV650 bikes were it not for the success of Ducati in Superbikes. Likewise, I doubt we would currently have a viable company in Aprilia were it not for Ducatis success. I for one would not want to see all manufacturers producing the same engine layout on their bikes just because it’s the only layout that has a chance of wining a race series.
I think we need rules that will let many different configurations and many different manufacturers be competitive. Unfortunately, I don’t have the answer as to how to achieve that.
a.g. said:
Cant imagine Ferrari wanting to run 5 cylinders in F1 and demanding a capacity increase to suit.
Actually I seem to recall that Ferrari had the hump when the FIA said no more V12's in F1 back in the late 90's as this was as much a Ferrari tradition as v-twins are with Ducati.
In 1997 John kocinski won the wsb championship on a 750cc 4 cylinder Honda against 1000cc ducati's.. The previous season he failed to win the championship on a 1000cc ducati. Just because Ducati have won most of the recent championships against 750 fours does not mean they had a great advantage.. has anyone considerd that they might of had the best riders? Foggy being one
So they had a 250cc "advantage" then to compensate for their lack of cylinders... a 200cc proposed "advantage" now seems more than fair to me.
forgot to mention,Haga came close to winning the championship on the R7 yamaha 750 in 2000 but crashes and a drugs ban probably cost him it... With the right rider the fours were more than capable of winning!
So they had a 250cc "advantage" then to compensate for their lack of cylinders... a 200cc proposed "advantage" now seems more than fair to me.
forgot to mention,Haga came close to winning the championship on the R7 yamaha 750 in 2000 but crashes and a drugs ban probably cost him it... With the right rider the fours were more than capable of winning!
Edited by JS99 on Thursday 12th April 18:08
Edited by JS99 on Thursday 12th April 18:09
Edited by JS99 on Thursday 12th April 18:17
I say call their bluff. They wont go. Their bikes sell mainly on the their success in WSB, more so than MotoGP no question because the public still sees a tangible link between what they see Troy-the-Boy on and the bike in the showroom.
They need WSB more than WSB needs them. WSB should seize this period of interest from the Japs and tell Ducati to piss off if they want to.
The fly in the ointment for this plan is the amount of italians in the governing body and the popularity of the Italian rounds of the series. Which would surely diminish if they left.
I wouldnt be sorry to see the back of the whinging bastards.
They need WSB more than WSB needs them. WSB should seize this period of interest from the Japs and tell Ducati to piss off if they want to.
The fly in the ointment for this plan is the amount of italians in the governing body and the popularity of the Italian rounds of the series. Which would surely diminish if they left.
I wouldnt be sorry to see the back of the whinging bastards.
308mate said:
I say call their bluff. They wont go.
Maybe not but they may consider countering with plan 'B' which 'might' be that the (soon to become a production bike) Desmosedici RR, which will easily produce more than 200hp (in motoGP they were putting out around 260hp) would actually qualify for the series.
This may not maintain the twin-cylinder heritage but it should be up to the 'challenge'. If this were the case then I think that WSBK organisers would offer a 'compromise' of an increase to 1100cc.
If so it would be 'fortunate' for Ducati that their new bike (the 1098) will have had a year of development and that they 'suddenly' find themselves not needing to spend even more in developing a 1200cc version.......
Edited by catso on Thursday 12th April 18:51
they should just build a V4,its not like they cant develop one, a 1000 V4 would be more than a match for the inlines,probably better in fact,how many people would be that bothered if they bought a new Ducati that was a V4 instead of a twin, i love the 1098 but i cant say i would be bothered what configuration it had in fact i think i would prefer a V4 just on the wonderful noise they make.
Edited by YamR1V64motion on Friday 13th April 01:35
YamR1V64motion said:
they should just build a V4,its not like they cant develop one, a 1000 V4 would be more than a match for the inlines,probably better in fact,how many people would be that bothered if they bought a new Ducati that was a V4 instead of a twin, i love the 1098 but i cant say i would be bothered what configuration it had in fact i think i would prefer a V4 just on the wonderful noise they make.
Edited by YamR1V64motion on Friday 13th April 01:35
Why should they? Ducati have always raced twins and 99% of their road bikes are twins... The rules where changed so that 1000cc fours could race against twins and i don't remember Ducati complaining about it at the time... Now it is obvious that they have a power disadvantage and it is costing a fortune to run their bikes... Think they have a fair case
JS99 said:
YamR1V64motion said:
they should just build a V4,its not like they cant develop one, a 1000 V4 would be more than a match for the inlines,probably better in fact,how many people would be that bothered if they bought a new Ducati that was a V4 instead of a twin, i love the 1098 but i cant say i would be bothered what configuration it had in fact i think i would prefer a V4 just on the wonderful noise they make.
Edited by YamR1V64motion on Friday 13th April 01:35
Why should they? Ducati have always raced twins and 99% of their road bikes are twins... The rules where changed so that 1000cc fours could race against twins and i don't remember Ducati complaining about it at the time... Now it is obvious that they have a power disadvantage and it is costing a fortune to run their bikes... Think they have a fair case
Is it obvious? I dont think it is. And dont fool yourself, once they get the rules they want, they will dedicate the exact same budget to development as they do now, and end up going even quicker.
308mate said:
JS99 said:
YamR1V64motion said:
they should just build a V4,its not like they cant develop one, a 1000 V4 would be more than a match for the inlines,probably better in fact,how many people would be that bothered if they bought a new Ducati that was a V4 instead of a twin, i love the 1098 but i cant say i would be bothered what configuration it had in fact i think i would prefer a V4 just on the wonderful noise they make.
Edited by YamR1V64motion on Friday 13th April 01:35
Why should they? Ducati have always raced twins and 99% of their road bikes are twins... The rules where changed so that 1000cc fours could race against twins and i don't remember Ducati complaining about it at the time... Now it is obvious that they have a power disadvantage and it is costing a fortune to run their bikes... Think they have a fair case
Is it obvious? I dont think it is. And dont fool yourself, once they get the rules they want, they will dedicate the exact same budget to development as they do now, and end up going even quicker.
Have you ever seen Bayliss or Lanzi(well anyone in Lanzi's case
) overtake a four under power... No thought not! Bayliss has been riding the wheels off the bike just to stay in touch,I even rate lanzi very highly but he doesn't quite have troy's pace. If the new rules do take place and Ducati seem to have an advantage, there would be nothing stopping the Japanese building a bike to the same spec, as the rules are the same for all! it's only the same as people tellinmg Ducati to build a four.
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