Are the FIA insane?
Discussion
I have to admit that I'm far from impressed with the Astons's win at Donington Park last weekend. I'm not taking anything away from the skills of the drivers but after the crazy decision to allow them to strip all the weight out of the cars after they perfomed so well at Oulton Park, it was bound to be a foregone conclusion. I really don't know what is going off in the FIA's heads these days. The vipers were miles off the pace the other weekend, and they get a little help. The Astons were on pace and get a HUGE amount of help.
The question that is going through my head is, is the FIA corrupt? Take for instance, the decision to ban the GT3 Mosler. The reasons given were two faced and pathetic, down to the reason that a couple of the Marques (Aston included) said no and so the FIA bowed down to them. Now, the same Marque is being given a free ride through the BGT. They don't even have to try hard. Heck, they even have the luxury of being able to play games on the final lap.
Once again, I must state that I am in no way trying to take anything away from the Barwell team and drivers. They are a great bunch who have worked hard. It's the people at the top that I question. If this carries on then the British GT is going to be very boring this year and worse next year when the teams like those running the vipers decide not to enter since it would be a big waste of their time and money.
The question that is going through my head is, is the FIA corrupt? Take for instance, the decision to ban the GT3 Mosler. The reasons given were two faced and pathetic, down to the reason that a couple of the Marques (Aston included) said no and so the FIA bowed down to them. Now, the same Marque is being given a free ride through the BGT. They don't even have to try hard. Heck, they even have the luxury of being able to play games on the final lap.
Once again, I must state that I am in no way trying to take anything away from the Barwell team and drivers. They are a great bunch who have worked hard. It's the people at the top that I question. If this carries on then the British GT is going to be very boring this year and worse next year when the teams like those running the vipers decide not to enter since it would be a big waste of their time and money.
Unfortunately there seems to be more and more people having the same opinion on this matter!
All of the cars entered into GT3 have to go through a rigorous equalization process that is designed to, with the use of ballast/air restrictors/ride height limits have all of the cars as close as possible in terms of performance.
That’s all great but this does allow Drivers/teams/(randoms) to instantly point the finger at the CAR/CARS not being quick enough, unfair treatment, the FIA being corrupt etc. At the same time discounting the fact that maybe the time difference in the cars could be something to do with the teams and drivers.
At the end of the day what most of these people over look is that
***** The equalization is for the CARS and NOT the DRIVERS *****
Anyways!! I thought a couple of your claims in your nicely constructed 'bitch' at the FIA/Barwell/Aston Martin I have to say are pretty entertaining!
"They don't even have to try hard"
"being given a free ride through the BGT"
“it was bound to be a foregone conclusion”
Happy moaning!!
All of the cars entered into GT3 have to go through a rigorous equalization process that is designed to, with the use of ballast/air restrictors/ride height limits have all of the cars as close as possible in terms of performance.
That’s all great but this does allow Drivers/teams/(randoms) to instantly point the finger at the CAR/CARS not being quick enough, unfair treatment, the FIA being corrupt etc. At the same time discounting the fact that maybe the time difference in the cars could be something to do with the teams and drivers.
At the end of the day what most of these people over look is that
***** The equalization is for the CARS and NOT the DRIVERS *****
Anyways!! I thought a couple of your claims in your nicely constructed 'bitch' at the FIA/Barwell/Aston Martin I have to say are pretty entertaining!
"They don't even have to try hard"
"being given a free ride through the BGT"
“it was bound to be a foregone conclusion”
Happy moaning!!
jonnnny28 said:
Unfortunately there seems to be more and more people having the same opinion on this matter!
All of the cars entered into GT3 have to go through a rigorous equalization process that is designed to, with the use of ballast/air restrictors/ride height limits have all of the cars as close as possible in terms of performance.
That’s all great but this does allow Drivers/teams/(randoms) to instantly point the finger at the CAR/CARS not being quick enough, unfair treatment, the FIA being corrupt etc. At the same time discounting the fact that maybe the time difference in the cars could be something to do with the teams and drivers.
At the end of the day what most of these people over look is that
***** The equalization is for the CARS and NOT the DRIVERS *****
Anyways!! I thought a couple of your claims in your nicely constructed 'bitch' at the FIA/Barwell/Aston Martin I have to say are pretty entertaining!
"They don't even have to try hard"
"being given a free ride through the BGT"
“it was bound to be a foregone conclusion”
Happy moaning!!
All of the cars entered into GT3 have to go through a rigorous equalization process that is designed to, with the use of ballast/air restrictors/ride height limits have all of the cars as close as possible in terms of performance.
That’s all great but this does allow Drivers/teams/(randoms) to instantly point the finger at the CAR/CARS not being quick enough, unfair treatment, the FIA being corrupt etc. At the same time discounting the fact that maybe the time difference in the cars could be something to do with the teams and drivers.
At the end of the day what most of these people over look is that
***** The equalization is for the CARS and NOT the DRIVERS *****
Anyways!! I thought a couple of your claims in your nicely constructed 'bitch' at the FIA/Barwell/Aston Martin I have to say are pretty entertaining!
"They don't even have to try hard"
"being given a free ride through the BGT"
“it was bound to be a foregone conclusion”
Happy moaning!!
I aimed this as a constructive debate, not a moaning session. I notice how you nicely failed to notice what I said about Barwell and the drivers. Please, if you're going to have a pop, at least take on board all that I said and not take parts out of context. If, as you say, more and more people are having the same opinion, doesn't that make you think?
Its true that the equalisation is for cars, but look at how this worked for the BGT: The Vipers were well off the pace of the Astons at Oulton Park. They also had no downforce at all due to the height. Surely, to bring equality, then the Vipers not only had to loose height, but also loose weight to match the Astons. What happened? The Vipers were given 10mm height back and lost 40kg. Sounds ok. But was it? No, because the Astons lost 60kg, in effect widening the margin even more! In fact, technically, the Astons GAINED a 20kg advantage. This is what people can't fathom; why give a car thats already faster, an even bigger advantage?
@williamp: I understand what you are saying, but this is already over 4 races with only 10 more remaining. I just feel for those teams who, as things stand, face what might look like a futile season.
I notice how you nicely failed to notice what I said about Barwell and the drivers. Please, if you're going to have a pop, at least take on board all that I said and not take parts out of context.
And what im saying is that you must believe that if driver X was placed into a viper he would be slower than if he then jumped into an Aston?
And what im saying is that you must believe that if driver X was placed into a viper he would be slower than if he then jumped into an Aston?
jonnnny28 said:
And what im saying is that you must believe that if driver X was placed into a viper he would be slower than if he then jumped into an Aston?
I think that's a fair assumption. Nigel Greensall, in a Viper, wasn't much quicker than Lord Drayson.
The Aston is the class of the field at the mo. After performing so well at Oulton I was surprised to see that they lost weight for Donington.
The team has a year's experience with the car though, which helps hugely.
jonnnny28 said:
And what im saying is that you must believe that if driver X was placed into a viper he would be slower than if he then jumped into an Aston?
Exactly, providing he had the same amount of experience in both cars. I'm talking about the cars potential, not the ability of the drivers. The FIA don't take drivers ability into account when making these decisions.
The result at Donington was by no means a (foregone conclusion)
I think that everyone had a problem of one sort or another at Donington.
What would have been the result if the Lester/Mullen car had been repairable?
Or if the Burton/Wilcox door had closed properly?
Or if the Porsches hadn't been eating tyres!
The only garantee in racing is hindsight!
Barwell have run the cars for a year and are doing a damm good job of running them for a second!
fairplay is what i say! good result
I think that everyone had a problem of one sort or another at Donington.
What would have been the result if the Lester/Mullen car had been repairable?
Or if the Burton/Wilcox door had closed properly?
Or if the Porsches hadn't been eating tyres!
The only garantee in racing is hindsight!
Barwell have run the cars for a year and are doing a damm good job of running them for a second!
fairplay is what i say! good result
there are several problems here...
1) equalisation is done for FIA GT, not brit GT, having different tyres makes any parrallel almost pointless.
2) GT3 is contrived whichever way you look at it, basically, you buy an off the shelf car and hope that you have picked the one that's not going to get knobbled as much as the others.
3) the level of politics here is way out of control, the racing seems to be at best, the last consideration.
4) the std of driving this year is laughable.
I love proper GT racing, (along with ELMS etc) but GT3 (as we seem to have it) flys in the face of true racing....
1) equalisation is done for FIA GT, not brit GT, having different tyres makes any parrallel almost pointless.
2) GT3 is contrived whichever way you look at it, basically, you buy an off the shelf car and hope that you have picked the one that's not going to get knobbled as much as the others.
3) the level of politics here is way out of control, the racing seems to be at best, the last consideration.
4) the std of driving this year is laughable.
I love proper GT racing, (along with ELMS etc) but GT3 (as we seem to have it) flys in the face of true racing....
I've just read the article on dsc about the barwell team especially the comments from Chris Needell and Mark Lemmer, in particular the 5th point about equalisation. There are some very good points made there. Since this was a debate thread and not a rant, then I'm quite happy to accept the points made there. It does however back up the point that the same driver in an Aston would have been quicker than if he were in a Viper. The article definately makes for some interesting reading. It will be interesting also to read the article on equalisation yet to come.
Have to say, the comments from Barnwell are all valid.
the issue here is one of GT3 itself, last year we saw how with sufficent howling and playing politics got cars removed from the grid, this year looks to be no different, with them all crying foul over equalisation (and note the first team to do this...)
The problem is quite simple to understand, whist you have proffessional teams doing a proffessional job, it's very easy for another team to just buy a car in, then bitch that they are off the pace and the equalisation is wrong (for them/others).
this then ends up that he who shouts the loudest and get's the breaks stands the best chance of winning, which sort of flys in the face of the winner being the best drivers in the best prepared cars.
the issue here is one of GT3 itself, last year we saw how with sufficent howling and playing politics got cars removed from the grid, this year looks to be no different, with them all crying foul over equalisation (and note the first team to do this...)
The problem is quite simple to understand, whist you have proffessional teams doing a proffessional job, it's very easy for another team to just buy a car in, then bitch that they are off the pace and the equalisation is wrong (for them/others).
this then ends up that he who shouts the loudest and get's the breaks stands the best chance of winning, which sort of flys in the face of the winner being the best drivers in the best prepared cars.
Actually, in the FIA GT3 European Championship the drivers ARE balanced as well! Professional drivers such as Mullen, Simonsen and Cocker are not allowed in at all. All non-professional drivers are FIA graded 'Gold', 'Silver' or 'Bronze'. A Gold can only share with a Bronze, a Silver can share with a Silver, etc. It has produced closer racing in the Euro series than BGT.
The point made above about tyres is also valid. Michelin have more experience with GT cars and make mega consistent tyres. Avon have less experience and this is still showing despite their best efforts - no doubt it will come good if they keep working at it but it's proving a painful learning curve for all involved.
Ref. the Barwell Aston performances, well... they're professionals and will use any advantage they can get to win. You can't accuse other teams of moaning when they complain about a situation where the ultimate gentleman driver (yes m'lord) has to dawdle around for half a lap at the end of the race for the others to catch up! Get real! And then due to his inexperience causes complete mayhem and loses the win! Doesn't compute does it?
So why are the DBs running out of fuel this year when they weren't last year? Did their fuel tanks shrink over the winter? Nope? Well they must be using more fuel then! What do you think more fuel makes when you put it in an engine? More power! The team has openly stated that they were remapping their cars overnight at Donnington - how can performance balancing work if you don't fix the mapping? It's easy for the scrutineer to measure weight, ride height and tyre codes, so what does that leave?
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, look at the facts and make your own decision.
The point made above about tyres is also valid. Michelin have more experience with GT cars and make mega consistent tyres. Avon have less experience and this is still showing despite their best efforts - no doubt it will come good if they keep working at it but it's proving a painful learning curve for all involved.
Ref. the Barwell Aston performances, well... they're professionals and will use any advantage they can get to win. You can't accuse other teams of moaning when they complain about a situation where the ultimate gentleman driver (yes m'lord) has to dawdle around for half a lap at the end of the race for the others to catch up! Get real! And then due to his inexperience causes complete mayhem and loses the win! Doesn't compute does it?
So why are the DBs running out of fuel this year when they weren't last year? Did their fuel tanks shrink over the winter? Nope? Well they must be using more fuel then! What do you think more fuel makes when you put it in an engine? More power! The team has openly stated that they were remapping their cars overnight at Donnington - how can performance balancing work if you don't fix the mapping? It's easy for the scrutineer to measure weight, ride height and tyre codes, so what does that leave?
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, look at the facts and make your own decision.
One point from the dsc statement crosses my mind. The talk about how certain tracks suit them more thsn others. Why is this? It's because the Astons are heavier but have more top speed, making them slower in the corners. What they fail to point out is that the viper has a similar make up weight wise and therefore will suffer the same problems. Therefore, there is no comparison that can be made. They infer that the rest of the field will have the advantage on other track,s where as nothing could be further from the truth. Intersting how words were juggled there.
Yellow Fever said:
So why are the DBs running out of fuel this year when they weren't last year? Did their fuel tanks shrink over the winter? Nope? Well they must be using more fuel then! What do you think more fuel makes when you put it in an engine? More power! The team has openly stated that they were remapping their cars overnight at Donnington - how can performance balancing work if you don't fix the mapping? It's easy for the scrutineer to measure weight, ride height and tyre codes, so what does that leave?
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, look at the facts and make your own decision.
I think you will find that the bio fueled car uses a shed load more fuel than the petrol ones.
as this is the first year they have run the car, I guess they are still learning it's consumption rates at different ccts etc.
the comment on driver paring is also not valid BGT have a pro driver adjustment too, (although I would agree some f the drivers out there are just plain scary).
I think the 'Facts' as you put it are still very much un-known at this point.
Scuffers said:
Yellow Fever said:
So why are the DBs running out of fuel this year when they weren't last year? Did their fuel tanks shrink over the winter? Nope? Well they must be using more fuel then! What do you think more fuel makes when you put it in an engine? More power! The team has openly stated that they were remapping their cars overnight at Donnington - how can performance balancing work if you don't fix the mapping? It's easy for the scrutineer to measure weight, ride height and tyre codes, so what does that leave?
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, look at the facts and make your own decision.
I think you will find that the bio fueled car uses a shed load more fuel than the petrol ones.
as this is the first year they have run the car, I guess they are still learning it's consumption rates at different ccts etc.
the comment on driver paring is also not valid BGT have a pro driver adjustment too, (although I would agree some f the drivers out there are just plain scary).
I think the 'Facts' as you put it are still very much un-known at this point.
I think the rules would have been much clearer is James Tucker wrote them (I just couldn't resist that one!).
Regarding the driver pairings, the theory is good, but you can have an amateur driver who is x-amount faster than a pro driver, pair the great amateur with a good pro, in a good car, and up the front you go. Shorty was (is) considered an amateur driver because Rollcentre/Mosler Europe is his primary job, not driving, yet I'd put Martin up against quite a few so called pro's any day. Thomas Bscher is/was quite handy too, and with his little job, he's not a pro either!
Then you could be Fluxy and partnered by Kevin. Poor ol' Fluxy.
I'm watching the Donington race on Motors right now. I can't believe the club racing style mistakes made by Mr Riley. Now I know Fluxy is a good mentor, so Kevin, listen to the man.
The bio-fuel cars will use up to 40% (by volume) more fuel for any given distance. Yet they can produce more power to compensate for the extra weight they have to carry.
Simon - are you going to run the Prosport in the GT90's series then? eh? I see someone has entered one. Careful they don't upset the Porsche boys, they'll get booted up to GT1!!!!!
thunderbelmont said:
[quote=Scuffers][quote=Yellow Fever]
Simon - are you going to run the Prosport in the GT90's series then? eh? I see someone has entered one. Careful they don't upset the Porsche boys, they'll get booted up to GT1!!!!!
Simon - are you going to run the Prosport in the GT90's series then? eh? I see someone has entered one. Careful they don't upset the Porsche boys, they'll get booted up to GT1!!!!!
thought had crossed my mind! you can just imagine how welcome it would be....
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